Legal Arguments - What went on behind Closed Doors?

[snoofer]

what did he mean about Tara is not complete and Rodney is not complete? is this a reference to their polys? in the youtube part 2 at about 13:15

odd thing to tell MR jmo

the detective was telling mtr what he wanted to hear so that he would talk MOO

detectives will lie to get the truth if they have to

 

[LilyMacBloom]

I'm movin on over to the verdict thread

 

[Flossie JMO]

the detective was telling mtr what he wanted to hear so that he would talk MOO

detectives will lie to get the truth if they have to

thanks ita, but wonder if it was the deceptive polys? I really dislike those things, no wonder they are not admissible JMO

 

[Flowercb]

i think he was just dropped on his head as a baby and is one sick puppy. MOO And genetics.

I wonder what type of childhood and boundries he had growing up.

Then again, noone has control of a psychopath--here is an article about psychopaths which is amazed and scared me. I wish I didn't have to stress about stupid things, these people don't stress about anything:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

 

[Shasta]

The following was cut and paste from this link: http://www.cancrime.com/2009/05/21/accused-child-killer-left-a-trail-online/

Rafferty’s profile on the dating site Plenty of Fish has now disappeared, but a Facebook user copied and preserved it:

mychol : I only want one,the one, HER in my life!
City london Ontario
Sign Scorpio
Height5′ 9″ (175 cm)
Age 28 year old Man
EthnicityCaucasian with Brown hair
Smoker? No
Body Type Athletic
Religion Non-Religious
Religious Rate Assessment: N/A
I am Seeking a Woman For Long Term
Do you drink? Socially
Marital Status Single
Profession dance instructor Smarts Graduate degree
Do you want children? Yes
Do you do drugs? No
Do you have children? No
Do you have a car? Yes

Interests golf wine cottages
ACC concerts eating out
steaks traveling summer
dogs driving road trips
going to games 80s movies chick flicks
Greys Anatomy exotic foods talking
listening electronics and cool gadgets my blackberry
long walks star gazeing tea not coffee
plays the gym/working out sunny days
rainy days the good old days friends
EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING I HAVE NEVER DONE

About Me
I am a man who cooks,and likes to fix things.I teach dance and run a contracting business. I have to be honest I want someone who doesn’t lie or cheat and someone who doesnt want to WIN the fight but rather weigh out what its really worth loseing what you have or just dropping it and moving forward with me.I dont want somene who will say things to hurt(dont tell me you love me,then tell me you dont)no head games PLEASE!! And I want someone who is wanting forever with someone and only them/me.I always tell it like it is and I always work at trying to better myself all the time.I do not believe I am perfect so when or if I get involved with someone. I believe I should try and not be so one way in thinking and shouldn’t change for anyone..I will never change who I am but will make alterations to how I do things to make someone happy and better our relationship.I am one of the good guys. I want someone to spend the rest of my life with and someone who I can make happier then they have ever been..And please No girls who cant take care of themselves emotionally and physically and no one who thinks the BAR every weekend is for sure the place to always be.Like common Grow up branch out and try to see there is more then just the bar and to drink all the time..You need to be emotionally stable and know what you want as well no wishy washy ppl..up and down up and down..It seems everyone is a drama queen these days..lol and not just the women either even the guys too are drama queens lol anyways talk soon I hope girls..I promiss if we went on a date,we would at least have a fun time and you wont feel like the time was waisted.even if we dont hit it off we could still maybe make a good friend out of it.
on that note I have alot to say about someone who makes the first move and say hello> The guys cant always be the ones to make first contact..so if you liek my profile a bit and my pic..then by all means say hello!!
If you are these types of EYES then you know who you are. This may not apply to all but I am sure it comes close enough

<modsnip>

 

[Wondergirl]

In the event of a NG verdict, perhaps the following cases related to evidence exclusion/inclusion as it relates to the Charter will be used by the Crown on appeal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Collins

which test was later replaced by:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Grant

which is considered a companion case to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Harrison

Hopefully we'll never have to see them go that route, but ...

Thank-you, Silly Billy.

If R. v. Little was only in the process of going through the courts in July 2009, and Judge Heeney used that case to rule against the Crown, is that 100% legally irrefutable?

 

[Wondergirl]

So, Rafferty didn't read online news at all prior to Tori's murder, and then constantly did afterward.

We know Bernardo and Williams did this also, followed the news stories, and got thrills out of knowing he wasn't caught.

Rafferty was downloading child *advertiser censored* back as far as 2004? He deserves a kick in the sack with a pair of steel toed boots.

JMO

On the hard drive, which was used from 2004 to 2006, police found child *advertiser censored* that had been downloaded using the program LimeWire.


It also showed that during this period, Rafferty rarely browsed news websites, which the Crown said was in sharp contrast to his behaviour following Stafford's disappearance when he was constantly reading online about the police investigation.


The Crown had wanted to use this evidence to support their theory of motive and pre-planning involved in the crimes

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Breach+a...ome+evidence/6601454/story.html#ixzz1uWuqippm

 

[Wondergirl]

I hope that the Snuff Film Rafferty downloaded, has been investigated, since it actually involved the murder of a *real child*.

*crying*

Part of this long history included a "substantial" amount of child *advertiser censored*, including "how-to" videos and slideshows on sexually assaulting children and even a "snuff" film &#8212; which depicts an actual murder &#8212; that starred a child.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Breach+a...ome+evidence/6601454/story.html#ixzz1uZeE1R76
​

 

[brighidin]

Thank-you, Silly Billy.

If R. v. Little was only in the process of going through the courts in July 2009, and Judge Heeney used that case to rule against the Crown, is that 100% legally irrefutable?

BBM
I think that if the Crown needs to appeal, it will be based on exactly that.

imo

 

[Wondergirl]

I watched part of the Rafferty Interrogation video this morning, and I absolutely love how the Detectives handed him a bucket so the could vomit, and they had complete disdain for him, the pr*&k.

The way he says "Terri-Lynne" with such disdain, so sneering, it is clear to see how he has convinced the people who think he is innocent, the ones who blame TLM for everything in this crime, very clear to see.

Rafferty was manipulating the LE in the video, so clearly. Rafferty says something like "I can be charged, but that doesn't mean I will be convicted".

The clearly put so much thought into this crime. Searching and searching for a partner. Someone stupid enough to help him and take the fall. TLM was a dream come true for him, and that is not to say that I think she is exempt from any of the heinous acts, because she is not.

ROT in HELL Rafferty.

 

[flipflop]

I have to tell you at one point I thought he was touching himself no kidding.

I honestly have felt sick to my stomach with these two monsters but more now that this information has come out. I want to go there and punch him in his face. I am so sickened by this and the fact that I wanted to believe she wasnt sexually assaulted then hearing this made me so sick to my stomach and I can even begin to imagine what Tori went through during her last hours of life.

How do these people fly under the radar for so long?? I dont understand it makes no sense to me. What is happening in this world?

All I do is look at this kids walking alone on the streets and I am afraid that they will be taken. I am going to be a bubble wrapped mother and I hate that I have to be that way but I could never imagine this happening to my child because I really would have lost my mind and then some.

Shame on these two degenerates.....Thats all I can say. I just cant get over what came out. This is just sick.

I thought the same, there was hand movements under that blanket....the P*****t was probably getting off while listening to the investigators.

 

[impatientredhead]

Graphic warning.

I am not surprised by the child *advertiser censored* theme whatsoever. I mentioned in one of my previous posts that there are without a doubt other children he has victimized. Pedophiles escalate their behavior, start with acts that have plausible deniability, start with non verbal age victims if available, and push the boundaries until they work up to and have access/opportunity to a victim for their real desires.

You don't enter start your pedophile activity with the brutal and repeated raping of a kidnapped child, performed in front of your girlfriend eyewitness, toss your victim to the ground like a piece of trash when you are done and pause for a moment to wash the blood of your penis before resume your crime scene clean up. Oh yeah, while Bonnie is working the crime scene check your messages cause you will be banging some new chick from plenty o fish behind Karla, er Bonnie, er that pretty little thangs back tomorrow. He is a complete sociopath.

Other children, grooming behavior, single moms, inappropriate verbalizing of his pedophile wishes, child *advertiser censored*.... to me that was a given. But I am sure with my history and views on the topic defense would have taken its first opportunity to strike me from the juror pool as well.

The part that I couldn't put my finger on was MR had no history of sexual violence. No restraining orders. No adult partners that were afraid of him or said that he was sadistic. Based on the parade of women put on by the PROSECUTION I actually accepted the lack of testimony on the topic as evidence that he wasn't violent and didn't have that history. The prosecution paraded a dozen women in front of me to show his bad moral code and only demonstrated that he was a liar and an opportunistic manipulator. I accepted that as evidence that he was the driving force in the cover up, the detail keeper, the one that would adapt the lie to the evidence found.

The jury couldn't hear what was on the laptop because they didn't get a secondary warrant. Okay, I will trust the judge that this would be a potential appeal issue, the rules would in flux, no way to know how the case law would turn out as it was decided, the prudent thing to do was to exclude it. The state had DNA evidence putting Tori's blood mixed with MRs semen in MRs car, an eyewitness to the rape, and common sense that the naked from the waist down child was taken to MRs hand choosen getaway for sexually deviant motives.

But his sexual history was allowed in the courtroom. His partners were on the stand. Available for questioning by both sides. The jurors were already being allowed to consider his sexual appetites and moral code in fulfilling those appetites. Why in the world was the flavor of those appetites excluded? I do not get the legal reasoning for that whatsoever. And this was a HUGE missing piece of the puzzle for me. The acts TLM described, the level of violence it involved, the ability to perform to completion with an audience, no squeamish reaction to the blood, the tears, the screams... that is someone with a sadistic-violent-sexual nature. The rape victim didn't file charges, I would understand that not being allowed to be presented as a criminal past. But the others? The consent form?

Based on his comments that younger ones are easier to manipulate, that he had dated single moms and then made mental note of the floorplan and which windows led to the childrens rooms...... I hope all the women who had him around their kids, in their homes, I hope they are having them evaluated. They must be sick thinking about how close they may have been to being in Tara's shoes.

TLM is in no way lessened in guilt by this revelations, not in my eyes. She knew exactly who he was and she hand delivered someone's child literally to his lap to make this good good man she had found, to make his fantasies come true. Like ole prince charming here had done for TLM I guess. That she has the audacity to mention her own childhood molestation as the fuel, the rage she used to beat Tori to death after sacrificing her to that animal... OMG I cannot even express how mad that makes me.

And there is no way that MRs mom didn't already know about the *advertiser censored*. As part of the investigation they would have asked her who else, if anyone, had access to the computers in her home. Probably part of TLMs elaborate plot to ruin their lives.

 

[myzzy]

Good morning everyone

I logged off last night after all the evidence came out that was not allowed to be admitted, heartbreaking.

There is NO WAY MR could explain why 3 different ( please correct if wrong) hard drives had videos, images and searches related to children,rape, choking, kidnapping ect, there is none, not even schooling researching reason would be a good enough reason, no one searches for those terms who does not have a alternative motive for it. Period.

I do think our laws need to be changed, and while the judge was protecting our laws I think the judge not allowing this information or some of it to make a point to the crown for violating MR rights when they searched the electronic devices without another warrant.

I do not know how the judge in good concious did not find a way to allow something concerning this evidence into the trial. These jurors will feel betrayed if they come back with anything less then 1st degree murder.

If by chance the jury comes back with anything less, my heart will go out to them when they finally are able to see the information that we now have at hand that was not allowed. I can only imagine how they will feel, Some may not be able to take it and that is not something i would want to weigh on me for the rest of my life.

Now that this information is out I have jumped off that fence and burned it down because I no longer feel that there was not enough evidence to convict him. Without the information that was released yesterday to us there was reasonable doubt. But, had the judge allowed the crown to give me one bit of information about the young lady who reported his sexual assult, his searches, his hard drives from the pcs, his conversations about children with other women, ANYTHING, my opinion would have been swayed to say without a doubt he has reason to be there by his previous actions and that would have been enough to say without a doubt he was involved.

If something goes wrong and he gets away with this, I'm making it my mission to find that damned car seat myself.

I'm so glad to see everyone on the same page here. What happened to all the posters who were so sure MTR was innocent?

I was never sure of his innocence but I was one of the members on this bord that felt the crown was unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MR knew and was a partner of TLM who testified she swung the hammer. I was wrong and it killed me last night to have to wrestle with that.

I gave my faith into our legal system and felt that they would show us reason along with a little bit of proof. Because the judge wanted to make a point and NOT allow this information into the trial, I feel that our system let us down. Those searches, reported sexual assault, the videos MR watched, All of the evidence showing MR inner demons should have been allowed regardless its a child and that is the worst of the worst. The only one who was effected by this ruling positively was MR and that is beyond acceptable. The judge and attorneys had the evidence, the smoking gun and yet were not allowed to show ANY of it.

Unfortunately those posters that did not feel there was enough evidence were working off the same evidence the jury has! We all need to pray that they are coming to the right decisions, even though not privy to these latest details.

I do hope the jury see's through the lies and give him 1st degree. I do think and hope they were able to see more then we were

ITA agree and I don't think it is the time to try and single out those who were not on the same page as the majority. If someone wants to say, hey maybe i was wrong or if I had only known what is being reported now, etc. as i have already done, then that's great and I would hope it can be done in a friendly and respectful environment. JMO

I feel horrible i was wrong, I struggled all night with it and cried most of the night because of it. I like everyone else want nothing but justice for Tori first and foremost, but I struggled with the possibility that MR was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and before he knew it was right in the middle of a murder and panicked.

I knew he was guilty of at least the cover up without a doubt, but I think because of the legal system the most important bit of information proving beyond a doubt was not allowed and thats not acceptable.

With the evidence presented I believed he was duped, I couldn't understand how that could happen ... A dare, WTF a child was raped and killed over a dare.

However now I know I was wrong, so very very wrong ... like others I know to be honest reasonable people who also believed there was doubt ... How could we be so wrong. I couldn't understand why no laptop, nothing the women said made him out like a predator, nothing but TLM word ... I couldn't understand why the case wasn't presented in it's whole...now I know why.

I pray that none of the jury felt the way I did a few hours ago ... I went to church, for the first time in years and prayed for them to find him guilty...prayed that RS was able to find peace.

I am completely devastated this evidence was presented ... It is a travesty.

I know how you felt and probably still feel, its a horrible feeling and will probably stay with us for quite a while but you know what, I will gladly take that burden and happily remember Tori if that is put away for his life and jail justice is taken upon MR.

I have no more understanding for MR and wish for him to live out the rest of his life in fear and taken advantage of by the other inmates for his actions. As MR said in his interview. BYE BYE BYE Count your pennies. I think i will take some pennys to the court house and lay them out so he knows they were counting and it was a mess load of pennies

 

[Sillybilly]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/05/10/tori-stafford-michael-rafferty-evidence/


The law MIGHT change? WTF?

Sure Judge ... let's toss out all the evidence of murder ... just in case some day it is no longer a felony in Canada.

 

[Sillybilly]

Thank-you, Silly Billy.

If R. v. Little was only in the process of going through the courts in July 2009, and Judge Heeney used that case to rule against the Crown, is that 100% legally irrefutable?

IMO, yes, it certainly is refutable.

This is the only summary of R. vs Little that I could find on the net right now. Can't seem to find the date (other than 2009). What's interesting is the Superior Court's ruling which is summarized as follows:

from:
http://www.canadiansecuritymag.com/Guarding/Editorial/Are-smart-phone-images-admissible.html

The Superior Court of Justice ruled that “if the police wished to examine the information stored in the Treo, they should have applied for a warrant authorizing the search of its contents. The Treo was safely in their possession. There was no urgency to search its contents, nor were there other circumstances that made it impracticable to obtain judicial authorization for the search. The police search of the contents of the Treo violated Mr. Little’s s. 8 rights.” 5

Having found that the police violated Mr. Little’s s. 8 charter rights by searches of the contents of a Treo cellphone, (and materials on his workplace desk top, and the contents of the workplace computer he used), the court then ruled on the defence motion to exclude the evidence under s. 24(2) of the charter, on the ground that its admission would bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

In deciding this motion the court considered the following:
(a) The seriousness of the charter-infringing state conduct;
(b) The Impact of the breach on the charter-protected interests of (the accused); and,
(c) Society’s interest in the adjudication of the case on its merits.

The court concluded that “[T]he seriousness of the police conduct falls at the lower end of the spectrum of misconduct. The impact of the breach on Mr. Little’s s. 8 interests was more than minimal, but not severe. The evidence is of such value to the crown’s case that the vindication of the s. 8 violation through the exclusion of the evidence would extract too great a toll on the truth-seeking goal of the trial. On balance, the admission of the photographs obtained by the s. 8 breach would not bring the administration of justice into disrepute.”

<bbm>

So, the seriousness of the crime far outweighed the minor infringement on the Section 8 Charter right of the accused.

 

[~n/t~]

IMO, yes, it certainly is refutable.

This is the only summary of R. vs Little that I could find on the net right now. Can't seem to find the date (other than 2009). What's interesting is the Superior Court's ruling which is summarized as follows:

from:
http://www.canadiansecuritymag.com/Guarding/Editorial/Are-smart-phone-images-admissible.html

<bbm>

So, the seriousness of the crime far outweighed the minor infringement on the Section 8 Charter right of the accused.

Wow thanks for that. Unfreakingbelievable!

 

[Shasta]

Thank you sillybilly! I just wrote an email to the Attorney General of Ontario and was able to utilize the valuable information you posted here. I checked the box that asked if I wanted them to reply. When they reply, I'll post it here on WS. Thanks again SB!

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I've learned alot about how you all do things up there, how you all are similar to us and how you are different.

It is so upsetting that one of the similarities is the lack of law enforcement attention on Internet child *advertiser censored* and other related Internet sex crimes that seem to be so common such as sex predators trying to find victims online.

Something must be done about this. It seems all too common for this stuff to be connected to these horrible cases we see here. In one instance I remember LE was aware of many of these guys, they just had not rounded them up and brought them in until a little girl went missing.

 

[Shasta]

I've learned alot about how you all do things up there, how you all are similar to us and how you are different.

It is so upsetting that one of the similarities is the lack of law enforcement attention on Internet child *advertiser censored* and other related Internet sex crimes that seem to be so common such as sex predators trying to find victims online.

Something must be done about this. It seems all too common for this stuff to be connected to these horrible cases we see here. In one instance I remember LE was aware of many of these guys, they just had not rounded them up and brought them in until a little girl went missing.

I love your avatar. It's very beautiful.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I love your avatar. It's very beautiful.

Oh, thank you so much for noticing! I'm just learning, but most of my little doodles are all about her! I've done a couple flowers for her, I was thinking about putting them in her garden