Hannah Graham: The Search

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One of the many things I find a bit disturbing is that when the public began talking about JM, there really was not a lot of negative chatter. I don't really remember anyone saying he had anger issues, a temper or that they thought he could be capable of this crime. Most felt he was basically normal guy, other than his obnoxiousness and consistent annoyance towards woman in trying to get their attention or get with them.
Let me tell you, Gentle Giant, my *advertiser censored**.
Yes, he was aggressive towards women in getting their attention, but what he is being suspected of is a huge leap.
Did he really do that great of a job in covering up the evil inside of him and coming off as just a big, goofy likable guy?

He did, but it was not because he was such a great actor, IMO. That was also an intricate part of JM. He could be a big, goofy, likeable guy, and probably was truly that way most of the time. That's the thing with anyone who does horrible things. They could kill someone in cold blood and take whatever time to do so which could be as little as an instant, and then be helping an old lady across the street, being generous kind and wonderful for the next however long, until something else crosses their path. They just are willing to go over a line that most of us stop short at, or even back off when we get a certain distance of it. When we get mad at someone, want something badly, notice some opportunity, we don't go there. JM and other criminals keep going and cross that line

Yeah guys pick up girls all of the time with the hopes of "Scoring". Morally wrong? Yeah, but if both adults are so interested even though they might both or just one not be in full control due to substance abuse, it happens all of the time, and is often truly consensual at the time. Noone makes anything of it afterwards, and it 's private business. Sometimes, the girl balks but it happens anyways, but it went way too far for the girl to make much of it since what the heck can be the evidence in a court of law when you go beyond a certain point and change your mind? But with JM, he went waaay beyond this many times. In some cases, still not far enough for a case to be made against him, but enough that the females in the situation took the trouble to file complaints with the university and for two schools to expel him on that basis. LE couldn't or wouldn't take it further but he was thrown out of the schools without any conviction, trial or charges,

His activities that night from what others have said show someone who crosses lines that most people wouldn't. Those women had to get rude with him, and he still pressed on. BUt even so, he came across more liek a bufoon than a predator. No one called the police. They just got away from him and I double if they had called LE, that any charges for what he did in public were chargeable, except possibly the guy he injured in horse play. But even that, the people right there, victim included did not think it was deliberate. Just a big goofy likeable guy who just goes a little too far. That incident, by the way, shows that his "obnoxiousness and consisten annoyance" was not just directed towards women. He's probably hurt a number of people, broken things all within a circle of "it's an accident" and may well have been. He punched an attorney, but the guy dropped the charges, because he truly felt it was a loss of temper immediate reaction and almost understanable JM always was close enough to normalcy and understandable breach of boundaries that people could see it as a mistake, and not press on. Also in court with so many charges so clearly over the line, these things will get dropped. If everyone, anyone got jailed for those thing, got a criminal record beyond a dropped complaint, the system overload would be ridiculous. JM has a horrendous record when one takes it in its entirety, but at what point was it a flag that this was a dangerous person?

Frankly, had he come from an upscale family, they would have made him go into heavy duty therapy with the lack of boundaries and problems he had with it. But that is not something that happens with most of the population. I'm hoping, but not really that optimistic, that the inclusion of mental health to be treated as physical health under health care provisions would open up that kind of treatment for those who have mental problems. No idea if it makes a difference, but at least something to be tried. That if he was going to a mental health specialist who was working on his behavior and impulse issues with him, that he could have learned the boundaries better. But if he's a true sociopath (and my opiion is he is), I don't think it would have made a difference. That 2005 rape was out of the blue, and there are no gray areas around it. MH's case is a murder, a brutal one from what I've been reading. Not someone who went a little too far here And we have Hannah still missing. Not at home or at UVA with charges files that JM went beyond boundaries. Nope missing people, corpses and raped victims with NO consent, not even a teeny bit in those three cases.
 
I know that the search is including drones form Va Tech and certain agencies have been using helicopters in the search, but what about aerial photography? Surely there might be someone willing to donate/volunteer that service.

It may seem redundant because they're using drones and helicopters but both methods rely on human eyes viewing a moving image. Unless I'm mistaken - they could be photographing as well - I'm not familiar with how that works. With aerial photography, you have the benefit of capturing an acre + at a time and it's amazing how many ground disturbances you pick up from viewing them.

Knew a person that had this done upon completion of their home and you could still easily pick up were they had uprooted a tree 8 months prior on the land.

Just a thought. Was hoping she would be found yesterday with the fantastic ground search they've been doing but getting a little worried they may scale it back before anything of significance is found.

****This is not to assume she was buried, just to say it's easy to notice anomalies in terrain with this method.

Excellent idea! Like you said, maybe someone can volunteer this service or they can use donations to help pay for it.
 
My first reaction, and it may still be the case, is that WG's interest in Hannah was not so savory. Attractive girl, looking confused, probably clearly inebriated, alone at that ime of the night with skimpy shiny top, yeah, it would catch some male eyes. But at this point, it doesn't matter. WG's story fits the facts right on tape. He sees Hannah, shows interest for whatever reason and then JM embraces her and off she goes with him willingly All on tape. And then WG probably has an alibi and is probably still on video footage afterwards, and no Hannah. JM and Hannah are the focus now as they go off tape, are placed around Tempo afterwards, and then disappear off tape.

Yes, and another thing to consider is if he is married or not. Because if married or if he has a serious girlfriend, maybe he asked LE to give the story about how he was concerned about her, rather than saying, hey he was interested in her for other reasons. YKWIM?
 
Why can't DNA alone convict him for Morgan's murder? DNA is usually the determining factor even without a body...if they have even a hair of Hannah's found in his apartment or car....this would play a huge factor in convicting him without her being found even.

We don't know what the DNA evidence is that they found. It may not even be a strong connect, and it could be something that could reasonably explained in a court of law. When one takes a case to court, all the theorizing and rationale and things that make sense have to meet the bar, and if there are reasonable theories to explain what the evidence, the instructions are supposed to be made clear to the jury that even a low down lying skunk with a prior historyof doing the same thing has to meet certain standards. It's really difficult to get a conviciton. Nothing has been said as to what the DNA conneciton to MH is. What if it's some matching, or sort of matching DNA on that shirt they found, not with her body, but in the area of where MH was last seen? Could be a lot of DNA on that shirt. A lot of explanations that have to be weighed seriously. We don't know what LE has and doesn't have. Notice that JM is not even being charged with MH's murder, much less convicted of it. There is just a connection and it could be a very tenuous one.
 
Not the only reason. I am relieved they have caught JM and he is off the streets. But if there is any possibility that he was involved in something more organized, I would like to see that possibility fully investigated. Spoken as a local:)

I agree that the trafficing needs to be examined. But I also think that it's far fetched. Looks like a simple case here, but getting the evidence isn't going to be easy. Maybe JM should claim that an organized slaver took HG off his hands and he has no idea who they might be . Enough people on the jury believe that one, he might beat a lot of the more serious charges. He could say he just introduces girls to some unknownperson who pays him for the intro and that's that. Wht they do afterwards, he doesn't follow the news.
 
Actually, the two case where JM is involved, the colleges did not "brush it under the rug". They EXPELLED a football player based on the allegations. What else can a college do? They are not LE. It was up to the victims and LE to follow up in the legal venue. They didn't. Maybe they couldn't. There has to be a certain standard of proof, evidence for even a chance of a conviction in these types of cases, and most of the time when it sexual harrassment, molestion, rape, that standard is not met. It's too important that the accused is not falsely accused. Those rights are strongly in place, and yes, the victims have to be scrutinized just as they must be in any cases. The problem with rape is that often the circumstancial evidence is againt the victim, and it comes down to her word against his. ANd in such cases, the courts cannot convict due to the presumption of innocense.

There was a case brought up here, where a victim agreed to sex, and then when she tried to leave, she says, the guy decided to rape her. Now how the heck do you win a case like that? It could be a lie Maybe when she left, the guy let her know he thought she was a *advertiser censored* and a low life and made crude remarks that cut to the quick, so she decidest to accuse him And yes, guys will do that. Pick up a girl, court her and afterwards dump her like she's garbage, and through the ages it's well know how bad the "wrath of a woman scorned" can be. there has to be evidence for a felony charge to be a go, and the nature of rape is such that it's difficult to prove.

The colleges did not care that the accusations did not make it to court and to a conviction. They expelled a pretty danged good football player, one who was a contributing player on those cases, never mind the victims dropped the charges , that it never went to cours or whatever. What else could a college do? They reacted with their toughtest sanction and it was up to LE and the victim to take it anywhere in the courts. It's not up to a colllege to decide whether a case is prosecuted. They just got rid of the guy when the accusation hit them as it was against their codes of conduct and they could do so. And all of this is years ago before this focus that is now on date rape and non consensual sex. IT's not the colleges at al, but LE and the victims that did not do their thing. Likely they could not with the evidence on the table With all of this right now, look at the actual charges out on JM. That's the best LE could do when he flew the coop, and they had nothing till he handed them the reckless driving charge by doing that right in front of their faces.

I understand your point, but one has to wonder what the consequences would be had this been a bigger school with a bigger football program, and he been an important part of THAT team. Would the school push to have that student kicked out, or would they just brush it under the rug?

Another thing to consider is that when a woman comes forward, there should be a serious investigation, rather than just thinking, oh she might be lying. Certainly, the physical act was probably just between the two people, but certainly there were probably other witnesses before and afterwards. In "normal" cases, the guy probably brags about it or says something about it to his friends the next day, YKWIM. Now, JM might have been different as I think he had very serious issues (obviously) that he was aware of, and so he might have tried to hide it from everyone.

I think the point is that yes, in this case, the colleges kicked him out, but what I suspect (MOO) is that it was because the claims were very disturbing as to how he went about doing the assault, that he was already strange anyway (as noted by some of his ex-teammates), and the football programs were small and so there wasn't much on the line for the schools to get rid of him. Also we do not know anything about the victims who reported him - maybe they were from well-to-do families with connections, which the schools thought it better to just get rid of him.

What happens when it's a big school, when the claims are not so shocking (but still sexual assault/rape), when the girl is perhaps a timid girl from a regular family, when the implications for the football program are big if they don't have this player with them, etc.?
 
BBM

First post here. (Hello everyone!)

Liberty University has a history of covering up sexual assaults. They have been financially penalized for it in the past. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/def...enter/cleryact/libertyuniversity/1983_001.pdf

How do we know that Liberty didn't make a deal with the victim? "You don't move forward with charges and we'll expel him. It will save you and us the embarrassment and it will make him go away."

Of course, I don't know that they DID do that - but it certainly needs to be investigated.

WELCOME!!!!! Excellent first post!
 
Mike Murillo ‏@MikeMurilloWTOP 1m1 minute ago
New information has search crews also focusing on an area in Nelson county. @WTOP #HannahGraham

Mike Murillo ‏@MikeMurilloWTOP 1m1 minute ago
No details on new information that has them also looking in Nelson county in addition to Albemarle County @WTOP #HannahGraham

https://twitter.com/MikeMurilloWTOP
 
Thanks skibaboo! I was just thinking I haven't heard of any searches today .. Praying these searches yield results today!
 
Mike Murillo ‏@MikeMurilloWTOP 1m1 minute ago
New information has search crews also focusing on an area in Nelson county. @WTOP #HannahGraham

Mike Murillo ‏@MikeMurilloWTOP 1m1 minute ago
No details on new information that has them also looking in Nelson county in addition to Albemarle County @WTOP #HannahGraham

https://twitter.com/MikeMurilloWTOP

Is that far from where Hannah disappeared?
 
Mi
He did, but it was not because he was such a great actor, IMO. That was also an intricate part of JM. He could be a big, goofy, likeable guy, and probably was truly that way most of the time. That's the thing with anyone who does horrible things. They could kill someone in cold blood and take whatever time to do so which could be as little as an instant, and then be helping an old lady across the street, being generous kind and wonderful for the next however long, until something else crosses their path. They just are willing to go over a line that most of us stop short at, or even back off when we get a certain distance of it. When we get mad at someone, want something badly, notice some opportunity, we don't go there. JM and other criminals keep going and cross that line

Yeah guys pick up girls all of the time with the hopes of "Scoring". Morally wrong? Yeah, but if both adults are so interested even though they might both or just one not be in full control due to substance abuse, it happens all of the time, and is often truly consensual at the time. Noone makes anything of it afterwards, and it 's private business. Sometimes, the girl balks but it happens anyways, but it went way too far for the girl to make much of it since what the heck can be the evidence in a court of law when you go beyond a certain point and change your mind? But with JM, he went waaay beyond this many times. In some cases, still not far enough for a case to be made against him, but enough that the females in the situation took the trouble to file complaints with the university and for two schools to expel him on that basis. LE couldn't or wouldn't take it further but he was thrown out of the schools without any conviction, trial or charges,

His activities that night from what others have said show someone who crosses lines that most people wouldn't. Those women had to get rude with him, and he still pressed on. BUt even so, he came across more liek a bufoon than a predator. No one called the police. They just got away from him and I double if they had called LE, that any charges for what he did in public were chargeable, except possibly the guy he injured in horse play. But even that, the people right there, victim included did not think it was deliberate. Just a big goofy likeable guy who just goes a little too far. That incident, by the way, shows that his "obnoxiousness and consisten annoyance" was not just directed towards women. He's probably hurt a number of people, broken things all within a circle of "it's an accident" and may well have been. He punched an attorney, but the guy dropped the charges, because he truly felt it was a loss of temper immediate reaction and almost understanable JM always was close enough to normalcy and understandable breach of boundaries that people could see it as a mistake, and not press on. Also in court with so many charges so clearly over the line, these things will get dropped. If everyone, anyone got jailed for those thing, got a criminal record beyond a dropped complaint, the system overload would be ridiculous. JM has a horrendous record when one takes it in its entirety, but at what point was it a flag that this was a dangerous person?

Frankly, had he come from an upscale family, they would have made him go into heavy duty therapy with the lack of boundaries and problems he had with it. But that is not something that happens with most of the population. I'm hoping, but not really that optimistic, that the inclusion of mental health to be treated as physical health under health care provisions would open up that kind of treatment for those who have mental problems. No idea if it makes a difference, but at least something to be tried. That if he was going to a mental health specialist who was working on his behavior and impulse issues with him, that he could have learned the boundaries better. But if he's a true sociopath (and my opiion is he is), I don't think it would have made a difference. That 2005 rape was out of the blue, and there are no gray areas around it. MH's case is a murder, a brutal one from what I've been reading. Not someone who went a little too far here And we have Hannah still missing. Not at home or at UVA with charges files that JM went beyond boundaries. Nope missing people, corpses and raped victims with NO consent, not even a teeny bit in those three cases.

I don 't think the case can be made that things went too far in the Fairfax case.

He attacked her to kill her. I think that is exactly what he did with MH And HG.

There was nothing intended but raping and killing.
 
BBM.

With respect, that is not exactly true. The federal government mandates that sexual assault on campus/in schools IS the schools' business. Under Title IX universities are required to conduct their own investigations, regardless of whether or not the victim has reported the assault to LE. There are many scenarios in which universities can--and do--make shameful decisions that brush sexual assault cases under the rug--including discouraging victims from making a police report. Liberty and CNU are the exceptions here, as very few universities exercise their most severe punishment against individuals found responsible for sexual assault. This is worth a read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/29/campus-sexual-assault_n_5888742.html.

First post--grew up in Lynchburg and work for a public university in VA.

:welcome:
 
BBM.

With respect, that is not exactly true. The federal government mandates that sexual assault on campus/in schools IS the schools' business. Under Title IX universities are required to conduct their own investigations, regardless of whether or not the victim has reported the assault to LE. There are many scenarios in which universities can--and do--make shameful decisions that brush sexual assault cases under the rug--including discouraging victims from making a police report. Liberty and CNU are the exceptions here, as very few universities exercise their most severe punishment against individuals found responsible for sexual assault. This is worth a read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/29/campus-sexual-assault_n_5888742.html.

First post--grew up in Lynchburg and work for a public university in VA.

:welcome:

just want to welcome a new sleuther
 
Is that far from where Hannah disappeared?

Nelson County is about a half hour from the downtown mall. There's not a lot in Nelson; it is quite rural. It is the county just to the south of Albemarle (in which Charlottesville is located). Also home to the Walton's. :)
 
So frustrating! They really need to know when he was next seen after leaving Tempo in his car. Maybe they do know what time he returned home. How much time elapsed? No cameras on stoplights? What direction was he headed? No bars were open at that hour and probably very little traffic, but if he passed any driver on a country road it seems like his god-awful-ugly-orange-beater of a car would have stood out like a sore thumb. I am sure it was seen, but people just haven't searched the recesses of their memory. JMO

That was my first thought when I saw the car! Like, you couldn't buy a more OBVIOUS car to use for your abductions??? Geez, get a gray car for gosh sakes.
 
Per Parker S FB: search warrants in Nelson re: Hannah have been sealed by court order and even the court order has been sealed.

Let's hope and pray this is a break in finding Hannah!
 
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