Deceased/Not Found SD - Catherine Tornquist, 56, Hot Springs, 5 Oct 2011 *M. Tornquist guilty*

Slyon, it is the South Dakota Division of Criminal Investigation's website, located in Pierre.

I will contact Fall River County Sheriff Rich Mraz who has been over seeing the searches and Special Agent Pat West is directing the private investigation and see if either one of them can fix the website. Sorry, I keep forgetting to do this; I am up to me knees and elbows into Cath's investigation and have been forgetting a lot of the smaller details. I have now placed this on my case list of things to do and will let you know what I find out. It could just be antiquated software that requires a much needed upgrade or replacement.
slyon
 
Slyon, it is the South Dakota Division of Criminal Investigation's website, located in Pierre.

I will contact Fall River County Sheriff Rich Mraz who has been over seeing the searches and Special Agent Pat West who is directing the private investigation and see if either one of them can fix the website. I know that both of them have posters on the web for Catherine, so it wouldn't hurt to mention this to the two of them.
Sorry, I keep forgetting to do this; I am up to me knees and elbows into Cath's investigation and have been forgetting a lot of the smaller details. I have now placed this on my case list of things to do, and will let you know what I find out. It could just be antiquated software that requires a much needed upgrade or replacement.
slyon
 
The investigation is moving full steam ahead, hopefully soon the public with be informed. Sorry for the duplicate post, not sure how that happens, but when I cut and past to do a spell check and come back to post it, I find myself somehow duplicating the post and I can't figure out how to delete it.
 
Is the "private investigation" being conducted by investigators hired by the family? Ex-boyfriend is a RSO and her son has been indicted for stealing firearms....is he in jail? I know...I know...the privacy issue.

Hi Amster,
I think you are talking about my Sister, and no she has not been found, but the woman Constance Beyer was found and not Catherine Tornquist. Still, it is wonderful news that Constance was indeed found!
 
Rapid City Journal - Investigations continue

<snip>
Likewise, the Tornquist disappearance investigation continues, as more than three-and-a-half months have gone past since the Hot Springs woman embarked for Rapid City with a significant amount of cash to purchase a camper and never arrived.
"We hope to be able to release some information soon, but have nothing at this point that we can share," Mraz said.
 
I was speaking yesterday with someone who lives in Hot Springs; I asked what they thought of Catherine's disappearance and they knew nothing about it.
 
I was speaking yesterday with someone who lives in Hot Springs; I asked what they thought of Catherine's disappearance and they knew nothing about it.

That's odd... Is media there really that bad? I understand the Black Hills region encompasses a large region. But, Hot Springs isn't that large... population-wise.
 
I was speaking yesterday with someone who lives in Hot Springs; I asked what they thought of Catherine's disappearance and they knew nothing about it.

Hi Jacie,
I talk to people that are in Hot Springs at least three times a week, many did know Catherine and some are currently still looking for her. There is a lot of activity going on with her case, especially now.
I myself am working very hard for the case, along with her inner family members, we are all fully engaged with tasks specifically just for Catherine.
We love her deeply.
Slyon
 
SD tends to keep quiet about investigations. They have always been pretty tight lipped. If the case is solved then then you're likely to know more, but they won't do anything that might jepordize the case.
 
SD tends to keep quiet about investigations. They have always been pretty tight lipped. If the case is solved then then you're likely to know more, but they won't do anything that might jepordize the case.
Agreed somewhat. But if there is the chance that it won't be solved soon, then why hide stuff? Providing details can help a case.
 
That's odd... Is media there really that bad? I understand the Black Hills region encompasses a large region. But, Hot Springs isn't that large... population-wise.


Hi M86,
I tend to think that it is not so much that the media is lacking on their part, as much as I am lead to believe they just don't have anything to report with, since the information about my Sister's case has not leaked out, which surprises my family and I that it has not been part of any of those public avenues of information.


And exactly, Snowbunny, Catherine's case just happens to be one of those cases where it is extremely important for the investigation to remain private at this point. Unfortunately when that happens, the public can feel like there is nothing going on or being done with those cases, which in my Sister's case, the opposite is true, a lot of activity is happening with her case, it is just not shared with the public for several reasons at this time.

Investigations can be private to protect people from harm while it is in progress, to solidify the case without any outside interference, and to conceal high profile cases that the media could place in the wrong lime light and possibly alter a future jury with bias, or to privately gather more information from other people that would not respond if the case did go public. Those are just a few reasons, but there are many more reasons that a case will remain private until it is ready to be viewed by the public, it can be a serious game of cat and mouse that can't be taken lightly, especially when other lives are at stake while a suspect is still at large and on the loose.

And if a case still has a person missing, sometimes the search for that person in and of itself can be altered through the media if it was publically known, i.e. searching for someone via the electronic worlds or through information technologies, and through informants.

There are so many things that a private case can do, that an open to the public case could not. And if you can keep in mind that there are laws that protect information from ever going public, as in medical and mental health records that would be directly involved in a case; or any personal information about any individual that is affiliated with the case.

And there are aspects to every case that are considered private and always will be, no case is completely private though either, just the same as, no case is completely public either. Investigations are very detailed, and I know as a family member of a missing person, that it is essential that we look at the case from many different angles and perspectives in order to really grasp the big picture.

There are federal court laws, state laws that can make cases even more complicated. We had to learn how to review our Sister's case from an investigative point of view in order to understand the many facets and angles that a case could venture down.

All just the same, sleuthing is not an easy task when it is done openly since then one is subject to interference from others whom know how to work the laws to their favor regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty of a crime, so they can easily play a game of chess with the known facts of a case to manipulate an outcome in their favor.

There are many people that are involved in my Sister's case for instance, but it is all been handled mostly privately, thus most people would not be aware on the surface.
I know personally that hundreds of people specifically know about my Sister's case right now, that live in Hot Springs and neighboring towns due to documents, emails, and other information avenues that have been given to me.
Many agencies and professionals are also involved, so most people that are connected to any form of law enforcement, court or justice systems, or supporting agencies are all very aware of what is going on currently with Catherine's case, yet none of those aspects and events are known to the public.
Think about it for a minute if you will; that is why a case that is considered private, is not publicly known, because, well, it needs the privacy, and there are laws set in place that protect that privacy as well. There is nothing random about it, everything is precisely calculated for a reason.
slyon
 
Hi M86,
I tend to think that it is not so much that the media is lacking on their part, as much as I am lead to believe they just don't have anything to report with, since the information about my Sister's case has not leaked out, which surprises my family and I that it has not been part of any of those public avenues of information.


And exactly, Snowbunny, Catherine's case just happens to be one of those cases where it is extremely important for the investigation to remain private at this point. Unfortunately when that happens, the public can feel like there is nothing going on or being done with those cases, which in my Sister's case, the opposite is true, a lot of activity is happening with her case, it is just not shared with the public for several reasons at this time.

Investigations can be private to protect people from harm while it is in progress, to solidify the case without any outside interference, and to conceal high profile cases that the media could place in the wrong lime light and possibly alter a future jury with bias, or to privately gather more information from other people that would not respond if the case did go public. Those are just a few reasons, but there are many more reasons that a case will remain private until it is ready to be viewed by the public, it can be a serious game of cat and mouse that can't be taken lightly, especially when other lives are at stake while a suspect is still at large and on the loose.

And if a case still has a person missing, sometimes the search for that person in and of itself can be altered through the media if it was publically known, i.e. searching for someone via the electronic worlds or through information technologies, and through informants.

There are so many things that a private case can do, that an open to the public case could not. And if you can keep in mind that there are laws that protect information from ever going public, as in medical and mental health records that would be directly involved in a case; or any personal information about any individual that is affiliated with the case.

And there are aspects to every case that are considered private and always will be, no case is completely private though either, just the same as, no case is completely public either. Investigations are very detailed, and I know as a family member of a missing person, that it is essential that we look at the case from many different angles and perspectives in order to really grasp the big picture.

There are federal court laws, state laws that can make cases even more complicated. We had to learn how to review our Sister's case from an investigative point of view in order to understand the many facets and angles that a case could venture down.

All just the same, sleuthing is not an easy task when it is done openly since then one is subject to interference from others whom know how to work the laws to their favor regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty of a crime, so they can easily play a game of chess with the known facts of a case to manipulate an outcome in their favor.

There are many people that are involved in my Sister's case for instance, but it is all been handled mostly privately, thus most people would not be aware on the surface.
I know personally that hundreds of people specifically know about my Sister's case right now, that live in Hot Springs and neighboring towns due to documents, emails, and other information avenues that have been given to me.
Many agencies and professionals are also involved, so most people that are connected to any form of law enforcement, court or justice systems, or supporting agencies are all very aware of what is going on currently with Catherine's case, yet none of those aspects and events are known to the public.
Think about it for a minute if you will; that is why a case that is considered private, is not publicly known, because, well, it needs the privacy, and there are laws set in place that protect that privacy as well. There is nothing random about it, everything is precisely calculated for a reason.
slyon

Thank you so much, Slyon... I needed that explanation, really. From an outside point of view, it's very easy to get frustrated. We all have a common goal: Finding Catherine. I just hope everyone involved that are investigating Catherine's disappearance are doing everything they can to find her. I also know that Hot Springs is a small town, and sometimes the resources, etc are limited or are inadequate. I just hope everything that is being done is, in fact, being done. And if someone is responsible for Catherine's disappearance, that they are held fully responsible.

Hope you are doing well, Slyon! If I or anyone else comes off as prying, please remember, we're just trying to solve this or come to some sort of conclusion!
 
Is the "private investigation" being conducted by investigators hired by the family? Ex-boyfriend is a RSO and her son has been indicted for stealing firearms....is he in jail? I know...I know...the privacy issue.


The investigation is being held by the South Dakota DCI of which the FBI can over see, this is the standard procedure.
Our family has hired outside support for the case as well, sometimes information specialists or other kinds of investigators can aid in understanding certain aspects of a case and can also help locate missing people through other avenues other than physical searches.
As I have said before, "there be no rocks unturned", and there are a lot of eyes looking over the case with many professionals from different angles that are coming from many sectors of the legal and law systems. The case is moving through the legal system as is appropriately for this type of case to move, and it is moving at a pace that is also appropriate for it to do so at this time. Everything is being monitored, it is how the law systems work.
Please see above threads concerning the Son, yes he has been indited, that is not a secret, it is public information.
Thank you for your concern Amster.
 
The investigation is being held by the South Dakota DCI of which the FBI can over see, this is the standard procedure.
Our family has hired outside support for the case as well, sometimes information specialists or other kinds of investigators can aid in understanding certain aspects of a case and can also help locate missing people through other avenues other than physical searches.
As I have said before, "there be no rocks unturned", and there are a lot of eyes looking over the case with many professionals from different angles that are coming from many sectors of the legal and law systems. The case is moving through the legal system as is appropriately for this type of case to move, and it is moving at a pace that is also appropriate for it to do so at this time. Everything is being monitored, it is how the law systems work.
Please see above threads concerning the Son, yes he has been indited, that is not a secret, it is public information.
Thank you for your concern Amster.

Slyon, I will admit I did a 360... I am so glad you hired an outside source to investigate this... I love my home state of South Dakota, but those small town LE's are not familiar with these type of cases (I'm very familiar with Hot Springs).

Always thinking of Catherine... Hope you are doing well, Slyon.
 
Agreed somewhat. But if there is the chance that it won't be solved soon, then why hide stuff? Providing details can help a case.


From what I can see and what I have learned from working on my Sis's case, they are very aware of when to bring the public involved and when to make sure the public is not involved. They hide things for very good reasons such as other people's safety and to make sure that no one can jeopardize the case.
Every decision they make in going public or private is precisely calculated and strategically measured and weighted through analysis in my own Sister's case.

And from what I have learned, if the public could help in the way that we need help, I personally have already tried to get that to happen, unfortunately the public does not understand how to do that effectively, every body thinks it is all about doing some kind of ground search and that is hardly the case since the investigators already do that up front. The real search is for "indicators" that can lead to a missing person.
Just a thought.
slyon
 
Slyon, I will admit I did a 360... I am so glad you hired an outside source to investigate this... I love my home state of South Dakota, but those small town LE's are not familiar with these type of cases (I'm very familiar with Hot Springs).

Always thinking of Catherine... Hope you are doing well, Slyon.


Thank you so much for your candidness M86, I just love it when other straight talk to me, instead of "candy coating" their replies lest they fear they might offend me, yet they most cerainly would not. I wish everyone would talk to me like that.

Yes, our family has noticed how some home town LE's can be, however, we have learned how to find the movers and shakers and doers that can make things happen, and if they don't understand the complexities of a case, if they are civically responsible and conscious people in their perspective professions, they will be motivated enough to get the information that they are lacking and will access that knowledge by pulling in those officials into the case, even if it means out of state officials.

Experts have been pulled in to help aid in my Sis's case, and that was not initiated by our family, but it was the case itself that initiated it due to it's own unique needs, and try to keep in mind that even though the FBI is mostly a federal association, state level officials that work on cases can access the FBI's knowledge and expertise for their information in solving cases, it is a team effort, and there are many individuals similar to this that are involved in solving the more detailed cases such as ours.

I also have access to quite a few powerful people in high profile professions to aid in the case that were given to me as the case proceeded forward and called out for that kind of professional support and expertise.

Bottom line, in a way you are correct as you pointed out M86, it is extremely important for families to get actively involved in any of their missing family member cases, or yes, there is a possibility that it might not land in the right hands that would take that extra leap of effort in working through the more complex parts of a case.
But at the same time; not all people are uncaring in those crime solving positions, some very diligent and critical thinking professionals have done some extensive work in solving our case.

I can say this, I personally spend a lot of time on the case, it is not easy, there are days that I am on the phone for 10 hours at a time, or researching tedious information for hours every day, since each activity is under a time frame. It truly takes everyone's effort involved and that includes the family; we as a family can do things that officials cannot, the officials can do things that we cannot, outside professionals that could be hired can also do things that neither we nor the officials could do as well.

One other important note, if anyone is basing their judgments and opinions of any State's LE's, they need to make sure that their discernment is not based on "hear say", I personally heard rumors that were debunked that even came from others that were in LE positions themselves. Sometimes people spread rumors of how crappy an official or even an entire department was, when in truth it was only how it appeared from their corner of the room. I heard terrible things about officials, and some were even given to me incorrectly, such as someone saying so and so is working on the case and messing it up, but the truth was, that official never even saw the case, it was not only the wrong official, but it was also the wrong department for that action to have happened.

People in professional positions have told me that my Sister was dead and that they found her, they have told me that her case has gone to court, they have said that she is living in another state, and none of these rumors were true, I could go on and on and on, even though all these rumors supposedly came from officials or people working in high status professions themselves. It is what people do when the public is not informed (the public includes law officials and even court professionals that are not involved in the case, that really means, they don't know anything), they misinterpret what little details that they over hear in let's say, a court office, or a police department, or a restaurant, or a bank for instance, which happens in small towns.

One thing is for sure, my family is fully aware of everything that is happening in the case, and we know how fast or slow everything is moving, and we know why, and what procedure or law set in place is creating the order in which those actions are done in, we know how much effort is put into each task as well, there is not much activity that is hidden from our view.

And we are not the only ones watching the case this closely, there are several officials in different sectors of the law watching the same activity that we are. Everything is under close radar and is being monitored with critical careful thinking and watchful eyes.

As a missing person family, you learn as you go along how to work the system and how to find those key people that will help you on your journey through the process, it is possible, our family is doing just that, we are all currently fully immersed in it right now.

Family's of missing people also have access to the Division of Criminal Investigation for Victim/Witness Programs which are very helpful in attaining information that is needed, crime victims rights, and the criminal court procedures and processes. Families also have access to the General Attorney, State Attorney, the Special Agent that is overseeing the case, and the Sheriff's Department that aids in the searches, and even the FBI when called for. And these people talk to all four of us relatives (we are the only ones that know about the case outside of the appointed officials) on a regular basis of which I am one of them.

But I know, from a town person's point of view, that sees no news in the newspaper or on the internet, and only hears incorrect rumors from supposed officials, that it can appear disheartening and it is no wonder that others would then believe that their town's law agencies aren't doing diddly squat, I truly can understand how that would happen.

Hope this helps in understanding what it is like to be standing on the other side of the fence of a crime case.
slyon
 
Thank you so much for your candidness M86, I just love it when other straight talk to me, instead of "candy coating" their replies lest they fear they might offend me, yet they most cerainly would not. I wish everyone would talk to me like that.

Yes, our family has noticed how some home town LE's can be, however, we have learned how to find the movers and shakers and doers that can make things happen, and if they don't understand the complexities of a case, if they are civically responsible and conscious people in their perspective professions, they will be motivated enough to get the information that they are lacking and will access that knowledge by pulling in those officials into the case, even if it means out of state officials.

Experts have been pulled in to help aid in my Sis's case, and that was not initiated by our family, but it was the case itself that initiated it due to it's own unique needs, and try to keep in mind that even though the FBI is mostly a federal association, state level officials that work on cases can access the FBI's knowledge and expertise for their information in solving cases, it is a team effort, and there are many individuals similar to this that are involved in solving the more detailed cases such as ours.

I also have access to quite a few powerful people in high profile professions to aid in the case that were given to me as the case proceeded forward and called out for that kind of professional support and expertise.

Bottom line, in a way you are correct as you pointed out M86, it is extremely important for families to get actively involved in any of their missing family member cases, or yes, there is a possibility that it might not land in the right hands that would take that extra leap of effort in working through the more complex parts of a case.
But at the same time; not all people are uncaring in those crime solving positions, some very diligent and critical thinking professionals have done some extensive work in solving our case.

I can say this, I personally spend a lot of time on the case, it is not easy, there are days that I am on the phone for 10 hours at a time, or researching tedious information for hours every day, since each activity is under a time frame. It truly takes everyone's effort involved and that includes the family; we as a family can do things that officials cannot, the officials can do things that we cannot, outside professionals that could be hired can also do things that neither we nor the officials could do as well.

One other important note, if anyone is basing their judgments and opinions of any State's LE's, they need to make sure that their discernment is not based on "hear say", I personally heard rumors that were debunked that even came from others that were in LE positions themselves. Sometimes people spread rumors of how crappy an official or even an entire department was, when in truth it was only how it appeared from their corner of the room. I heard terrible things about officials, and some were even given to me incorrectly, such as someone saying so and so is working on the case and messing it up, but the truth was, that official never even saw the case, it was not only the wrong official, but it was also the wrong department for that action to have happened.

People in professional positions have told me that my Sister was dead and that they found her, they have told me that her case has gone to court, they have said that she is living in another state, and none of these rumors were true, I could go on and on and on, even though all these rumors supposedly came from officials or people working in high status professions themselves. It is what people do when the public is not informed (the public includes law officials and even court professionals that are not involved in the case, that really means, they don't know anything), they misinterpret what little details that they over hear in let's say, a court office, or a police department, or a restaurant, or a bank for instance, which happens in small towns.

One thing is for sure, my family is fully aware of everything that is happening in the case, and we know how fast or slow everything is moving, and we know why, and what procedure or law set in place is creating the order in which those actions are done in, we know how much effort is put into each task as well, there is not much activity that is hidden from our view.

And we are not the only ones watching the case this closely, there are several officials in different sectors of the law watching the same activity that we are. Everything is under close radar and is being monitored with critical careful thinking and watchful eyes.

As a missing person family, you learn as you go along how to work the system and how to find those key people that will help you on your journey through the process, it is possible, our family is doing just that, we are all currently fully immersed in it right now.

Family's of missing people also have access to the Division of Criminal Investigation for Victim/Witness Programs which are very helpful in attaining information that is needed, crime victims rights, and the criminal court procedures and processes. Families also have access to the General Attorney, State Attorney, the Special Agent that is overseeing the case, and the Sheriff's Department that aids in the searches, and even the FBI when called for. And these people talk to all four of us relatives (we are the only ones that know about the case outside of the appointed officials) on a regular basis of which I am one of them.

But I know, from a town person's point of view, that sees no news in the newspaper or on the internet, and only hears incorrect rumors from supposed officials, that it can appear disheartening and it is no wonder that others would then believe that their town's law agencies aren't doing diddly squat, I truly can understand how that would happen.

Hope this helps in understanding what it is like to be standing on the other side of the fence of a crime case.
slyon

Slyon, I totally understand. Missing peoples' cases are very hard to work from. My hope is that they focus on who they should... It's obvious to me. I love the Black Hills (actually will be there camping in May 2012 :)), but I can see how the investigation can be very flawed (Small town LE's/State). I am in no way bashing those LE's or the State organizations... I just know that sometimes more is needed.
I think this is a case where it's apparent on who is responsible for Catherine's' disappearance... but not enough evidence.
 
Thank you so much, Slyon... I needed that explanation, really. From an outside point of view, it's very easy to get frustrated. We all have a common goal: Finding Catherine. I just hope everyone involved that are investigating Catherine's disappearance are doing everything they can to find her. I also know that Hot Springs is a small town, and sometimes the resources, etc are limited or are inadequate. I just hope everything that is being done is, in fact, being done. And if someone is responsible for Catherine's disappearance, that they are held fully responsible.

Hope you are doing well, Slyon! If I or anyone else comes off as prying, please remember, we're just trying to solve this or come to some sort of conclusion!

Your welcome M86, and thanks, I'm doing okay, not great, this is very difficult,
no part of being a family member of a missing person is easy.

And just know that just because a case is private doesn't mean that the public cannot help the case. I am trying desperately to find a South Dakota platform on the net where I can talk to the public and help them understand how they can help her case. Unfortunately, I have talked to hundreds of people from that area but they don't seem to understand the message that I am trying to convey, even though it is extremely simple. The problem is if they don't have much sleuthing experience, they will not know what to look for when talking to others about a missing person.
But I know that a complete stranger, whom would know absolutely nothing about my Sister, could walk around her town and ask about her and could learn a lot about her in a fairly short length of time. I know this because I have had people do just that.
Then, once those people know about her, they can then ask about events, and there are plenty of events in any human's life. Those events, and that knowledge of her can lead to "indicators" of what has happened. How else do you think private investigators do it, they do it the same way that I just described, they start with nothing, and search until they have enough information to piece the puzzle pieces together.

The problem comes in when people are unaware that they are looking at the facts from a biased point of view.
Others have told me what they think has happened or whom they think is responsible by basing their hunches on those very prejudices that they don't seem to notice.
Example; I think John Doe didn't do anything to Jane Doe because Jane liked that person, well that is two assumptions, one, that Jane really liked that person, and two that Jane had good judgment of whom she was friends with. Or I know John Doe and he would never do that, well if anyone had done a background check on John Doe they would have never said that. Or, John Doe had to have been the reason that Jane is missing because he has a criminal background and knew her well, but some people with criminal backgrounds are rehabilitated, and I know family members that don't even know their own family members, so how do you know that he knew her well.
Those are just a few examples of how people process unknown crimes in their minds, it is hard for them to see how the foundation that they base their assumptions on are faulty to begin with since they are based on logical fallacies and biased point of views.
That is why the world has private investigators, they know what to look for and can view things though an unbiased perspective.
So could the public help?, yes they could, they just don't know how to do that. And one of the strangest things that really surprised me was that people really don't want to talk to the family of missing people, they just don't. I have given my email to hundreds of people, and I have even talked on the phone to quite a few as well and they will talk maybe two or three times if I'm lucky and that's about all. Then I will hear that they have plenty to say, since I will bump into people who know them, but they just won't tell the family anything, I just hear it through the gossip mills, because they think the subject content is too graphic, or the information would be too much of a character discredit of someone involved, or that they fear upsetting us emotionally in general.

Thus, the family is forced into hiring outside help and to keep working with the professionals that are assigned to the different aspects of the case. I still call people and will always seek more information, but for the most part, we are working on this pretty much on our own due to those circumstances.

I do relate to your frustration though, I get an ear full of the public's frustration about twice a week through second hand gossip just so I don't forget how they feel, it is hard on us because we can't help them in understanding how this whole process works because they won't talk to us, and that's the problem, they talk among themselves, but not to us.

This is how it feels to be the family of the missing person, we can receive disheartening news from the professionals, we can receive the complaints from the public, we can be solicited by the media, we can have several family members that disagree about the case and can cause tension, and all the while we have to keep trying to work on the case, it is mentally and emotionally completely exhausting. Protection becomes a full time job, protecting information and other family members feelings from getting overloaded.

Also, I even fear sharing this with you M86, because you might read this and decide on your own (instead of asking me how I feel) that you shouldn't talk to me about your frustration anymore since I am going through so much. The truth is, I want others to ask me and to talk to me and allow me the right to decide what I can or cannot handle, instead of them always making those decisions for me.

If I could say one thing to the public it would be; Talk to me!
But I can't,,,,,, cause they think the case is private so they "assume" I can't say anything at all, and they "assume" what I am feeling about things, and decide that I can't handle talking to them.

As I have told you before, I do appreciate your unadorned honesty M86, you can't possibly offend me by asking me questions and sharing your frustrations, it is most understandable for you to want to wonder why these cases are like this and to express your emotions on how it feels to be on the outside without knowing. I feel exactly the same as you, I am on the inside with the knowing, and I feel just as frustrated as you do and I have the same number of questions that you have, it's funny, we both feel the same way, no greener grass over here either. lol
slyon
 

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