DNA/Forensic Evidence

[wtsn5]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

 

[gord]

Not if she was contained in something, like a trash bag or box or something.

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye

 

[englishleigh]

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye

OK, so...maybe it WAS a trash bag. We don't know exactly WHAT the PJ have found, do we? But they have found something, and it was not transference materials, they said they have evidence it came directly from the dead body of Madeleine.

 

[gord]

OK, so...maybe it WAS a trash bag. We don't know exactly WHAT the PJ have found, do we? But they have found something, and it was not transference materials, they said they have evidence it came directly from the dead body of Madeleine.

at the moment there a lot of conflicting stuff coming from the PJ - I dont think you can distinguish between DNA that comes from a living body or an dead body - DNA is DNA

It would not be that surprising if there was some sort of 99% DNA of Maddys in the car - as has been poited out - but this could be skin / saliva - anything . I have not seen any report that there is direct evidence that proves Maddy's body was in the car - none

In think that if the PJ had some sort of 100% cast iron evidence then the Mcaans would not have left portugal

 

[englishleigh]

at the moment there a lot of conflicting stuff coming from the PJ - I dont think you can distinguish between DNA that comes from a living body or an dead body - DNA is DNA

I think the PJ has said, it was definite post-mortem DNA...it definitely came from a deceased Maddie, as opposed to a live Maddie.

 

[gord]

I think the PJ has said, it was definite post-mortem DNA...it definitely came from a deceased Maddie, as opposed to a live Maddie.

this came from the bbc web site

quote

Can investigators establish if the DNA sample comes from someone who was alive or dead?
Unlikely, according to British experts. A DNA profile does not change just because someone dies. You can tell if DNA has degraded but that can happen if, for example, it had been exposed to sunshine.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece

 

[BloodshotEye]

For the moment, I am entertaining the possibility that this report is accurate (who knows, right?). Meaning, that the results of some type of analytical testing has yielded the conclusion, that this is post mortem DNA. I will speculate that, the DNA sample was/included cellular material, that may exhibit certain changes, post mortem. The DNA sequence is not what suggests the "post mortem state", but rather the cellular material from which the DNA is obtained.

Examples might be: liver, kidney, pancreas, heart tissue, etc.

I read a UK newpaper, absolutely go on a rant about how this is obviously a ridiculous frame up, bla bla bla - as everyone knows that DNA sequencing does not/cannot determine a living vs. a dead person. How lame was that. They conveniently did not address the fact that certain types of cellular material may, indeed, suggest a post mortem state. At that point, I came to the conclusion that the UK papers have an obvious agenda.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Question: Does anyone have a link to a news source, that specifically reports that FSS is the one that is conducting the sample collection from the car, hotel apartment, etc.? Thanks in advance.

DNA/Forensics Who's Who

1. Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for Portugal’s PolÍcia Judiciária
2. Alipio Ribeiro, head of the investigative Policia Judiciaria, who has been quoted in newspaper articles. eg. "But Alipio Ribeiro, head of the investigative Policia Judiciaria, today revealed the returned tests from the Forensic Science Service (FSS) in Birmingham were not conclusive".

3. Guilhermino Encarnacao - director of the judicial police in the Faro region. Reported that officers responded within 10 minutes of being alerted.

4. Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses - Algarve-based prosecutor.

5. Forensic Science Service (FSS) - Located in Birmingham England. It is reported to be a government-owned laboratory. This U.K. laboratory is reported to be the lab that is conducting the DNA analyticals.

6. Birmingham Lab - the FSS laboratory that is conducting the DNA analyticals.

7. British Sniffer Dogs - Keela and Eddie. The newspapers seem to refer to these dogs as "sniffer dogs" and cadaver dogs.

8. Leicestershire Police - The U.K. police that are are working very closely on the case, reported to be often liaising on a daily basis with the PJ.

Mod: Feel free to move this post, if you like. If you see any errors, don't hesitate to post corrections.

 

[Texana]

For the moment, I am entertaining the possibility that this report is accurate (who knows, right?). Meaning, that the results of some type of analytical testing has yielded the conclusion, that this is post mortem DNA. I will speculate that, the DNA sample was/included cellular material, that may exhibit certain changes, post mortem. The DNA sequence is not what suggests the "post mortem state", but rather the cellular material from which the DNA is obtained.

Examples might be: liver, kidney, pancreas, heart tissue, etc.

I read a UK newpaper, absolutely go on a rant about how this is obviously a ridiculous frame up, bla bla bla - as everyone knows that DNA sequencing does not/cannot determine a living vs. a dead person. How lame was that. They conveniently did not address the fact that certain types of cellular material may, indeed, suggest a post mortem state. At that point, I came to the conclusion that the UK papers have an obvious agenda.

Which wouldn't be surprising as one little snippet I read this morning said that an attorney for the McCanns or the McCanns themselves would be meeting with media representatives in an effort to get the news articles reported back in their favor again.

 

[BloodshotEye]

I read that too, Texana. Unbelievable.

The posturing of the McCanns, suggests to me they know they are so far into this, due to their obvious neglect of the children and lying about it. Their "believability quotient" (if there is such a thing), is a big zero. What have they got to loose, by using a media relations specialist?

A Media relations person, or public relations spokes-mouth, would be expensive. If it were me, I would much rather spend the money on the best and most successful private investigator. Seems that there are some people who resort to "deflecting" the scrutiny of the press - away from them, with the aid of a public relations hack. As soon as that happens, I feel that we are more likely to see "spin for sympathy", rather then a parents' quest for the truth.

And while I am on a rant (pardon me), who on earth suggested to these parents that they should spend money traveling the globe, passing out t-shirts and armbands to the pope? That, rather then soliciting and paying for the help of the top 3 private investigative teams who work internationally?

It smells...big time.

 

[Smurf]

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye

What about a Rubbermaid Tote? I don't know if they would have traveled with one but there could have been one in the apartment complex that they emptied out and then buried her in it somewhere nearby.....If they had a key to the church and were able to be alone there-they could have found the tools they needed (shovels etc. in the garden shed) and would have had ample time to get their stories straight and plan what to do from there on out.

 

[Whiner]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6992372.stm

"The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case."

 

[CaliKid]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

Let's assume that Madeleine had her hair brushed every day. Probably the twins did too. Even cleaning a hairbrush, you aren't going to get everything out.

It would be process of elimination. Collect the hair in the brush. Collect the hair of every occupant of the apartment. Analzye the hair. Match out samples to known occupants- the rest of the family. Whatever is a close match to the children, but not an exact match, must be Madeleine's.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Smurf, that is an excellent question. I wonder if people at the University of Tennessee have tested various containers for permeability of cadaver scent. Cadaver scent being:
- Hydrogen sulfide
- Ammonia
- Mercaptans
- Ptomaines (any of several toxic bases formed by decarboxylation of an amino acid, often by bacterial action), such as the following),
* Cadaverine (a foul-smelling nitrogenous base),
* Pentamethylenediamine, produced by decarboxylation of lysine. It is produced in decaying protein material by the action of bacteria, particularly species of Vibrio.
* Putrescine/Tetra-methylene-diamine. A polyamine first found in decaying animal tissues but now known to occur in almost all tissues and in cultures of certain bacteria. It is formed by decarboxylation of ornithine and is itself a precursor of Spermidine
* Muscarine
* Neurine (A poisonous ptomaine with a fishy odor, formed by dehydration of choline during putrefaction and found in decaying fish, fungi, and also in the brain and in many other normal tissues; used in biochemical research).
* Ptomatropine [ptomaine + atropine] (A poison from putrid sausages and the viscera of corpses of those dead from typhoid fever; it has effects somewhat like those of atropine).

And then we've got those gasses produced in "fermentation", when anaerobic conditions exist (Possibly under water or an airtight container?).


I think, given the right container as you suggest, like a very tightly fitting plastic lid/bin - it might buy you a couple of days. Maybe 3 days. If the container were something that was promoted as being "water tight", such as those that hold expensive camera and video equipment, and have a gasket around the lid and box opening, you might be able to store a body for a bit longer. Examples of these containers are those under the brand name "Pelican". If the container were metal, with the requisite gaskets (to prevent out-gassing), putrefaction might take even longer, as the metal often inhibits microbial activity; thereby "buying" someone more days in which to dispose of a body.

Wow. That would be a great thesis, if anyone from U of T Forensic Anthropology Facilty is reading this thread ;]

 

[Smurf]

Well all of that just went right over my little head....

I was just thinking maybe she was transported or buried in this type of container as they are easy to find in most locations like the apartment complex or the church.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Sorry Smurf, that I went off on a tangent. I do that often. Don't mind me ;]

I simply expanded your excellent theory, just a bit. You got me thinking, of how we can use plastic snap-lid containers (Tupperware) to stow something in the refrig. These containers seem to contain food odors very well.

Trust your instincts, Smurf. You have visualized a simple, yet kind of ingenious scenario. Those are the best. A rubbermaid-like container, large enough to contain a body, yet compact enough to be transported or buried. It is not an exotic type of container. Found all over.

And the practicality of using such a container? It just might contain the odor of putrefaction, such that it is not really detectable by people. At least, they probably don't know what they are smelling at that point, unless they know what a dead body smells like.

Stay with it Smurf - it is a very good theory.

 

[Smurf]

thank you, most of my posts are basically boring and already been hashed out elsewhere.

 

[Smurf]

BYW; I guess I don't really know what a dead body smells like; unless it smells like that dead mouse or whatever that we can't locate out in the shed.

Or would it smell like that whiff of awful smell you get when you visit an old nursing home- Not the new ones with the good a/c and fresh paint smell but the older-low income ones.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Smurf: I would say that it is going to smell more like your dead mouse. But many times stronger.

Have you have ever encountered a larger animal, such as a large raccoon or coyote, that was injured somehow, and scurried off into the bushes, and died there? Man. The stench cuts through the air like a knife. Our reaction is so reflexive. Meaning, that our brain appears to send this signal to the autonomic nervous system (responsible for blinking eyes, swallowing, respiration, etc.), that stops you from breathing in air. You would be able to smell the putrifaction, if you walked by a house, and a person had died, and had simply remained in the house.

If someone is buried in a shallow grave, a person would be able to smell the putrification for a time. The shorter and longer limits of this time interval would be dependant upon the conditions. And then, at some point, there is nothing more to ferment or putrify, and the odor would likely become less strong over a significant amount of time. It might be easily mistaken for rotting food, garbage, sewage, rotting fish at the bottom of a stagnent pond...that sort of thing.

I marvel at how the Turkey Vultures seem to sniff out these dead animals, considering their crusing altitude can be pretty significant (they look like little specks up in the sky). When I see them take on that watchful flight pattern, I know that I can find something dead, located directly below that tight "circle" they have defined.

 

[Betsy]

My kids found a dead bird and wanted to bury it, so we put it in a tupperware container and buried it in the garden (complete with head stone and date!).

Within a day, I could smell it whenever I was in the backyard. It was awful. And it was a tiny bird.

On garbage day, it got thrown out (my kids do not know this). I felt so bad for the garbage man....