13 Separate Similarities Convinces Handwriting Expert

[aspidistra]

The samples from Patsy were in script. I never could see trying to compare them with the printed ransom note.

The yearbook Karr wrote in was printed. Some was fancy but some was ordinary printing and it is that part which matches the ransom note so much, particularly the unusual lower case d's and a's.

The expert on CNN who said he could see no match was asked to compare a block printed (all caps) application of Karr's with the note, and said he could not do an analysis with that.

For me, the handwriting is NOT the most difficult part of the investigation. I think it matches but even if it doesn't, they have to look at the other odd pieces of evidence and explain them first.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted byaspidistra
The samples from Patsy were in script. I never could see trying to compare them with the printed ransom note.

No they weren't...

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
Most of this document is the handwriting analysis which comes after some other documents.

Since the note was printed, she would have been specifically told to print and not write in script as they were trying to compare her printing to a printed note.

In find the individual letter comparisons pretty compelling... Exhibit "C" that starts on page 34 of the above linked .pdf doc (but the rest is interesting as well).

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

One of my many occupations involves reading handwritten text. I read literally thousands of papers monthly.

That being said, it is incredibly rare that I come accross any two papers that resemble each other, script-wise.

On rare occasions, I will see a paper I thought I saw earlier because the handwriting looks somewhat familliar. Again, this is an extremely rare occurance. Maybe one in 100 papers look sort of alike.

Now, when I look at Patsy's handrwiting and then I look at the RN, there is no doubt in my mind that the author of both samples is the same person.

No, I am not trained at handwriting analysis. However, I know when two papers look the same. I am trained to spot copying and cheating within the samples I read. It would raise a red flag if I saw Patsy's writing and then the RN writing...

 

[Lacy Wood]

Jeralyn Merritt seems to agree with the opinion I posted earlier about this expert and goes a bit further to adress his claims that he can recognize a pedophile from his handwriting. (Opinion: He's a publicity seeker.) http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015555.html

 

[Helena U]

I think the aspect of the referenced note in his High School year book that gives strong hope Karr is telling the truth is that he ended it with :Shall Be The Conqueror. And the ransom note ended with the mysterious S.B.T.C. along with "Victory".

His way of closing years earlier perfects the closing in the ransom note. If he is not the killer, that coincidence belongs in Ripleys.

The yearbook says "I shall be the conqueror..."

"Shall be the conqueror" doesn't make any sense. ISBTC would be a match with the yearbook quote, but not SBTC. ISBTCaLIMP would make it one for Ripley's.

 

[Wudge]

The yearbook says "I shall be the conqueror..."

"Shall be the conqueror" doesn't make any sense. ISBTC would be a match with the yearbook quote, but not SBTC. ISBTCaLIMP would make it one for Ripley's.

I've never professed to be able to make sense out of why fruitcakes do strange things. It may be but a coincidence; we'll see how this plays out.

 

[wenchie]

If the yearbook inscription is significant, why hasn't the DA snagged it to use as evidence?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If the yearbook inscription is significant, why hasn't the DA snagged it to use as evidence?

Very good point. What investigation exactly was put into deciding this guy's the guy? Tracey's emails?

I still have to scoff at any "expert" who can look at a twenty year old yearbook signing and a 10 year old ransom note and call them a match.

 

[wenchie]

Apparently, this girl is still running around with the yearbook, and although the entire UNIVERSE knows about it, the DA doesn't appear to be interested.

With this woman doing interviews with the yearbook, etc. - any decent defense attorney would attack the inscription and imply that she dug out her old yearbook and wrote that expression herself - for either fame or money.

 

[Hyatt]

ONLY 13??? I just finished looking at the analysis between the note and PR's handwriting samples, and JUST counting the dead-on matches of each letter and the various ways she wrote each letter there are 62!!! This doesn't count all the letter combinations, use of a specific capital letter where a lower case letter should be used, etc.... JUST matches of individual letters. And those individual letters are a slam dunk. There is no possible way that any non-deluded person could possibly imagine that Patsy was not the author of the ransom note after looking at this ONE expert analysis.

Look at it yourself, especially Exhibit "C"...
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

Thank-you so much for that link. That was fascinating and, as far as I am concerned - it's a match.

Is there a place to go to for a sample of John Karr's handwriting?

Thanks

 

[Hyatt]

This is what I don't get about handwriting analysis -- so many of those in the link have to do with touching letter combinations ... big fat deal. Many people write like that, the half cursive/half printing thing. It's natural.

And then they pick letters that have a bunch of variations, a dozen o's or t's. Well, the more variations you have, the more chances to find a match, right? If Joe Schmoe almost always writes a y with a curly tail, but just one time writes a y with a straight tail, and they are comparing his writing to John Doe, who usually writes with a straight y tail, but once with a curly y tail ... all of the sudden they pull out the two odd y's that match, and Joe and John have two matches, when really they should have none.

Of course, I am no expert AT ALL, and maybe they do count occurrences, but if they don't, they should. Pick out ALL the d's from one, compare them to ALL the d's of another, and then make a judgment.

Does any of that make sense?

Pinto,

I am struck by that very versatility in BOTH samples. That in of itself is unique, IMO. If I am not mistaken, the Ramseys requested a copy of the ransom note. Patsy denied that on LKL but JR didn't appear to and instead began talking about lawyers looking after their interests.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Thank-you so much for that link. That was fascinating and, as far as I am concerned - it's a match.

Is there a place to go to for a sample of John Karr's handwriting?

Thanks

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/pdf/karrYearbook.pdf

 

[Hyatt]

Until members of the D.A.'s team followed Karr after he had picked up their ruse photos at his post office box in Thailand and trailed him to his apartment, they only new his email name. Afterwards, they determined the person living in that apartment to be John Mark Karr.

A few days later, Karr provided a specimen for DNA testing. Perhaps the D.A. knows by now, but I think not.

I also think not. Had there been a match, the DA would not be saying that there is "still a lot of work to do."

 

[Hyatt]

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/pdf/karrYearbook.pdf

Thanks Nuisanceposter. I don't see the similarities with this one but I concede that the time factor is probably important. His "e"s are interesting.

 

[Wudge]

I also think not. Had there been a match, the DA would not be saying that there is "still a lot of work to do."

As I recall, LE obtained a saliva specimen from Karr on August 17. If true, it could have been back in the States on the 18th. Preliminary results can be available in three days. Hence, we have reached the timeframe where, at a mininum, preliminary results are possible.

On the other hand, based on what is in the public domain regarding the DNA found on JonBenets body. DNA tests are not necessarily going to be conclusive. So I am not of the mind that the D.A. would want to quickly obtain the results.

More than anything else, I think the D.A. wants Karr in Boulder where he can be thoroughly interrogated. And I suspect they have been preparing their interrogation methods based on how Karr has appeared on the TV clips, revealing statements and to his personality and mindset and from feedback by the homeland security personnel that attended to his transfer to the States.

 

[angelwngs]

Do a Google search for D'Nealian Handwriting. I taught school for 16 years. In the South we used this program to teach children to write. The specific reason for adopting this method is that it makes the transition from manuscript writing to cursive much easier as most letters in manuscript have "tails". Many strokes are very unusual. In particular the lowercase letter "b" is distinct, as it begins at the top of the line and strokes down to loop the bottom connecting to make what looks as a slanted number 6 (with a straighter 1st stroke). The lowercase letters y, l, m, n, i, h, and t all have what I call "monkey tails".

In samples of JMK's yearbook and in the ransom note the lowercase "b" 's are distinctively characteristic of the D'Nealian Handwriting method. Also, most of the 'tail letters' are as well.

In the South, D'Nealian Handwriting was adopted as the preferred Handwriting method in public school around 1979 or 1980. Both the ransom note and the yearbook sample having this style of writing could probably suggest that the author of both were either taught using this style of handwriting or were involved in teaching or helping young children this method or that they themselves were taught this method...

For what it is worth... I thought I would share this...

 

[Wudge]

A leading handwriting expert says it is a million to one that Karr did not write the ransom note.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4934911,00.html

 

[englishleigh]

Do a Google search for D'Nealian Handwriting. I taught school for 16 years. In the South we used this program to teach children to write. The specific reason for adopting this method is that it makes the transition from manuscript writing to cursive much easier as most letters in manuscript have "tails". Many strokes are very unusual. In particular the lowercase letter "b" is distinct, as it begins at the top of the line and strokes down to loop the bottom connecting to make what looks as a slanted number 6 (with a straighter 1st stroke). The lowercase letters y, l, m, n, i, h, and t all have what I call "monkey tails".

In samples of JMK's yearbook and in the ransom note the lowercase "b" 's are distinctively characteristic of the D'Nealian Handwriting method. Also, most of the 'tail letters' are as well.

In the South, D'Nealian Handwriting was adopted as the preferred Handwriting method in public school around 1979 or 1980. Both the ransom note and the yearbook sample having this style of writing could probably suggest that the author of both were either taught using this style of handwriting or were involved in teaching or helping young children this method or that they themselves were taught this method...

For what it is worth... I thought I would share this...

I wonder if they use the D'Nealian handwriting teaching technique in West Virginia, too?
Isn't that where Patsy grew up?

 

[tumble]

A leading handwriting expert says it is a million to one that Karr did not write the ransom note.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4934911,00.html

I think the handwriting expertice is burning itself up on this one.
One expert is a million-to-one and another says there are almost no similarities.

 

[angelwngs]

I wonder if they use the D'Nealian handwriting teaching technique in West Virginia, too?
Isn't that where Patsy grew up?

Patsy was too old to have been taught this method in school in West Virginia. It was not adopted for use until around 1979. She should have been finishing college by then.

Most likely she would have used D'Nealian Handwriting techniques in helping JBR with her writing... and could have easily incoorporated much of the style into her own handwriting. I was not taught to write using this style in school as a student but teaching children to use it caused me to incoorporate some letter characteristics into my own writing. (Especially the lowercase "b", which I think is very ugly and very uncharacteristic of any other handwriting method... I wish I could brake myself of writing my little "b" 's that way!