CO - Four killed, 5 injured in Arvada & Colorado Springs church shootings, 9 Dec 2007

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I'm thinking this is over him being crazy -- Cho Seung-Hui crazy. IF that's him in that MySpace -- I didn't link it from my blog yet because I was waiting to see if the news would publish a photo of the guy -- I see a fake smile and dead eyes. Heck, I'd see that even if it wasn't him.

Murray being home-schooled: that could mean his parents were fundamentalists, it could also mean they were hippie throwbacks. I KNOW there are plenty of people who home-school kids who are neither, but it looks like the home-schoolers I've met break down into one group or the other, much of the time. One group considers education too secular, the other thinks education is wrong-headed and won't give the kids enough "holistic" learning.

It could also mean he was a troubled kid early in life and home-schooling was his parents' solution to any social problems they feared he might have.

It was weird -- I felt bad even referencing his dad in the blog entry because I have MS and his father, Ronald S. Murray, has actually done some profound and ground-breaking research into the causes of multiple sclerosis. Then there's the fact that a tragedy visits the killer's family when it visits the victims, as well...

Steve/Mr. A
 
Just FYI, I was reporting what the Fox reporter said about him being homeschooled. I personally have nothing against it, and I don't think she was intimating anything by that either. She was just stating various info they had on Matt Murray.
 
I was absolutely stunned over this news! Colorado Springs is my hometown, so I rushed home from work today to make sure I didn't know any of the victims. Fortunately I did not but I just feel awful that these families lost theri loved ones.
 
MSNBC is reporting that police have said this guy "hated Christians." Press conference coming up this evening...
 
It's interesting - one site (CNN) says he was a member of the church, went on missions, the other says he hated Christians. Wonder which is true - or maybe both? Had some type of betrayal, real or percieved, by the church, and went on the attack?
 
Details said:
It's interesting - one site (CNN) says he was a member of the church, went on missions, the other says he hated Christians. Wonder which is true - or maybe both? Had some type of betrayal, real or percieved, by the church, and went on the attack?
Click to expand...

My feelings are that just because he did all that doesn't mean he loved doing it. He lived at home with his parents and probably had to abide by their rules.

I can't even imagine what his parents must be going through right now. Of course, I feel horribly for the families of the killed and injured, but they must be in shock as well.

It's all so senseless.
 
The thing is - if he didn't want to do it, was forced by parents - I can't see that type of anger over being kicked out. I'm kinda wondering if his grudge is that he believes he's some type of super christian, and they didn't see how perfectly right he was, or some type of thing like that.

Reading that the other church, he asked to stay for the night - I'm really wondering if he planned to go kill everyone while they slept - he had his gun with him at that time.
 
I watched ABC news tonight; evidently he was kicked out of the Missionary school a couple years ago - he had threatened them.

It was only because the church heard about the shooting and knew about the threats that they hired this expert security.

The security woman who acted so quickly and bravely saved many more from being killed.

Yes, like Janet Elaine says, we have a much higher level of gun violence than most countries. There are several reasons for that that are not difficult to figure out.

Once again, this guy had assault weapons, tons of ammo, etc. Once again, there were plenty of warnings signs. This, time, the organization acted on those warnings.
 
Sorry folks but I feel that there may be much more to this than meets the eye. I am concerned about the "connection" with these two centers and the "anti-gay" (reformed gay) movement within their communities. Perhaps the shooter (Murray) had a "connection" with that aspect? Don't know, just guessing. I could see how this might cause tremendous confusion, and possibly drive an already disturbed individual "over the edge".

I also have a BIG PROBLEM with the security guard. Not necessarily with what she did, she was definitely a hero who was responsible for stopping what might have been an even more horrific situation. BUT, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this:

Assam said, "I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had -- was God. I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse. I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me."

Excuse me, but whatever happened to the 10 Commandments? Does it not state that "Thou Shall Not Kill"? It does not say "Thou Shalt Not Kill....except if there is a gunman with an AK-47 in the doorway...."

I know, I know, you may get angry with me. You will ask, "how else could she have handled the situation?" That is the question....

I am not saying I think she did the wrong thing. I just wish she could have said....

"I saw him come through the door and I took him down" PERIOD!!!

The rest will get her in trouble....mark my words!
 
colomom said:
Sorry folks but I feel that there may be much more to this than meets the eye. I am concerned about the "connection" with these two centers and the "anti-gay" (reformed gay) movement within their communities. Perhaps the shooter (Murray) had a "connection" with that aspect? Don't know, just guessing. I could see how this might cause tremendous confusion, and possibly drive an already disturbed individual "over the edge".

I also have a BIG PROBLEM with the security guard. Not necessarily with what she did, she was definitely a hero who was responsible for stopping what might have been an even more horrific situation. BUT, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this:

Assam said, "I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had -- was God. I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse. I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me."

Excuse me, but whatever happened to the 10 Commandments? Does it not state that "Thou Shall Not Kill"? It does not say "Thou Shalt Not Kill....except if there is a gunman with an AK-47 in the doorway...."

I know, I know, you may get angry with me. You will ask, "how else could she have handled the situation?" That is the question....

I am not saying I think she did the wrong thing. I just wish she could have said....

"I saw him come through the door and I took him down" PERIOD!!!

The rest will get her in trouble....mark my words!
Click to expand...


[SIZE=+1]Self Defense in the Old Testament[/SIZE]
Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."
One conclusion which can be drawn from this is that a threat to our life is to be met with lethal force. During the day, presumably because we can recognize and later apprehend the thief if he escapes, we are not to kill him in non life-threatening circumstances. In Proverbs 25:26 we read that "A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well." Certainly we would be faltering before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life.

Let us consider also that the Sixth Commandment tells us "Thou shall not murder." In the chapters following, God gave to Moses many of the situations which require a death penalty. God clearly has not told us never to kill. He has told us not to murder, which means we are not to take an innocent life. Consider also that the civil magistrate is to be a terror to those who practice evil. This passage does not in any way imply that the role of law enforcement is to prevent crimes or to protect individuals from criminals. The magistrate is a minister to serve as "an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." (Romans 13:4)
http://www.lawandliberty.org/defense.htm
 
colomom said:
Excuse me, but whatever happened to the 10 Commandments? Does it not state that "Thou Shall Not Kill"? It does not say "Thou Shalt Not Kill....except if there is a gunman with an AK-47 in the doorway...."
Click to expand...

The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life.

Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

No link, sorry, typed it here from a magazine clipping. I don't even know which magazine it's from. :eek:

ETA I see csds has posted something similar.... sorry if mine is redundant, I was typing this while you posted....
 
csds703 said:
[SIZE=+1]Self Defense in the Old Testament[/SIZE]
Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."
One conclusion which can be drawn from this is that a threat to our life is to be met with lethal force. During the day, presumably because we can recognize and later apprehend the thief if he escapes, we are not to kill him in non life-threatening circumstances. In Proverbs 25:26 we read that "A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well." Certainly we would be faltering before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life.
Click to expand...

So, in other words, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" means nothing???

Or maybe it means that the Bible means nothing since (as you have indicated) it is full of contradictions???

Please explain...
 
I am not one for reciting the bible - but I know that God always provided for us to defend ourselves. Law enforcement are trained to shoot to kill. What would you have her do? Shoot him in the leg? She is a flippen hero, THIS CHICK ROCKS!
 
Heather - do you honestly believe that in the face of evil that God would not allow you to protect yourself & others???
 
Oh, I am sooooooo sorry, I even opened this can of worms....

I will not go there and would encourage you gentle readers to stay clear of this as well. It will bring nothing but argument and hurts feelings.

I posted what I did AS MY OPINION. I am not asking for you to present your argument!!!

PLEASE....write about something else.
 
colomom said:
So, in other words, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" means nothing???

Or maybe it means that the Bible means nothing since (as you have indicated) it is full of contradictions???

Please explain...
Click to expand...

No, the translations were wrong. The Hebrew word of 'harag' means 'kill' in all it's generalities (like also cows for meat etc.). The word that was used in the Torah (of which the Old Testament, where the 10 Commandments appear, is a translation) is 'ratsah', which is the word for murder and the Hebrew root word for criminal killings.
 
colomom said:
Oh, I am sooooooo sorry, I even opened this can of worms....

I will not go there and would encourage you gentle readers to stay clear of this as well. It will bring nothing but argument and hurts feelings.

I posted what I did AS MY OPINION. I am not asking for you to present your argument!!!

PLEASE....write about something else.
Click to expand...

No arguments from me for sure. I was just pointing out that we can all find passages to support any viewpoint.

This is a horrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers are with the families effected.
Peace.
 
colomom said:
Oh, I am sooooooo sorry, I even opened this can of worms....

I will not go there and would encourage you gentle readers to stay clear of this as well. It will bring nothing but argument and hurts feelings.

I posted what I did AS MY OPINION. I am not asking for you to present your argument!!!

PLEASE....write about something else.
Click to expand...

Why are you shying away from this and referring to it as a can of worms? Your question can very simply be explained, whatever your beliefs are. You do not have to be a Christian or have Christian beliefs to find out about accurate translations and quotes from a well-read book. :confused:
 
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