No Honor Among Thieves

[BBB167893]

Nobody willing to slap leather on my terms? *sigh*

 

[cami]

I've often gotten the impression that no one was more surprised than JR when PR was not brought up on charges at some point. Yes, yes, I know they hired attorneys. But again, that's just insurance. I'm thinking he really didn't rely on them being as effective as they were OR the case bungled as badly as it was (which is how I interpret it), however you wish to see it. To be a fly on the wall in that house during the subsequent years.

I think it's due to LE's not knowing which of them to charge for the murder.

 

[anne11]

What struck me about JR was that it appears he put his career before his family. His wife has ovarian cancer ok he gets her the best treatment he can find but its miles away and yet he continues to concentrate on building his business. IMO he seemed dis-associated with his second family.

 

[TinaD]

I have to agree with you Dave - I've thought this for a long time. Particularly with his handing the pad over and his comment that it looked like a woman's writing - I really think he didn't believe that the staging would fly for very long and PR was his second line of defence. Whether or not she actually did the deed, or he did, doesn't matter for this line of thinking.

 

[JMO8778]

I've considered bringing this subject up for some time now. And my recent dust-up with HOTYH about RN misspellings has convinced me that now is the appropriate time.

It's often been asked, including by me, if the Rs did commit this crime together, why would they have chosen to handwrite a ransom note? More specifically, why would JR, presumably the smart one of the two, agree to such a thing? After all, he was a good businessman, so he couldn't have been stupid, right?

(WARNING: The following contains the opinions and speculations of SuperDave, and does not necessarily reflect the feelings of anyone else.)

Well, as I say in the book, maybe he WAS being a smart businessman, leaving himself a possible out. Here's what I mean:

What if there was a Plan B? What if, as a last resort, PR would be thrown to the wolves? Everything pointed back at her, or almost everything. She had ONE thing on him, and that meant he'd have to play along. But he'd play by his rules, looking to go along with it while making sure that, if push came to shove, nothing could lead back to him. It wouldn't do to have his computer searched and a file of the RN found. But having her handwrite it would put him in the clear. He even tells her to spell differently after the killing.
Hiring separate lawyers was just extra insurance.

It's brilliant. He sets her up and looks like her champion. He gets to be her hero, standing valiantly behind her, defending his lady's honor like a damn white knight.. Meanwhile, he's got her like a lamb to slaughter. If it goes badly for her, hey, he's done all he can! If she tries to hang it on him, it looks like the desperate ravings of a lunatic trying to save her own neck.

There truly is NO honor among thieves.

A good businessman will always have an out. A Plan B, as it were. After all, he didn't owe her anything. She killed his daughter. But he couldn't let her burn right then and there, because he had his hand in the cookie jar. It's always best to shoot someone in the back AFTER you give them a chance to dig their own grave.

(Here endeth the speculation.)

Questions? Comments? Reactions? Threats? Lemon cookies?

It sure seems that way,doesn't it??I mean,IMO, Patsy was frantic out of her mind,and JR guided her,thus ensuring evidence would fly in her direction.Things like letting her and JB wear the exact same clothing (for JB,her shirt) they'd had on the night before,and yet calling the White's over.JR taking a shower,while Patsy didn't.And yes,having a written note in Patsy's handwriting in the first place,one which was on HER notepad and the same one which HE handed to LE,upon being asked for handwriting samples.Perhaps he even realized the practice page was still in there??After all,that one did address himself AND Patsy.(food for thought...)

And IMO,JR calling his grown kids to the house that morning in the first place tells me he had a plan in mind..ie-he needed them there to say what a great father he was and that he would never harm one of his kids.The icing on the cake for that was when he told JAR,(in front of Melinda's fiance at that!) that he'd found JB at 11 am,something he apparently went into detail about.(would certainly be interesting to hear the whole story!).Yes,JR was definitely getting his ducks in a row beforehand.

ETA: also recall the R's originally told LE that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck,even though she was found in the white shirt.Patsy was clearly not thinking...but JR was.An intruder would not have changed her shirt..but Patsy would have!

 

[JMO8778]

And last but not least..letting Patsy use her own items in making the garrote...like her paintbrush.And wrapping her in the blanket..something only a parent would do,(which IMO Patsy did),seeing as her arm hair was found on it.
JR knew true crime,and he had to have known these things would implicate her.

 

[Ravyn]

And I wonder if this investigation really starts pointing to JR if there will be one more note from PR saying she did kill JonBenet...With everything else I feel about JR,he would have a ace in the hole....

 

[JMO8778]

..on that note,I predict there will be damage control coming up here shortly,re: previous posts,on the forum...(just watch..).

 

[BBB167893]

It sure seems that way,doesn't it??I mean,IMO, Patsy was frantic out of her mind,and JR guided her,thus ensuring evidence would fly in her direction.Things like letting her and JB wear the exact same clothing (for JB,her shirt) they'd had on the night before,and yet calling the White's over.JR taking a shower,while Patsy didn't.And yes,having a written note in Patsy's handwriting in the first place,one which was on HER notepad and the same one which HE handed to LE,upon being asked for handwriting samples.Perhaps he even realized the practice page was still in there??After all,that one did address himself AND Patsy.(food for thought...) ETA: also recall the R's originally told LE that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck,even though she was found in the white shirt.Patsy was clearly not thinking...but JR was.An intruder would not have changed her shirt..but Patsy would have!

Now you're getting the idea.

 

[Sophie]

I have stupidly started a new thread on this and should have asked the question here. However: can anyone tell me what would be the probative/evidential/forensic value of the ejaculate of a man who had had a vasectomy?

 

[DeeDee249]

I have stupidly started a new thread on this and should have asked the question here. However: can anyone tell me what would be the probative/evidential/forensic value of the ejaculate of a man who had had a vasectomy?

Well...a vasectomy is not immediate and sometimes not completely effective. I know of 2 friends who had "vasectomy babies", in each time when a sperm count was done there were still viable sperm. The rule of thumb is to use back-up birth control for 6 months after a vasectomy, then have a sperm count before discontinuing back-up birth control. If the ejaculate has no live sperm, if paternity is in question, it does lessen the chances, but it could always be argued that at the time of conception there were still viable sperm.
As far as your question- not sure what you are asking when you say "forensic". Dead men don't ejaculate (despite what the Rolling Stones said). DNA testing can be done on ejaculate whenever it was left, so it can be sourced to a person if the person is in a database or is a known person or suspect.

 

[JMO8778]

I have stupidly started a new thread on this and should have asked the question here. However: can anyone tell me what would be the probative/evidential/forensic value of the ejaculate of a man who had had a vasectomy?

I'm sure they can still get a dna profile from it.

 

[BBB167893]

While I wait for this one to become active again, there's another element to this I just recalled.

HOTYH has often stated that there's no way the Rs would do anything to make a death sentence more likely. What he doesn't seem to remember is that, from all I can gather, PR didn't expect to live very long anyway. There were other people, on both sides, who said that PR was not likely to survive long enough for a trial to finish up.

 

[Sophie]

While I wait for this one to become active again, there's another element to this I just recalled.

HOTYH has often stated that there's no way the Rs would do anything to make a death sentence more likely. What he doesn't seem to remember is that, from all I can gather, PR didn't expect to live very long anyway. There were other people, on both sides, who said that PR was not likely to survive long enough for a trial to finish up.

True! Plus, Patsy and John make clear in DoI that they were fully attuned to the zeitgeist in Boulder (liberal, politically correct, not tough on law and order) - they had to know that they'd be as likely to get the death penalty in Boulder as I am in the EU. This knowledge also adds an interesting layer to the debate on why they played such legal hardball.

Going back to your point again, though, I think people also over-look the fact that people who trade in perfection would probably consider their lives over anyway if it were disclosed that Mr American Dream and Miss West Virginia, paragons of Christianity, toothpaste advert perfect, had harmed their child in a desperate moment.

 

[Sophie]

Ty, JMO and DeeDee.

 

[angelwngs]

While I wait for this one to become active again, there's another element to this I just recalled.

HOTYH has often stated that there's no way the Rs would do anything to make a death sentence more likely. What he doesn't seem to remember is that, from all I can gather, PR didn't expect to live very long anyway. There were other people, on both sides, who said that PR was not likely to survive long enough for a trial to finish up.

To me personally, her comment following JBR's death in which she stated that 'at least JBR would not have to endure the battle of dealing with a diagnosis of terminal cancer in her life....', (paraphrased), is evidence that not only did PR not expect to live very long, anyway, but it also screams loudly toward pointing out the narcissistic impact that the diagnosis and treatment of her cancer had upon her rational, 'motherly' state of mind.

I'm sorry to say that, in my own opinion, this one solitary comment should have spoken volumes to every rational, parent, innocent of harming their own child!

 

[Sophie]

To me personally, her comment following JBR's death in which she stated that 'at least JBR would not have to endure the battle of dealing with a diagnosis of terminal cancer in her life....', (paraphrased), is evidence that not only did PR not expect to live very long, anyway, but it also screams loudly toward pointing out the narcissistic impact that the diagnosis and treatment of her cancer had upon her rational, 'motherly' state of mind.

I'm sorry to say that, in my own opinion, this one solitary comment should have spoken volumes to every rational, parent, innocent of harming their own child!

A brilliant post and so true.

 

[angelwngs]

OMG, just remembered reading yesterday, somewhere, that following her diagnosis of cancer she was screaming to God asking Him why he even bothered to give her two beautiful children if he was going to do this to her...

Somebody...Anybody... Where did I read this? Anyone remember it??

I seem to remember that after this tirade by PR it was said, that following her treatment, she said she resolved to make 'her children' her 'life's purpose'.... :waitasec:

 

[Sophie]

OMG, just remembered reading yesterday, somewhere, that following her diagnosis of cancer she was screaming to God asking Him why he even bothered to give her two beautiful children if he was going to do this to her...

Somebody...Anybody... Where did I read this? Anyone remember it??

I seem to remember that after this tirade by PR it was said, that following her treatment, she said she resolved to make 'her children' her 'life's purpose'.... :waitasec:

Hi angelwngs (lovely name, BTW), I think that's in DoI. Will try to find quote today. You're right: in the context of what happened, that is a bit scary.

Something else that always worried me was the 'Lazarus' thing: just didn't have the patina of a genuine reaction to me. In fact, it 'sounded' rehearsed to me. OTOH, I know HOTYH etc will tell me to revisit that opinion if I ever happen to be in the Ramseys' shoes...

 

[Sophie]

Angelwings,

DoI (PB page 85):

'I stared at the ceiling, missing Burke and JonBenet so much. They didn't deserve to have a mother with cancer! Before I started to cry again, I reached for the Gidean Bible on the nightstand..opened it and pointed randomly to the first verse I came to. I looked down and read Psalm 57. 'In the shadow of Your wings I will make my refuge, /Until these calamaties have passed by.'

'I reread the passage. 'Calamaties' is right! I thought. I read the passage a third time. Now I realized that the words were telling me that the calamaties would someday pass by, be over with, gone. I couldn't believe my eyes. These lines had to be a message from God. I went to sleep knowing that my problem was in the right hands after all, the hands of my heavenly father.....

The role of God is mentioned many times on successive pages, then on p88:

'One morning I was feeling extremely depressed. I knew I was staring death in the face. I wanted to be mad at somebody for doing this to do me, and the only one I could think of was God. I saw my children, my babies who were only three and six at this time, as a gift from God. What an ugly trick to give me this wonderful gift, only to let me die a few years later and leave them without a mother. I felt betrayed and told God so...'



Not entirely apposite but she makes an interesting statement just before this:

'He (John) was going to carefully manage every aspect of my disease in the same way he directed Access Graphics.'