CO - Four killed, 5 injured in Arvada & Colorado Springs church shootings, 9 Dec 2007

[LovingTheChaos]

Fine - but you asked people to explain, now you want people to not talk about it. You opened the worm can. Anyway, have a good night. I am thankful this woman was where she was at the time. She saved many innocent people.

 

[colomom]

Fine - but you asked people to explain, now you want people to not talk about it. You opened the worm can. Anyway, have a good night. I am thankful this woman was where she was at the time. She saved many innocent people.

I did not ask PEOPLE to explain, I asked csds703 to explain their post. And did I say she was anything less than a hero....NO. All I said is that she could have kept it short and sweet and all the rest was not necessary.

And JanetElaine, do you really believe that it can be "very simply explained"? The posts that followed prove that that is not possible.

And, please, don't tell me that you all don't realize that arguments about religion will not result in arguments and hurt feelings....

It was opinion, I thought I was entitled to mine. Guess not.

 

[csds703]

I did not ask PEOPLE to explain, I asked csds703 to explain their post. And did I say she was anything less than a hero....NO. All I said is that she could have kept it short and sweet and all the rest was not necessary.

And JanetElaine, do you really believe that it can be "very simply explained"? The posts that followed prove that that is not possible.

And, please, don't tell me that you all don't realize that arguments about religion will not result in arguments and hurt feelings....

It was opinion, I thought I was entitled to mine. Guess not.

I did explain, look at post #39.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I watched ABC news tonight; evidently he was kicked out of the Missionary school a couple years ago - he had threatened them.

It was only because the church heard about the shooting and knew about the threats that they hired this expert security.

The security woman who acted so quickly and bravely saved many more from being killed.

Yes, like Janet Elaine says, we have a much higher level of gun violence than most countries. There are several reasons for that that are not difficult to figure out.

Once again, this guy had assault weapons, tons of ammo, etc. Once again, there were plenty of warnings signs. This, time, the organization acted on those warnings.

Martha, I question what you have highlighted above. The Arvada incident happened around midnight and the shooting in Co. Springs happened the next day. I don't think they hired her on the spur of the moment. She's a regular churchgoer there. She goes to one service, then works as security after the service. I believe they have had security in the past.

The Episcopal church I attended in Miami was pretty much in the downtown area, with limited parking and sometimes some shady people hung around. We hired an off duty cop on Sundays during services to keep an eye on the vehicles and he assisted the elderly often. BTW, he was a real "hunk" and a member of the Miami PD SWAT team. Really nice guy, too.

As vast as that parking lot is, imagine it covered with cars while people are attending services. I have driven by there many times, believe me it's huge. Having security would make sense. Imagine all those cars and a few thugs cruising the lot looking for something of value to steal. Unfortunately, in any city, it's necessary to have security, be it a church or shopping mall. I'm sure they weren't looking to protect their parishoners from a shooter, but crime in general.

Oh, to help in your possible confusion, I don't remember, but I believe it was NBC news after our local Denver news headed right off with two church shootings in the Denver suburbs. Colorado Springs is it's own city 60 miles or so south of Denver.

 

[colomom]

I did explain, look at post #39.

I KNOW you did....

That response was directed at LovingTheChaos, not you.

I actually read your post but, as usual, when it comes to arguments about interpreting the bible....I was more confused. But, don't worry, not your fault, all mine.

 

[csds703]

I KNOW you did....

That response was directed at LovingTheChaos, not you.

I actually read your post but, as usual, when it comes to arguments about interpreting the bible....I was more confused. But, don't worry, not your fault, all mine.

If it weren't confusing there wouldn't be so many different religions.
I don't like to argue about beliefs myself. We are all entitled to worship how we wish.
My only point in posting other passages was to point out that I do not think there would be backlash based on the 6th commandment because it was not murder on the security guards part, it was self defense which is justified in the bible if that is your belief.

 

[GonzoReiter]

Oh, I am sooooooo sorry, I even opened this can of worms....

I will not go there and would encourage you gentle readers to stay clear of this as well. It will bring nothing but argument and hurts feelings.

I posted what I did AS MY OPINION. I am not asking for you to present your argument!!!

PLEASE....write about something else.

I don't think your understanding of the word "forum" means what you think it means.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I would suggest we keep personal religious beliefs and personal interpretations of what the bible says or doesn't say, or whether the brave lady security guard was guided by a religious spirit or not out of the discussion or we will have the mods shut us down.

Personally, I think it's OK to report what we know or have learned about these tragedies from the news and even personal knowledge, but while it's still fresh news and an investigation, all sorts of things are flying about.

I've noticed several posts that have reported things that were entirely different than what I heard on local news and two news conferences today. One I can think of is that Murray did not serve as a missionary anywhere, he was a student at the YWOM, but left or was asked to leave the group. That's just one thing I've heard differently than what has been posted here.

Please, watch the religious debates. We don't want the MODs to shut the thread down.

 

[Marthatex]

Martha, I question what you have highlighted above. The Arvada incident happened around midnight and the shooting in Co. Springs happened the next day. I don't think they hired her on the spur of the moment. She's a regular churchgoer there. She goes to one service, then works as security after the service. I believe they have had security in the past.

The Episcopal church I attended in Miami was pretty much in the downtown area, with limited parking and sometimes some shady people hung around. We hired an off duty cop on Sundays during services to keep an eye on the vehicles and he assisted the elderly often. BTW, he was a real "hunk" and a member of the Miami PD SWAT team. Really nice guy, too.

As vast as that parking lot is, imagine it covered with cars while people are attending services. I have driven by there many times, believe me it's huge. Having security would make sense. Imagine all those cars and a few thugs cruising the lot looking for something of value to steal. Unfortunately, in any city, it's necessary to have security, be it a church or shopping mall. I'm sure they weren't looking to protect their parishoners from a shooter, but crime in general.

Oh, to help in your possible confusion, I don't remember, but I believe it was NBC news after our local Denver news headed right off with two church shootings in the Denver suburbs. Colorado Springs is it's own city 60 miles or so south of Denver.

Sorry, I may have misunderstood what I heard. I was just listening to Charlie G., and it goes pretty fast. I understood him to say there had been threats, so they hired security; but maybe they said "used her (trained security) after church".

The news really gets alot of things mixed up but I thought he meant they heard of the other shooting and then beefed up security.

At any rate, there were warnings about this disgruntled boy. And the female security person did a fantastic job; she must have been well trained and quick.

 

[colomom]

If it weren't confusing there wouldn't be so many different religions.
I don't like to argue about beliefs myself. We are all entitled to worship how we wish.
My only point in posting other passages was to point out that I do not think there would be backlash based on the 6th commandment because it was not murder on the security guards part, it was self defense which is justified in the bible if that is your belief.

Agreed....totally. It is not about what she did, it is all about MOUTH.

I hope you get my meaning.

 

[colomom]

I don't think your understanding of the word "forum" means what you think it means.

There is still discussion going on.....

 

[Marthatex]

I would suggest we keep personal religious beliefs and personal interpretations of what the bible says or doesn't say, or whether the brave lady security guard was guided by a religious spirit or not out of the discussion or we will have the mods shut us down.
Personally, I think it's OK to report what we know or have learned about these tragedies from the news and even personal knowledge, but while it's still fresh news and an investigation, all sorts of things are flying about.

I've noticed several posts that have reported things that were entirely different than what I heard on local news and two news conferences today. One I can think of is that Murray did not serve as a missionary anywhere, he was a student at the YWOM, but left or was asked to leave the group. That's just one thing I've heard differently than what has been posted here.

Please, watch the religious debates. We don't want the MODs to shut the thread down.

Absolutely. It would be nice to find out the facts regarding what happened first.

Colorado always seems a great place to me -so sad that another shooting has happened there.

 

[txsvicki]

The security guard's comments make me a little uncomfortable since she says that God was with her, that this was God. She did her job with her gun and I think any comments should be about sorrow at having to kill and hope to understand what happened.

Sorry folks but I feel that there may be much more to this than meets the eye. I am concerned about the "connection" with these two centers and the "anti-gay" (reformed gay) movement within their communities. Perhaps the shooter (Murray) had a "connection" with that aspect? Don't know, just guessing. I could see how this might cause tremendous confusion, and possibly drive an already disturbed individual "over the edge".

I also have a BIG PROBLEM with the security guard. Not necessarily with what she did, she was definitely a hero who was responsible for stopping what might have been an even more horrific situation. BUT, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this:

Assam said, "I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had -- was God. I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse. I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me."

Excuse me, but whatever happened to the 10 Commandments? Does it not state that "Thou Shall Not Kill"? It does not say "Thou Shalt Not Kill....except if there is a gunman with an AK-47 in the doorway...."

I know, I know, you may get angry with me. You will ask, "how else could she have handled the situation?" That is the question....

I am not saying I think she did the wrong thing. I just wish she could have said....

"I saw him come through the door and I took him down" PERIOD!!!

The rest will get her in trouble....mark my words!

 

[BarnGoddess]

Sorry, I may have misunderstood what I heard. I was just listening to Charlie G., and it goes pretty fast. I understood him to say there had been threats, so they hired security; but maybe they said "used her (trained security) after church".

The news really gets alot of things mixed up but I thought he meant they heard of the other shooting and then beefed up security.

At any rate, there were warnings about this disgruntled boy. And the female security person did a fantastic job; she must have been well trained and quick.

You may be right about prior threats. After all, this is a very controversial church, very fundamental. It makes sense in this day and age to have security at these very large gatherings. Don't quote me but I believe I heard they have around 10,000 members? That's a lot of people milling about a parking lot, and a full to possible overflowing building during services. I would hope they had several security people looking out for the congregation.

As to the guard and her words at the press conference; I believe she spoke from her heart. If she believes a higher power gave her the courage to handle a potentially tragic situation, then I'll take her word for it.

 

[SieSie]

Snipped--->

As to the guard and her words at the press conference; I believe she spoke from her heart. If she believes a higher power gave her the courage to handle a potentially tragic situation, then I'll take her word for it.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Toby]

from the following link:
http://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_7683781

...After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.
Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."


A very brave woman here. A volunteer security guard. She should be hailed as a hero.

 

[jilly]

from the following link:
http://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_7683781

...After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.
Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."


A very brave woman here. A volunteer security guard. She should be hailed as a hero.

I just saw her at a press conference on Anderson Cooper. Good looking woman too. She was absolutely amazing. Bourbonnais was on AC too and he said she just walked straight to the shooter so calmly like she was walking to her car. He said she was shooting and calling out "surrender, surrender".

In all his years including time in Viet Nam, Bourbonnais said he'd never seen anything like it (her).

She said the Holy Spirit is the hero not her. Amazing!

ETA She had heard about the shootings and immediately drove (I can't remember how many miles) to help out.
She said she previously worked in LE.

 

[Marthatex]

from the following link:
http://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_7683781

...After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.
Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."


A very brave woman here. A volunteer security guard. She should be hailed as a hero.

You are right Toby; I've been saying that all along. She was obviously well trained and did an outstanding job; she is a hero.

BG; he is now identified and he had written alot of hate mail because he didn't get to finish the training program -3 years ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/page/2/

There seems to be no "pat" profile of a mass, hate shooter except:

HATE - and they are usually male, and do give warning signs

 

[Reannan]

I think the woman who shot this creep did a great job, and I am glad she was there. There were 7000 people there at the time! Seven Thousand People! That is a huge crowd, and worthy of security no matter why they are gathered in a single spot. This woman made statements that will be viewed as controversial to many because they refer to her religion. Get over it. SHE had a right to say what she said. Her religion is probably part of the reason she VOLUNTERED to work security at that church. If she felt her God helped her and protected her, she has the right to say so, and WE have no right to question her on it. I am sick of people questioning what the "f" other people SAY. American's need to grow a thicker skin and be more tolerant of other people's opinion. This creep that destroyed these lives did so because he was rejected. Good God, how many times have I been rejected from something? The more you try, the more you will get rejected before you find your place in life. We have raised a society of pathetic, pitiful, mewling bastards and *advertiser censored* that can't stand to loose. The world cannot go on like this. Mother Nature will step in and fill the shoes that the biological "mother" has vacated. If these people had something REAL to worry about, i.e. famine, plague, disease, war, etc......they would not be so damned upset about being rejected from some missionary group. Watch for a calibration by Mother Nature within our society in the next three or four decades. People will begin to realize they have more important things to worry about than being allowed into some man-made group. God help us all.

 

[BarnGoddess]

More coming in now on Denver channel 9 news. Seems as if he posted on a website as an abbreviation of Nightmare Child. Let me check their website to see what's there. I understand that his posts have been removed from that site. 9 News said that he apparantly wrote two posts between the shootings.

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=82548

In the Web writings, which are now being investigated by Colorado Springs Police, Arvada Police and the FBI, Murray warned, "I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

I also just heard that the rest of the members of the family, his parents and brother, regularly attended a church, but he did not go.

The news is not naming the site where he posted, but it is an ex-Pentecostal site apparantly.

Folks, sorry for any errors, but this news is now coming out hot and heavy, so we're bound to get all kinds of info, not all accurate.