13 Separate Similarities Convinces Handwriting Expert

[SewingDeb]

I'm afraid this "expert" is taking a flying gamble to get his name promoted. The old Karr writing samples I saw on screen had little resemblance to the note. And we're still trying to place Karr closer than 1500 miles to the crime scene and that has to come first...along with establishng that he'd ever even heard of the Ramseys in 1996.

It should also be noted that if Karr is determined to be famous for being involved, he could give writing samples now that are deliberately similar to the note. If he decided to make himself JonBenet's "lover" 6 years ago, he could have modified his writing at that time to be similar. All this stuff is on line and has been for years. (A Boulder reporter last night excitedly noted that in emails Karr knew where the newspaper was, showing he had been to Boulder...or maybe Karr just googles."

Good point.

Do you know if this handwriting expert from the first post in this thread is the same one that was quoted on The Lineup this weekend? Or is that yet another expert?

 

[kelly london]

i have reviewed the RN and patsy's handwriting. i am convinced SHE wrote the note. the comparisions are eerie to me, almost identical in many cases.

 

[pinto]

...I could match something from the ransom note to every soul on this board, if given a sample. ...

That's what I think, too, after seeing how they do it. I have a stack of about 350 forms filled out by elementary school parents on my desk here at home. I went through a chunk of them and it's really quite easy to find instances of letters and combinations that match things the RN ... so I think the killer lives near me.

Not only that, the closest match is our PTO president!! :crazy:

 

[Peter Hamilton]

kellylondon--totally agree--after seeing those links,its hard to doubt that Patsy is the author

 

[scandi]

I thought they used the HS annual to compare handwriting, which was 10 years before the ransom note.

Scandi

 

[Buzz Mills]

That's what I think, too, after seeing how they do it. I have a stack of about 350 forms filled out by elementary school parents on my desk here at home. I went through a chunk of them and it's really quite easy to find instances of letters and combinations that match things the RN ... so I think the killer lives near me.

Not only that, the closest match is our PTO president!! :crazy:

LOL pinto, and your morning horoscope just happened to say that this is going to be a very rewarding day for you. Lucky you!!

 

[Becba]

If this goes to trial can PR's handwriting be brought up as a defense for Jk's?

 

[Wudge]

I thought they used the HS annual to compare handwriting, which was 10 years before the ransom note.

Scandi

Correct. More than any other time period, experts will want samples of his handwriting from the years 1995 to 1997.

I think the aspect of the referenced note in his High School year book that gives strong hope Karr is telling the truth is that he ended it with :Shall Be The Conqueror. And the ransom note ended with the mysterious S.B.T.C. along with "Victory".

His way of closing years earlier perfects the closing in the ransom note. If he is not the killer, that coincidence belongs in Ripleys.

 

[Wudge]

If this goes to trial can PR's handwriting be brought up as a defense for Jk's?

For various reasons, the answer would be: No. Moreover, please remember that CBI scored the similarities in Patsy's handwriting samples versus the ransom note at a level that place her close to exclusion (low liklihood).

 

[BBB167893]

"If this goes to trial can PR's handwriting be brought up as a defense for Jk's?"

Yep!

Damn, even I've never seen those comparison's before! I am outdone! I concede!

"But not close enough hey Wudge."

It was the experts hired by the Ramseys who scored her that ridiculous "1-5" scale, folks, not the CBI examiner. In fact, Ubowski, the CBI examiner, said that the writing showed indications of it being Patsy. He also said that the exemplars he worked with didn't show the full range of her handwriting and that it was the bleeding ink from the pen that kept him from naming her for sure. Remember that.

"In my opinion Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note with her opposite hand. This would account for the instances where the curvature of some of the letters don't quite match up perfectly."

Ted Widmer agrees. He matched letters from her left hand to the note perfectly.

One more thing: on MSNBC, David Liebman, a handwriting expert, said this Karr might have written it, based on TWO things, but don't forget, he wrote this:

OPINION

There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
the ransom note for it to be coincidence.

Although many writers share some of the same traits found among other authors, as the number of
identifiable traits increases,- the likelihood of two people sharing the same handwriting decreases
dramatically.

In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note
writer (51), the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical.

Taken individually, the similarities are not nearly as compelling as the sheer numbers and combinations
found in both the writing of Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note.

In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.

David S. Liebman, C.D.E.

And in THAT case, he had much more to work with, by his own admission.

 

[Wudge]

"If this goes to trial can PR's handwriting be brought up as a defense for Jk's?"

Yep!

Damn, even I've never seen those comparison's before! I am outdone! I concede!

"But not close enough hey Wudge."

It was the experts hired by the Ramseys who scored her that ridiculous "1-5" scale, folks, not the CBI examiner. In fact, Ubowski, the CBI examiner, said that the writing showed indications of it being Patsy. He also said that the exemplars he worked with didn't show the full range of her handwriting and that it was the bleeding ink from the pen that kept him from naming her for sure. Remember that.

"In my opinion Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note with her opposite hand. This would account for the instances where the curvature of some of the letters don't quite match up perfectly."

Ted Widmer agrees. He matched letters from her left hand to the note perfectly.

One more thing: on MSNBC, David Liebman, a handwriting expert, said this Karr might have written it, based on TWO things, but don't forget, he wrote this:


And in THAT case, he had much more to work with, by his own admission.

If DNA testing should exclude Karr, his handwriting could still be inculpatory. However, if an inclusion/exclusion trump card is going to come to pass in this case, it will be DNA.

 

[scandi]

This is the $64,000 question Wudge, so don't feel bad if you have no idea, but do you think the DA already knows the answer from the DNA comparison? I'm surprised that in 2001 his DNA was evidently not put on file. Maybe it was.

Scandi

 

[tumble]

If DNA testing should exclude Karr, his handwriting could still be inculpatory. However, if an inclusion/exclusion trump card is going to come to pass in this case, it will be DNA.

The DNA found doesn't have the power to exclude.
You have to show that noone else but the perp could have left it there. As the state of the DNA is not prestine you have to know the history of the object the DNA was deposited on. Something we dont know in this case.

 

[Wudge]

This is the $64,000 question Wudge, so don't feel bad if you have no idea, but do you think the DA already knows the answer from the DNA comparison? I'm surprised that in 2001 his DNA was evidently not put on file. Maybe it was.

Scandi

Until members of the D.A.'s team followed Karr after he had picked up their ruse photos at his post office box in Thailand and trailed him to his apartment, they only new his email name. Afterwards, they determined the person living in that apartment to be John Mark Karr.

A few days later, Karr provided a specimen for DNA testing. Perhaps the D.A. knows by now, but I think not.

 

[BBB167893]

"However, if an inclusion/exclusion trump card is going to come to pass in this case, it will be DNA."

I'd say that's likely.

 

[scandi]

Thanks Wudge!

 

[Wudge]

The DNA found doesn't have the power to exclude.


SNIP

It depends on how the legal system decides to treat it.

I posted the following elsewhere.

"The quality of foreign DNA found on Jon Benet's body has been much discussed over the years.

If DNA tests exclude Karr and the D.A. chooses not to try him based on that finding, we can conclude that the quality of the DNA found at the crime scene was deemed to be very high quality evidence.

If the DNA tests exclude Karr but the D.A. still decides to try him by claiming that the DNA at the crime scene was too weak to be conclusive, yet a jury were to acquit Karr based on the DNA exclusion, then we can reasonably conclude that the jury saw the strength of DNA exclusion to be too significant to find proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if that were to be a jury's finding for Karr, it is reasonable to conclude that a DNA exclusion would almost assuredly prevent anyone from ever being convicted of the murder.

So the scene is potentially setting up for the true strength of the DNA evidence to be made publically known, and, perhaps, be the sole conviction card forever after.

Remember too that DNA testing excluded the Ramseys."

 

[BBB167893]

If it's too weak to exclude him, it's too weak to exclude them.

Flat-out.

 

[Wudge]

If it's too weak to exclude him, it's too weak to exclude them.

Flat-out.

It just depends on factors we do not have perfect knowledge of. For example, per reports, foreign DNA was allegedly found both under Jon Benet's fingernails and also mixed in with blood on her panties.

Were technicians able to gleem two DNA profiles, either partial or complete, from both of the two sources? If from both, are the markers in the profile indicative of the profile from each source belonging to the same person? Do we have perfect knowledge?

Moreover, even if a DNA exclusion was strongly thought to be exonerating, that could be a false premise. For example, if the DNA were to exclude Karr, but the D.A. has Karr's confession, a handwriting match and a hotel receipt showing he was in Boulder on 12/25, would he take the case to trial? I think the answer would be: Yes.

 

[tumble]

It just depends on factors we do not have perfect knowledge of. For example, per reports, foreign DNA was allegedly found both under Jon Benet's fingernails and also mixed in with blood on her panties.

I think this could be the case. But the fingernail DNA was severely degraded, I think only 2 markers were identified which means that DNA would match 25% of the population. I also wonder how they can be sure that fingernail DNA actually came from one person, otherwise they have a composite which would be misleading.

Were technicians able to gleem two DNA profiles, either partial or complete, from both of the two sources? If from both, are the markers in the profile indicative of the profile from each source belonging to the same person? Do we have perfect knowledge?

Neither was complete. And I wonder how indicative a match between the samples would be as we don't know the history of the object. Transfer between fingers and panties can not be ruled out.

For example, if the DNA were to exclude Karr, but the D.A. has Karr's confession, a handwriting match and a hotel receipt showing he was in Boulder on 12/25, would he take the case to trial? I think the answer would be: Yes.

I think so too.