CO - Four killed, 5 injured in Arvada & Colorado Springs church shootings, 9 Dec 2007

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Could the reason simply be problem resolution? We, as a society, SUCK at it. And, its growing worse every day.
 
Toby said:
Could the reason simply be problem resolution? We, as a society, SUCK at it. And, its growing worse every day.
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I read the article posted above and the scripture quoted reminded me that certain personality disordered people aren't diagnosed properly nor treated for the most part. When the scripture spoke about other aspects that could be acquired if there was love I started thinking of the missing piece to so many crimes. It continued on with no love nothing is attainable etc. Not necessarily that someone didn't love this person or that person but that the person didn't feel love ever.

That link that makes us compassionate/caring seems to be broken with some people. This is what needs to be addressed in youth not in adulthood as it is too late then.
 
concernedperson said:
I read the article posted above and the scripture quoted reminded me that certain personality disordered people aren't diagnosed properly nor treated for the most part. When the scripture spoke about other aspects that could be acquired if there was love I started thinking of the missing piece to so many crimes. It continued on with no love nothing is attainable etc. Not necessarily that someone didn't love this person or that person but that the person didn't feel love ever.

That link that makes us compassionate/caring seems to be broken with some people. This is what needs to be addressed in youth not in adulthood as it is too late then.
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Having worked with children for many, many years, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
 
I just read quotes from the killer's blogging and he was really upset at the popular church kids and not being asked to their fun parties. Also, he was asked to leave a non christian astral type group as well as being asked to leave the Mission group. One young man reported that he was hearing voices, or at least said that he was. The boy was just plain weird and disturbed. He wasn't asked to parties because normal everyday kids were uncomfortable around him. He needed to be in a mental hospital not in church type atmospheres for healing or trying to fit in. I've always thought that churches are too into and about socializing, but no one wants to be around someone who acts weird or threatening all the time. He also hinted at being physically, psychologicall, and sexually abused, but I don't know that I'd believe it. What a shame.
 
I don't know why he was broken - but - he had plenty of choices. Whatever was wrong, whereever it came from, he seemed for a long time to have a strong dark side, enjoy frightening people with the 'voices', dark music, etc. - I think this was just a bullying sicko who enjoyed seeing people scared.

He had plenty of options, could have gone anywhere, had the website people accepting him, go out and get a job and make any life he likes. I think he wasn't asked to the parties because what was wrong was obvious to everyone else - if one group didn't accept him, they could just be clique-y - but when multiple don't, it's a problem with him, not the group. I just hear what he has to say, his life story - and I don't see anything to make me sympathetic at all.
 
Unless you are or were involved in this type of extreme fundamentalist hyper-religious organization, you would not be able to understand the sense of confusion and hopelessness that can result from being told that you are possessed by the devil or by demons. This is especially true if you have been raised in this environment and do not know any other way of living. You would not understand the lack of support or the ostracizing that goes on. Add to the mix confusion about one's sexuality and you could be looking a very bleak future indeed.

I believe Matthew was distressed at the hypocrisy that he was witnessing around him. I believe he was angry about the sense of entitlement he was seeing. In NO WAY do I condone how he handled his distress but, I can understand how he might have come to that place. The "voices" he heard were not the voices that you might imagine. They are not the voices experienced by someone suffering from schizophrenia, for instance. They are more like a constant, very noisy battle between "good and evil" or "right and wrong" that goes on inside your head. Without an outside support system firmly in place it is very, very difficult to find a way out, to find a way to quiet those voices. And just thinking about finding a "way out" would bring on even worse confusion. You would think, "am I inviting a demon thinking that way?". That is what you are taught.

Matthew's parents were absolutely right when they quoted First Corinthians, Chapter 13, Verses 1-13 (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14832239/detail.html). I really believe that if Matthew had been able to reach out and ask for help and in response received unconditional love, we would not be here discussing this tragedy.
 
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition
By Cal Thomas
Thursday, December 13, 2007

I have been waiting for this to happen. For years we have witnessed the carnage when innocents were mowed down at schools, colleges, shopping malls and post offices. The unarmed (disarmed?) were easy targets for crazed gunmen armed with grievances, weapons and ammunition.


Now someone has shot back, probably saving many lives. All of the gun-control laws that have been passed and are still being contemplated could not have had the affect of one armed, trained and law-abiding citizen on the scene like 42-year-old Jeanne Assam, a volunteer security guard at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. The gunman, 24-year-old Mathew Murray, had been expelled from the Youth With a Mission (YWAM) organization for health reasons, according to officials. Authorities say Murray vowed revenge in several Web postings, which copied abundantly from the manifesto written by Columbine High School killer Eric Harris before the 1999 school massacre.


 In rants laced with profanity, Murray lashed out against Christians he said had “brought this on yourselves.” He wrote that Christians “are to blame for most of the problems in the world.” Does that qualify as a “hate crime”? Probably not as such designations are usually given only to “oppressed minorities.”

It is Assam and not the shooter who received — and deserves — most of the media attention and praise. Calm and collected at a news conference, Assam detailed her movements and decision-making after hearing shots in the parking lot outside the church. She was especially attentive to possible danger after learning of the earlier shooting during which two people were killed at the YWAM facility several miles away. After hearing shots in the church parking lot, Assam said she walked about 100 yards through a hallway, hid herself and when Murray walked in, emerged from hiding and confronted him. “I was just asking God, bottom line, this is all you,” she said. “It was so loud. … It was scary. But God was with me. I asked him to be with me. And he never left my side.”


continued:
http://www./columnists/CalThomas/2007/12/13/praise_the_lord_and_pass_the_ammunition
 
So now authorities are saying he DIDN'T threaten the missionary center prior to the shootings.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14858399/detail.html

Gee, you sure can't believe half of what comes out in the news after a crime.

This boy, who appeared to have a good family, seems just the opposite of the boy who killed in the Omaha Mall. That boy was virtually "homeless", had little, and never was able to form close connections to loved ones in formative years.

It sure seems to me that this boy's family could have seen some signs and gotten him some psychological help. (I wonder if they didn't believe in it; only believed in pastoral care)
 
Marthatex said:
It sure seems to me that this boy's family could have seen some signs and gotten him some psychological help. (I wonder if they didn't believe in it; only believed in pastoral care)
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I think you've hit the nail on the head here, MT. I was raised in a fundamentalist home where only Jesus could help you.
 
Marthatex said:
So now authorities are saying he DIDN'T threaten the missionary center prior to the shootings.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14858399/detail.html

Gee, you sure can't believe half of what comes out in the news after a crime.

This boy, who appeared to have a good family, seems just the opposite of the boy who killed in the Omaha Mall. That boy was virtually "homeless", had little, and never was able to form close connections to loved ones in formative years.

It sure seems to me that this boy's family could have seen some signs and gotten him some psychological help. (I wonder if they didn't believe in it; only believed in pastoral care)
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And Jeanne Assam did not kill Matthew Murray either - he killed himself http://cbs4denver.com/crime/matthew.murray.gunman.2.608821.html

This is a tragic story all the way around ... young, mentally ill man from an apparently loving, caring family goes out and buys several guns (including an AK47) in the last few weeks and no "discovers" it or questions why this young man who has never been hunting or has never even owned a gun in the past goes out and suddenly starts "collecting".
 
bnhall said:
In Arvada, Tiffany Johnson, 26, was killed at a Youth With a Mission dormitory when she declined to provide shelter to a man in his 20s seeking a place to sleep. As Johnson started to offer him alternatives, the man opened fire, killing her and Philip Crouse, 24. Two other staffers waiting up for stragglers to return from a youth bowling trip were wounded before the man ran away through the snow.

Shortly after 1 p.m. at a large evangelical church 70 miles away, a heavily armed man roughly matching the same description as the Arvada gunman opened fire on a van in the New Life Church parking lot.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7678737
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I just found out yesterday that Tiffany Johnson is the niece of the owner of the company I work for.

My boss (her uncle) is the youngest of 10 children, so Tiffany had alot of extended family here in Minnesota. The wake was yesterday and her funeral is today. How sad.

My boss and his wife are hosting our formal holiday party at their home tonight - it had been planed for the last 2 months - we would have understood if it had been canceled/postponed...maybe they couldn't because of the caterers/help they have hired?

This is such a sad/tragic story.
 
Greywing said:
And Jeanne Assam did not kill Matthew Murray either - he killed himself http://cbs4denver.com/crime/matthew.murray.gunman.2.608821.html

This is a tragic story all the way around ... young, mentally ill man from an apparently loving, caring family goes out and buys several guns (including an AK47) in the last few weeks and no "discovers" it or questions why this young man who has never been hunting or has never even owned a gun in the past goes out and suddenly starts "collecting".
Click to expand...

That is so disgusting to me. No waiting periods? No computer system to track someone buying a bunch of guns?

How did he get in the dorm though? Wasn't it 2:00am or so?
 
It is a 450-page report by Colorado Springs Police with pictures of weapons used to kill four people and a detailed timeline of where gunman Matthew Murray was and when.

The report was released by Colorado Springs police on Wednesday.

In the report, Murray's demeanor was described by various witnesses as "casual," "not panicked." He "walked" to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs after killing two sisters in the parking lot.

In a letter "To God," Murray asks: "What have I done so wrong? What is wrong with me anyway? Am I really such a bad person?"

More at link...
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=87999
 
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