Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #20

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Look, I've never believed that he did push anyone off a bridge. My point was that the witness who testified to this made it appear that Joran was something of a hero, imho. I don't approve of people being pushed off bridges, either. However, the way this guy described things, there was an adult with some problems who confronted three minors and tried to start a fight with one. In my view, he was the bad guy in this scenario.

i didnt mean to suggest that you like the idea of tossing people over bridges :crazy: just that jvds probably has some good qualities...we all do, however he could still be a murderer, etc. and dont like the idea of anyones civil liberties being violated either, really i dont. even if jvds was framed the simple fact that he has taken every opportunity to cause them to suffer either for fun or to get paid - i think at that point my concern for his personal rights went out the window. and maybe that sounds wrong - but that is where im at with it... :/
 
Hi GetSmart!

When I was 18 the only card games I knew were Rummy and Pinochle- no bets! Of course I didn't grow up on the Isle of Los Vegas, and that's the difference for Joran. I do read sites where it is suggested college aged students are a large part of the poker community, they are the baby boomers of the online generation and prefer lifestyles where Farmville and Facebook is part of their dailies.

Joran didn't strike me as someone wanting to put in a long day for a little pay, and the cafe wasn't a big moneymaker unless there was a side perk that went along with it, he supposedly made 20,000 Euros annually. that wouldn't be enough to feed a gambling addiction if you are on the losing side.
Instant gratification carries a high premium and the "quickness" of the lifestyle makes one wonder how anyone learns from mistakes when rushing off to the next scheme, or develops patience when one thing takes longer than anticipated to make a "mark on the world".

Just musing...


I was taught how to play poker at 6-7 years old, complete with betting (pennies & nickles). I see nothing wrong with that. I was never much of a gambler. I won about $600.00 when I was about 18 in Atlantic City...I have not been back inside a casino since;) I prefer a friendly game with friends.

I've taught my own son how to play as well as bet when he was 8. I believe education goes a long way to curbing compulsive gambling.
 
No, I have no connection to Joran or his family. I've never met or communicated with any of them.

I can only speak for myself, but I came to believe in Joran's innocence in the Holloway case by analysis of the evidence. Joran's testimony actually doesn't play much of a role in my thinking at all. I have stated my belief that he is a habitual liar. However, I think his chronic lying really went into overdrive a few years ago, when he first realized he could profit from giving sensationalist accounts of what happened to Natalee.

Was he a nice guy for doing that? Of course not. Did he display little or no empathy for Natalee and her family as he told his stories? Absolutely. You won't find me condoning his behavior. However, like the Aruban authorities, I recognized immediately that each of his stories was a wild yarn, told only for the purpose of getting paid. I think the reason he could confidently tell these tales-two of which were terribly self-incriminating-is because he knows that he didn't cause Natalee to disappear, and has nothing to fear even if he gives them yet another location for her body.

I am not here to say that Joran is a nice guy, an upstanding citizen or even that he's mentally balanced at this point. I really don't know that he is, although I wouldn't perform an amateur psychoanalysis on him, like all the unprofessional "experts" feel comfortable in doing on t.v. He clearly has at least a powerful gambling addiction, and a lack of principles where money is concerned. How far would he go for money? I don't really know, but I don't think there is any evidence that someone would have paid him to kill either Natalee or Stephany.

Looking at the whole picture, and factoring the Natalee Holloway case into it, I find the entire sequence of events in Peru to be suspicious. I've explained the various points of contention in several posts here. Ultimately, I don't think Joran will live to stand trial. If he does go to trial, there is no question that he will be convicted. Thus, for those of us who don't believe he is a murderer, we can only try to make our points in public- on forums like this, and hopefully eventually in a book.

Could I be wrong about Joran? Sure. It would really disappoint me to find out he's actually guilty of murder, because I've devoted a lot of time and effort into researching the Holloway case, and to defending him on that and against the charges in Peru, on this and other forums. No one likes to admit they're wrong, when they've expended such energy defending a view they're completely confident in- as I am about this.

I have no vested interest in Joran being innocent, except perhaps that his guilt would necessarily change the entire tone of my book (which I might very well abandon in that case, out of disillusionment). I care strongly about civil liberties, and can't stand to think that someone is being unjustly accused, and then unjustly punished, for something they didn't do.


I must not have seen all the evidence in The Holloway case that you have because I believe he is guilty. Maybe it's because his stories have changed so much. I have a brother that is a liar but you know what when he is in trouble and it would be in his best interest to not tell the truth, he does....such as Did you steal your brother's credit cards...yes, hold on let me go get them for you. I just can not imagine an innocent person going around confessing to murder even for money. I would think no one would want to be suspected in a murder let alone help people think you are a murderer. Joran's behavior screams...Yea I did it, people are covering for me, I'm not scared of going to jail, so I will brag to the world that I killed Natalee and got away with it. I could be wrong, you never know. But I would think the odds of one person being involved in a conspriacry theory isn't that great but to be involved in two in a short 5 years is even less likely.
 
No, I have no connection to Joran or his family. I've never met or communicated with any of them.

I can only speak for myself, but I came to believe in Joran's innocence in the Holloway case by analysis of the evidence. Joran's testimony actually doesn't play much of a role in my thinking at all. I have stated my belief that he is a habitual liar. However, I think his chronic lying really went into overdrive a few years ago, when he first realized he could profit from giving sensationalist accounts of what happened to Natalee.

Was he a nice guy for doing that? Of course not. Did he display little or no empathy for Natalee and her family as he told his stories? Absolutely. You won't find me condoning his behavior. However, like the Aruban authorities, I recognized immediately that each of his stories was a wild yarn, told only for the purpose of getting paid. I think the reason he could confidently tell these tales-two of which were terribly self-incriminating-is because he knows that he didn't cause Natalee to disappear, and has nothing to fear even if he gives them yet another location for her body.

I am not here to say that Joran is a nice guy, an upstanding citizen or even that he's mentally balanced at this point. I really don't know that he is, although I wouldn't perform an amateur psychoanalysis on him, like all the unprofessional "experts" feel comfortable in doing on t.v. He clearly has at least a powerful gambling addiction, and a lack of principles where money is concerned. How far would he go for money? I don't really know, but I don't think there is any evidence that someone would have paid him to kill either Natalee or Stephany.

Looking at the whole picture, and factoring the Natalee Holloway case into it, I find the entire sequence of events in Peru to be suspicious. I've explained the various points of contention in several posts here. Ultimately, I don't think Joran will live to stand trial. If he does go to trial, there is no question that he will be convicted. Thus, for those of us who don't believe he is a murderer, we can only try to make our points in public- on forums like this, and hopefully eventually in a book.

Could I be wrong about Joran? Sure. It would really disappoint me to find out he's actually guilty of murder, because I've devoted a lot of time and effort into researching the Holloway case, and to defending him on that and against the charges in Peru, on this and other forums. No one likes to admit they're wrong, when they've expended such energy defending a view they're completely confident in- as I am about this.

I have no vested interest in Joran being innocent, except perhaps that his guilt would necessarily change the entire tone of my book (which I might very well abandon in that case, out of disillusionment). I care strongly about civil liberties, and can't stand to think that someone is being unjustly accused, and then unjustly punished, for something they didn't do.

My boldings

Are you saying you had access to all of the Aruban police files?

If you analyze the evidence then dismiss any evidence because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions about Joran then it's not being analytical at all.

Every Aruban authority has stated many times that Joran is without question involved in Natalee's disappearance, they didn't say that every story was a wild yarn. Hans Mos and others believe things he has said to be close to the truth but they lacked enough evidence to take it to trial and convict him. The new OM has also recently come out and said he has no doubt that Joran is 100% involved.

He will probably be convicted in Peru because of the overwhelming evidence against him.
 
I must not have seen all the evidence in The Holloway case that you have because I believe he is guilty. Maybe it's because his stories have changed so much. I have a brother that is a liar but you know what when he is in trouble and it would be in his best interest to not tell the truth, he does....such as Did you steal your brother's credit cards...yes, hold on let me go get them for you. I just can not imagine an innocent person going around confessing to murder even for money. I would think no one would want to be suspected in a murder let alone help people think you are a murderer. Joran's behavior screams...Yea I did it, people are covering for me, I'm not scared of going to jail, so I will brag to the world that I killed Natalee and got away with it. I could be wrong, you never know. But I would think the odds of one person being involved in a conspriacry theory isn't that great but to be involved in two in a short 5 years is even less likely.

lets say for a moment that he isnt involved in nh's case. is he then just some weirdo like john mark karr in the jbr case? someone so desperate for attention that he inserted himself into the case? someone so sadistic that he really enjoys bringing sadness and emotional devastation to the family just to have a sense of power? what could his reasoning be for getting directly involved to the extent that he has? what could the officials in aruba have for covering up nh disappearance? why would anyone really have a need to frame him? i just for the life of me cant think of any reason to frame him? if anyone would have such a need to shut him up by getting him locked up in a peruvian prison, why wouldnt they just have him "neutralized"? that would be way easier to do and cover up than this mess that we have with sf. and if you say maybe the whole thing is to punish him for nh...if "they" felt that strongly about the injustice done to nh - how/why in the world would they do that to another innocent girl?
 
The problem with Joran's varying accounts is that people pick and choose which parts of them to believe. If he really is a habitual liar, then nothing he has said about the Holloway case can be relied upon as being true. Still, this doesn't stop those who desperately want him punished from selecting the parts that suit their needs.

Analyzing the stories Joran told for money is fruitless. Most people accept the "he threw her body in the ocean" story because it's the one Beth has long promoted.

Isn't that what you are doing picking and choosing which parts of his lies you think are the truth? If someone confesses to murder so that they can make money, Why wouldn't people think that person is a killer? When writting a book, shouldn't you really look at both sides? I have never written a book so I don't know but so far your book seems to consist of....everything seems to come down too Joran is a liar. The media is unfair to Joran, they protray him as a killer. Which may be true but both are Joran's doing. He has lied to the media about killing Natalee, changes his story for new paychecks. The media has the image of Joran that he wanted them to have. JMO
 

It says in this report that her credit cards were found in the room. But, I thought I had read some time ago that he had tried to use her credit cards. Of course, that could have been one of the poor translations of 'her' for 'his', as we've seen so frequently in this robotic translations.
 
I was taught how to play poker at 6-7 years old, complete with betting (pennies & nickles). I see nothing wrong with that. I was never much of a gambler. I won about $600.00 when I was about 18 in Atlantic City...I have not been back inside a casino since;) I prefer a friendly game with friends.

I've taught my own son how to play as well as bet when he was 8. I believe education goes a long way to curbing compulsive gambling.


I believe if you have an addictive personality, all the education in the world won't curb compulsive gambling. Not that I think anything is wrong with you teaching your son.
 
My boldings

Are you saying you had access to all of the Aruban police files?

If you analyze the evidence then dismiss any evidence because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions about Joran then it's not being analytical at all.

Every Aruban authority has stated many times that Joran is without question involved in Natalee's disappearance, they didn't say that every story was a wild yarn. Hans Mos and others believe things he has said to be close to the truth but they lacked enough evidence to take it to trial and convict him. The new OM has also recently come out and said he has no doubt that Joran is 100% involved.

He will probably be convicted in Peru because of the overwhelming evidence against him.

What is the amount of the reward in Natalee's case? Why wouldn't JVS be willing to throw whomever was "really" involved under the bus for this? He is cold enough to extort NH's family re: the death and body of their loved one. Oh, that's right, he doesn't like to "work" at anything... He was cold enough to implicate his father---if the stories are true. If so, maybe his father's cronies said that was enough BS and decided to throw him under the bus and they were driving it. Could you imagine, your father covering up a murder you did and then you maybe trying to extort the father, and the father's buddies knew it?

This maintainer of low brain mentality and sensitivity is indeed one for the book of study in psychiatry and neuromicrobiology.

I indeed don't know how BH kept from ripping his face off. And in re: to him getting off in SF's case and doing the same thing to her family. JMO...but if he doesn't want his head found on a stick somewhere, or laying in the middle of a highway, I'd say he better cut his losses up-to-date and keep his mouth shut and humble his A$$. Apparently something no one could wrap their brain around to get it through his.

He's not only evil, but very stupid. IMO

I truly hope he maintains his "wiggles" endearment in CC and LuriG. His cohorts will love the opportunities to keep his image "up". LOL
 
lets say for a moment that he isnt involved in nh's case. is he then just some weirdo like john mark carr in the jbr case? someone so desperate for attention that he inserted himself into the case? someone so sadistic that he really enjoys bringing sadness and emotional devastation to the family just to have a sense of power? what could his reasoning be for getting directly involved to the extent that he has? what could the officials in aruba have for covering up nh disappearance? why would anyone really have a need to frame him? i just for the life of me cant think of any reason to frame him? if anyone would have such a need to shut him up by getting him locked up in a peruvian prison, why wouldnt they just have him "neutralized"? that would be way easier to do and cover up than this mess that we have with sf. and if you say maybe the whole thing is to punish him for nh...if "they" felt that strongly about the injustice done to nh - how/why in the world would they do that to another innocent girl?

Not only that, but why would anyone want to frame him in NH's case? Did he do a dirty deed earlier that noone "really knows anything about" and didn't make it to the "known world"? Why frame a 16/17 yr old kid? Really.
 
Not only that, but why would anyone want to frame him in NH's case? Did he do a dirty deed earlier that noone "really knows anything about" and didn't make it to the "known world"? Why frame a 16/17 yr old kid? Really.

yeah, the only thing i could dream up is that someone in aruban politics had it out for paulus... but there again the question that has to be asked is: why wouldnt they just get rid of paulus? setting up a murder of an innocent tourist and subsequent implication of an innocent boy would be way way too complicated just to embarrass a judge in training. in my opinion. i understand why aruba wanted this to stay on the down low because of their tourist trade economy....but thats it...why would they cause the very problem that they want to go away? no sense, it makes no sense.
 
It says in this report that her credit cards were found in the room. But, I thought I had read some time ago that he had tried to use her credit cards. Of course, that could have been one of the poor translations of 'her' for 'his', as we've seen so frequently in this robotic translations.

Maybe it was her debit/bank card he had? The ATM episode in the taxi? I can't imagine him leaving his credit cards behind. But it could be just bad info again too.
 
fellow ws please google wikipedia for "internet troll"
after reading it,all your questions will be answered.

Ta-dah!!! Didn't know they had a name for it....but that's exactly what I've been thinking all along. You are very astute, my fellow sleuther!!!

Seems if everyone would stop responding, the trolling would stop also!! Certainly worth a try!!
 
yeah, the only thing i could dream up is that someone in aruban politics had it out for paulus... but there again the question that has to be asked is: why wouldnt they just get rid of paulus? setting up a murder of an innocent tourist and subsequent implication of an innocent boy would be way way too complicated just to embarrass a judge in training. in my opinion. i understand why aruba wanted this to stay on the down low because of their tourist trade economy....but thats it...why would they cause the very problem that they want to go away? no sense, it makes no sense.

I think what is being insinuated is that it is Beth Holloway that set Joran up and is framing him.
 
Isn't that what you are doing picking and choosing which parts of his lies you think are the truth? If someone confesses to murder so that they can make money, Why wouldn't people think that person is a killer? When writting a book, shouldn't you really look at both sides? I have never written a book so I don't know but so far your book seems to consist of....everything seems to come down too Joran is a liar. The media is unfair to Joran, they protray him as a killer. Which may be true but both are Joran's doing. He has lied to the media about killing Natalee, changes his story for new paychecks. The media has the image of Joran that he wanted them to have. JMO

Let me clarify this- I didn't rely on any of Joran's testimony in arriving at my conclusions about the Holloway case. I don't pick and choose what to believe in terms of all he has said- I really think his stories are almost worthless at this point, due to all the varying accounts. I understand that's one of the main reasons people so strongly believe him to be guilty; after all, why else would he be lying?

I really can't go into all of this, because it's fairly complex and, I hate to mention it again, but I do have to save some things for the book, if it ever comes out. However, I will say that I don't even necessarily accept Joran's own testimony that he went to the beach with Natalee. I strongly suspect that he was not the last person to be with Natalee that night. Whether he even realizes that, or ever did, or is now capable of telling the truth, I can't honestly say.

I didn't arrive at the conclusion that Joran wasn't responsible for Natalee's disappearance through anything he ever said, but through other evidence.
 
I have posted a thread earlier from a poker site. I won't quote it because it will get edited, but...on the poker thread there is a question whether or not Joran and Stephany were "colluding". You can look up collusion in the poker dictionary- just search for poker terms and it will come up.

this is not to support that theory just to add a possible reason why the handshake is weird. Not my theory- but it is out there in the poker world.
S


I don't think they were cheating. My thing is, if they were, Joran would have already told the police about this as the reason he had to kill her. If they were cheating it's much less of a crime than murder and he would have used this information to his advantage in some way.
 
Let me clarify this- I didn't rely on any of Joran's testimony in arriving at my conclusions about the Holloway case. I don't pick and choose what to believe in terms of all he has said- I really think his stories are almost worthless at this point, due to all the varying accounts. I understand that's one of the main reasons people so strongly believe him to be guilty; after all, why else would he be lying?

I really can't go into all of this, because it's fairly complex and, I hate to mention it again, but I do have to save some things for the book, if it ever comes out. However, I will say that I don't even necessarily accept Joran's own testimony that he went to the beach with Natalee. I strongly suspect that he was not the last person to be with Natalee that night. Whether he even realizes that, or ever did, or is now capable of telling the truth, I can't honestly say.

I didn't arrive at the conclusion that Joran wasn't responsible for Natalee's disappearance through anything he ever said, but through other evidence.

I asked this earlier, do you have access to the police files? If not then your book is mere speculations and rumour mongering.

I did see a previous post about the immigration document purporting that Beth arrived earler than she declared. That document was a fake and both Hans Mos and Dompig confirmed it as such and confirmed that Beth arrived when she said she did. Neiither of them would have any reason to cover for her.

Edited to include; To be be more specific, the fake immigration document was obtained by the Daniel Young and Kelly Castilo duo, the psychics who claimed that Natalee came to him in a dream and told him Joran was innocent and has been telling outrageous stories about Natalee, he showed it to Alberto Groeneveldt who then changed his declaration.
 
I think what is being insinuated is that it is Beth Holloway that set Joran up and is framing him.

yes, i see that, but for some of this to work, this "framing" would have had to have started prior to nh going missing... moo :)
 
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