CO - Four killed, 5 injured in Arvada & Colorado Springs church shootings, 9 Dec 2007

[BarnGoddess]

You are right Toby; I've been saying that all along. She was obviously well trained and did an outstanding job; she is a hero.

BG; he is now identified and he had written alot of hate mail because he didn't get to finish the training program -3 years ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/page/2/

There seems to be no "pat" profile of a mass, hate shooter except:

HATE - and they are usually male, and do give warning signs

You're right, Martha. When the first reports came out, they did mention she was NOT a cop, but had firearms training and could carry a gun. I think they're now saying she had a LE background. I just don't know what kind.

Posted above about his ravings on an ex-Pentecostal forum.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Found the forum!!!


Here's their home page:

http://ex-pentecostals.org/

I got into their forum by clicking through. Like WS, they have public areas. Check out Azusa Survivors forum.

 

[Reannan]

Thanks for that link Barngoddess! Great job! Here is a message that this guy left under his name of "Nghtmrchld26" from 5/8/07. I see an individual who could not take rejection, and fed his hatred until it exploded out of him:

"Re: My YWAM Horror Story
I did my DTS at YWAM Denver and Dale Lambert was my DTS school leader. I witnessed all kinds of insanity. Men would be making out with other men in the hallways, listening to all kinds of "metal music"(non-christian), smoke pot with each other while off base, there were rumors of sexual activity, both hetero and homosexual.

Not that any of those things are bad...but.......
Why was I told that I couldn't be a missionary because I wasn't "social enough"? I was told that I was "an introvert."
Everyone else got to go on their outreaches except for a few who lied about smoking(cigarettes).

The authoritarianism and hypocrisy is outrageous. The YWAM leaders would always believe that they had some special "connection to God" to be able to dictate and rule over student's lives. I'm not talking about simple rules like "no drugs allowed" but rather "we prayed and we feel like the spirit says that you're not loyal enough" or "we prayed and we feel like God says you're not to go on any outreaches." For just asking the question "why are we having a special group meeting tonight?" I was told "we prayed and we feel that you have a spirit of rebellion and if you ask or question anything any further we may have to send you home..." I was told that I could not watch an "R" movie at a movie theater even though several of the other students did...and yes, the leaders knew full well about it.

The lack of knowledge and thinking is another story. Almost none of those people ever questioned the things they were taught. They always assume it's true and in matters of contradictory teachers and teachings, they'd just believe and follow whatever everyone's emotions were feeling. I remember "holy spirit week" where they tried to get everyone "baptised in the holy spirit." I went along with it just to stop people harassing me and asking me "are you still speaking in tongues? you better not stop doing that or you might lose the holy spirit....." I now know that the Divine Spirit is within all of us no matter what our religion is. Very few actually had answers in regards to salvation or "hearing the voice of God." A lot of the "prophesy" in those groups was/is nothing more than lower psychism. Sure, they can be accurate once in a while, but even then it's on a lower level. Just because someone is psychically/spiritually sensitive doesn't mean they know how to exercise it or have a trained mind. It also does not mean that they understand spiritual principles. It only means that they are sensitive to the lower astral levels.

1 person did get sent home for making an amateur sex video of homosexual nature....6 or 7 people were involved but only that one person got sent home. I know 3 or 4 others were sent home simply for smoking a legal nicotine cigarette. A few people got "talks"(slaps on the wrist) about their openly homosexual behaviour in front of everyone. They all went on outreach. For the record, when I was told by the YWAM staff 1 week before I was to leave on outreach that they did not want me on outreach, I asked them if I had done anything wrong. I ask them to clarify their reasons and they did make it clear to me that I had not commited any "sin" or done anything wrong...except for the one time I questioned, but that that was not the reason they were sending me home. They made it clear that they were sending me home because they "prayed to God" and felt that I was "not social enough" and was "an introvert." After having left I of course found out how true all those words about "we all love and care about you very much" and "we do care about you." really were.......
I never heard back from them and when I got home....well.....back to the usual christian insanity at home and my parent's church.

The fact is, in YWAM, and christianity, it's all about the Beautiful People. No, it's not just "one group of bad christians" but rather....almost every group of christians except for a few open minded non-evangelical churches. If you're an extrovert, and popular, then yes, there is plenty of love waiting for you in christianity. If you ask questions and want to understand things and/or desire a real and deep spirituality, or if you're just not popular...well.......you are considered as one of the horrible people and are either going to be abused or kicked out by "holy spirit love filled" christians. it's all about......
the Beautiful People........

If any YWAMer believes that I'm on the wrong path and that they have "The Spiritual Truth" and answers then feel free to send me a message, I'd love to discuss these things with you and discover "truth"(If I indeed have not found it yet)."

 

[Reannan]

Here is a posting he left from 12/1/07:

"Insane things we went through in christian homeschool
Me and this caller, "Devin on DMLive" were raised in homeschool and we both went through some insane stuff growing up in The Nightmare that outsiders just do not understand.

"Devin's" call begins at about 5:34 in the mp3 file from 2007-11-18 9 PM Central on dmlive.com/listenindex.html. It’s the second call in the 9 PM hour from 11-18-2007. Dawson Mcallister told Devin… “This is horrifying....”

Me, I remember the beatings and the fighting and yelling and insane rules and all the Bill Gothard bull**** and then trancing out...sh**......I'm still tranced out. I remember how it was like every day was Mission Impossible trying to keep the rules or not get caught and just....survive every single *advertiser censored**ing day. My mother's a *advertiser censored**ing psycho too, her and her whole church and christian family.

Of course people will say the usual fake answers "just stop being this way and be happy from now on..." "we don't have the time and the energy to give a s*** about you..." "you're not the only one who has it bad" "I had it a lot worse than you and I'm happy and doing great" "you're not popular you know...no one likes you very much"

I'll take Dawson's advice to Devin:
"it's almost like you've come back from a war and are having flashbacks" "ONE MORE, just ONE MORE bit of psychological abuse from your mother and you WALK, you are OUT THAT DOOR saying 'I won't live like this anymore EVER'."

I'm not getting any younger and it's time for the abuse to stop. Just because I'm not one of the "Beautiful People," just because other people don't understand or because I'm not "popular" does not mean I need to take any more s*** from anyone.

Listen to what Devin describes in his call...maybe it might help people who don't understand to.......feel what I feel

Cherish your life"

 

[JanetElaine]

And JanetElaine, do you really believe that it can be "very simply explained"? The posts that followed prove that that is not possible.

Yes I do. Of course I am talking about what I said, not anybody elses posts.

And, please, don't tell me that you all don't realize that arguments about religion will not result in arguments and hurt feelings....

Yes I realize that. I also think that this does not happen because of the topic discussed, but because of people taking things (too) personally and taking things out of context. It is very possible to have an objective discussion about this and I have done so on many occasions. I also know that at WS it is against the TOS to discuss religion so I am going to be my own mod now.

It was opinion, I thought I was entitled to mine. Guess not.

Yes you are. And it amazes me that when people react to something you said, you go complaining about 'not being entitled to your opinion'. That's IMO ridiculous because nobody even said anything hateful/hurtful or was 'attacking' you, just simple, clean explanations in reaction to a question you asked. It happens in all threads all over this forum, but as soon as it is about religion, people balk. That's probably exactly why WS banned this kind of talk, and it also proves my earlier point above.

 

[bnhall]

His post makes him sound very intelligent and even rational. The claims he makes seem farfetched, but based on having several friends go to a private evangelical school, are completely plausible. I wonder what was the final straw for him that made him snap. Earlier reports saying he heard voices make me think he had a mental illness. It makes me wonder if he was being treated by religion instead of by medication. If he had a mental illness to begin with and people had concerns about him as long as five years ago, why did they not get him help? The cnn article I linked to below inteviews his ex-roommate, who says Murray was the first person he thought of when he heard about the shootings. I AM NOT saying what Murray did was the appropriate way to deal with his feelings. I am saying that the anger he felt was justified when people who say they follow the teaching of Christ can cast someone aside who obviously needs help.

A cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/shooter.youth/index.html) article says

He said Murray was told in December 2002 he would not be allowed to join a mission trip to Bosnia. That was five days after Murray performed a pair of dark rock songs at a concert at the mission that made fellow workers "pretty scared," according to Werner

Werner, of Balneario Camborius, Brazil, said he had a bunk near Murray's and that Murray would roll around in bed and make noises.
"He would say, 'Don't worry, I'm just talking to the voices,' " Werner said. "He'd say, 'Don't worry, Richard. You're a nice guy. The voices like you.' "

Werner said he instantly suspected Murray when he heard the news of Sunday's shootings.

This is purely my opinion, but what happened here shows exactly what can go wrong (Murray) and what can go right (the security guard) when it comes to religion.

 

[bnhall]

CNN.com breaking news says autopsy shows gunman killed himself.

 

[Marthatex]

I think the woman who shot this creep did a great job, and I am glad she was there. There were 7000 people there at the time! Seven Thousand People! That is a huge crowd, and worthy of security no matter why they are gathered in a single spot. This woman made statements that will be viewed as controversial to many because they refer to her religion. Get over it. SHE had a right to say what she said. Her religion is probably part of the reason she VOLUNTERED to work security at that church. If she felt her God helped her and protected her, she has the right to say so, and WE have no right to question her on it. I am sick of people questioning what the "f" other people SAY. American's need to grow a thicker skin and be more tolerant of other people's opinion. This creep that destroyed these lives did so because he was rejected. Good God, how many times have I been rejected from something? The more you try, the more you will get rejected before you find your place in life. We have raised a society of pathetic, pitiful, mewling bastards and *advertiser censored* that can't stand to loose. The world cannot go on like this. Mother Nature will step in and fill the shoes that the biological "mother" has vacated. If these people had something REAL to worry about, i.e. famine, plague, disease, war, etc......they would not be so damned upset about being rejected from some missionary group. Watch for a calibration by Mother Nature within our society in the next three or four decades. People will begin to realize they have more important things to worry about than being allowed into some man-made group. God help us all.

I'm sure his problems ran alot deeper than just getting rejected from the Missionary Training, although being raised in a tight group like that and being rejected would be hard.

What was his family support? Was there mental illness; did they refuse to take drugs for religious reasons? Why couldn't he get over that after 4years? Did the parents try to get help for him? Why on earth didn't they arrest him after all these threats?

And I feel your language is inappropriate and distracts from the points you might be trying to make.

These boys really hate THEMSELVES, and then go on to not valuing other's lives either. Doesn't matter whether it's Cho; who was depressed, Martin in the Omaha shooting who was disturbed and depressed, or this young man who was more affluent but distrubed and depressed.

 

[SLP]

CNN.com breaking news says autopsy shows gunman killed himself.

I read this too and I think it is good news...at least in this situation. The guard will know that she brought him down and saved lives but that he ultimately took his own life (because he knew he had a one way ticket to prison IMO) not her. That has to make this better for her.

 

[reb]

<Watch for a calibration by Mother Nature within our society in the next three or four decades. People will begin to realize they have more important things to worry about than being allowed into some man-made group.>

next three or four decades....?? good grief,, it's happening RIGHT NOW. but we humans are too stupid to realize it or do anything about it. we're going to get exactly what we deserve.

 

[reb]

btw.., it's very interesting that this guy was home-schooled and not sent to some crummy public school to be bullied or whatever. isn't this the sort of thing that homeschooling is supposed to prevent...???

 

[BarnGoddess]

I have spent a lot of time today googling and reading about Pentecostal beliefs and the YWAM groups and on forums, both pro and anti. One or two posts gave me some startling insight into possible causes for Murray to "lose it". One lady expressed her experience in a church where she was told she'd be struck dead if she took communion an acknowledged and confessed all her sins. She said she was petrified that as she ate the bread and drank the grape juice she feared she would die because she may not have prayed enough during the forced hour on her knees. That is sad. That is fear. That is manipulation. Also being totally home-schooled and under the influence of extremely religious parents, especially his mother, I would suspect that Matthew Murray was isolated from very many outside socialization opportunities. From today's reading, I found that some extreme groups totally discourage interaction with those outside of their immediate sphere. Very, very interesting insight reading the experiences of those in extreme religions and even what YWAM experiences many have had, both pro and con.

I'm not excusing his actions by any means, but I think I can see how some young people become twisted and their emotional growth is totally stunted. Some extreme sects are obviously based on power and certainly not any freedom of spirit.

 

[Camper]

Welllllll, just popping in for a hit and run post. Have NOT read this thread. I listen to local Denver favorite radio station for DETAILS on this and other mighty matters that concern the world we live in.

Just my opinion here. IF IF IF WE had not taken prayer from schools WE might have more people not jumping on the bandwagon listening to people who have strange and damaging beliefs.

My memory of morning prayer at the age of 7, in the Michigan school system was this.

Dear Mrs. Duffy our teacher, would lead us all in the pledge to the American Flag to start our school day in 1st grade, and then she would explain prayer time.

She would say that we would take a minute or two to think our own private thoughts and to pray IF we wished to. We would all close our eyes and bow our heads and those quiet moments set many a youngster to thoughts of kindness, just because it was dear Mrs. Duffy who gave us choices on what to consider in our thoughtful process, and that we could pray or just think private thoughts about family or whatever was of concern for us all.

Mrs. Duffy would tell us all when to raise our heads and be seated for class to start. This was 1939.

IF such training began at an early age, we would at least have fewer WILD cards showing up when WE least expect it, in the mall, the school yard, or in the home.

Simple is as simple does. Works for good people. When does one turn into a not good person? When and where does that process start?

I won't discuss this further, but encourage everyone to think about their own behaviors towards others. As one thinks, one becomes.

.

 

[csds703]

Welllllll, just popping in for a hit and run post. Have NOT read this thread. I listen to local Denver favorite radio station for DETAILS on this and other mighty matters that concern the world we live in.

Just my opinion here. IF IF IF WE had not taken prayer from schools WE might have more people not jumping on the bandwagon listening to people who have strange and damaging beliefs.

My memory of morning prayer at the age of 7, in the Michigan school system was this.

Dear Mrs. Duffy our teacher, would lead us all in the pledge to the American Flag to start our school day in 1st grade, and then she would explain prayer time.

She would say that we would take a minute or two to think our own private thoughts and to pray IF we wished to. We would all close our eyes and bow our heads and those quiet moments set many a youngster to thoughts of kindness, just because it was dear Mrs. Duffy who gave us choices on what to consider in our thoughtful process, and that we could pray or just think private thoughts about family or whatever was of concern for us all.

Mrs. Duffy would tell us all when to raise our heads and be seated for class to start. This was 1939.

IF such training began at an early age, we would at least have fewer WILD cards showing up when WE least expect it, in the mall, the school yard, or in the home.

Simple is as simple does. Works for good people. When does one turn into a not good person? When and where does that process start?

I won't discuss this further, but encourage everyone to think about their own behaviors towards others. As one thinks, one becomes.

.

You should have read the thread.
Prayer was something that definately was not missing in this kids life, nor did he attend public school.

 

[colomom]

Spirituality can definitely create a system of brakes for one's loose cannon mind. This is especially true if taught in a compassionate, loving manner.

However, and I speak from personal experience, spirituality that teaches fear and submission (in the extreme) will often backfire and an EXTREMELY loose cannon mind will be the result.

"Brady Boyd, senior pastor of New Life Church, told reporters Tuesday he and his church had already forgiven Murray, even though he is still angry about what happened."

IMHO, forgiveness can be sadly lacking in our "spiritual lives" and immediate condemnation seems to be the choice of many.

SAD.

 

[Details]

A lot of the rationales that are often pulled out for shooters can't be applied. No public school, no school bullying, no lack of religion, no lack of church, no lack of faith (he was in missionary school, and mad to be kicked out). No broken home, no drugs, no muslim, no nothing.


I just think it's interesting, because next time there's a shooter, if he's not perfect in all of these categories, that missing category will be blamed - if he's muslim, it'll be all muslims, if he's from a public school, it'll be bullying, if he's non-religious, it'll be due to a lack of faith in schools and people's lives, etc. But here we have one with what the conventional wisdom would say is the whole package - missing every factor that people like to blame.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Spirituality can definitely create a system of brakes for one's loose cannon mind. This is especially true if taught in a compassionate, loving manner.

However, and I speak from personal experience, spirituality that teaches fear and submission (in the extreme) will often backfire and an EXTREMELY loose cannon mind will be the result.

"Brady Boyd, senior pastor of New Life Church, told reporters Tuesday he and his church had already forgiven Murray, even though he is still angry about what happened."

IMHO, forgiveness can be sadly lacking in our "spiritual lives" and immediate condemnation seems to be the choice of many.

SAD.

You said the above, which I bolded, very well. I did find this in the extreme while I googled. I was engrossed with what I was learning. Not being from that kind of background, I was astounded at what damage can be done to our children and peers in the name of religion. I was taught and passed on to my own two children, independent thinking. I never drilled anything into their heads, well, except manners and respect for others:angel:

 

[BarnGoddess]

A lot of the rationales that are often pulled out for shooters can't be applied. No public school, no school bullying, no lack of religion, no lack of church, no lack of faith (he was in missionary school, and mad to be kicked out). No broken home, no drugs, no muslim, no nothing.


I just think it's interesting, because next time there's a shooter, if he's not perfect in all of these categories, that missing category will be blamed - if he's muslim, it'll be all muslims, if he's from a public school, it'll be bullying, if he's non-religious, it'll be due to a lack of faith in schools and people's lives, etc. But here we have one with what the conventional wisdom would say is the whole package - missing every factor that people like to blame.

I do agree in principle, but after really, really submersing myself in what could have molded him into a killer, I became convinced he was damaged by those around him, all in the name of religion. BTW, the missionary school is not entirely blameless according to any number of posters on websites who have had personal experience with the YWAM group.

 

[colomom]

You said the above, which I bolded, very well. I did find this in the extreme while I googled. I was engrossed with what I was learning. Not being from that kind of background, I was astounded at what damage can be done to our children and peers in the name of religion. I was taught and passed on to my own two children, independent thinking. I never drilled anything into their heads, well, except manners and respect for others:angel:

Thank you...and...

 

[bnhall]

Murray's parents speak.

"...We are lost in grief as we prepare to bury our beloved son, Matthew. We loved Matthew with all our hearts, and we are groping for answers as we try in vain to understand the events of last Sunday. We pray that God will be with our family through the days and weeks ahead and that He will also be with the families of those who have died and those who were injured...."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14832239/detail.html