Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #20

[annalia]

I don't think they were cheating. My thing is, if they were, Joran would have already told the police about this as the reason he had to kill her. If they were cheating it's much less of a crime than murder and he would have used this information to his advantage in some way.

I watched the video several times and it just doesn't look to me like she handed him anything. If you watch his body language it looks like he just saw her and immediately extended his hand to her and she barely grasps it. I think if they were cheating he would have been more discreet in shaking her hand. Just my observation from watching the video.

 

[Cottages]

it has crossed my mind many times that i think that jvds would have attempted to do this same sick process with sf family if he could have just gotten her body out of the hotel room. its obvious that her family loved her very much and is financially wealthy... the perfect combo for jvds. im not suggesting that that was his motive - as i dont think it was the motive for nh either. but for him just an added perk

I'm with ya. I too believe that if JVS could have gotten Stephany's body out of the hotel room, he would have used her death as "income" too (paid media interviews, extortion).

 

[hollyblue]

1. Why hasn't any reporter ask Anita about the extortion plot.....and

2. I bet she wishes she had all the money they had spent on his gambling allowance and "business ventures" right now.

3. I'm beginning to believe Anita was prolly put in the position of being the bad parent---wanting disipline for JVS and Paulus undermining her. Maybe Paulus had things going on and JVS knew it. They covered for each other. If this would have any truth in it, then why did she put up with it? Money? Position? Dsyfuntional?

 

[marikesh]

Yes, I agree that the term "bum" is inappropriate. I've always heard the tale described that way ("Joran threw a bum off a bridge"), but I shouldn't have used it.

I don't agree that this story makes Joran out to be a bully. Depending on how high the bridge was, perhaps a very excessive physical outburst, but the witness (who I don't believe was trying to make Joran look good) describes a situation that, imho, makes the guy the aggressor and Joran someone who was defending a friend.

Not that one story alone, of course not. There were many more when given the chance, gave good insights of what Joran was like in school. Of course, the stories came from those people "that Anita and Paulus didn't lose any sleep over", namely Arubans who were pushed around by some of the elitists.

In prior posts you mentioned all the "co-incidences" in the case on Stepheny and Natalee. I wonder about one specific co-incidence, and that is, out of Joran's mouth came the words that Natalee told him she was a lesbian, and Stepheny was a noted lesbian (please don't take this as derogatory against the girls, it is not meant to be), just made me wonder that if Natalee really told him that, it may have been to guard herself against his advances. Did Stepheny tell him she was and did he blow over that?

 

[cat thief]

Isn't that what you are doing picking and choosing which parts of his lies you think are the truth? If someone confesses to murder so that they can make money, Why wouldn't people think that person is a killer? When writting a book, shouldn't you really look at both sides? I have never written a book so I don't know but so far your book seems to consist of....everything seems to come down too Joran is a liar. The media is unfair to Joran, they protray him as a killer. Which may be true but both are Joran's doing. He has lied to the media about killing Natalee, changes his story for new paychecks. The media has the image of Joran that he wanted them to have. JMO

The thing about this book is, Joran would have to be framed for this murder in Peru for this book to even come out. raying:

If Joran is guilty of murdering Stephany Flores. There is no book.:rage:

 

[marikesh]

snipped

Tilburg

Van der Sloot (53) got his legal education at the University of Tilburg in the seventies. He co-founded the Legal Faculty Association Tilburg and also the faculty newspaper ‘Nondejure'. After he finished his studies he did not went to work for the government, but assisted citizens that had conflicts with the government. It was in that period in Arnhem, where he met a woman Anita (teacher of Artistic Formation) and it was also there were Joran and Valentijn, two of his three suns, were born.

New job

In 1991 Paul van der Sloot thought it was the time for a new job and he found one in Aruba where he was appointed for five year as a lawyer for the Aruban government. The ministers there were not impressed with his stance „I always first try to find a compromise. By simply prosecuting nobody gets wiser. If the authorities do something wrong I will always admit that. You must never interpret the facts differently then what they are. I am convinced that on the long run this will give better results“, According to Van der Sloot in an interview ten years ago in the Brabants Dagblad.



http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/paul_van_der_sl_1.html

BBM
Well yes, it really appears that is just what the Justice department in Aruba does, and we have all seen how well that works.
There had to have been a lot of compromising on Joran's case, and look what he has done now and where he is.

 

[suzihawk]

And if her body isn't retrievable because she was disposed off at sea he better come up with some other concrete evidence because they won't believe it's true, based on all his lies in the past. This situation is 100% his own making and the people who thought they were doing him a favor by protecting him will have to find a way to live with themselves.

Oh, the irony! If he (they?) did toss Natalee's body into the ocean (as I believe), the 'no body, no crime' mantra that has served him so well in the past has him painted into a very nasty corner now, eh?

<snipped>

if anyone would have such a need to shut him up by getting him locked up in a peruvian prison, why wouldnt they just have him "neutralized"? that would be way easier to do and cover up than this mess that we have with sf.

Exactly, NN. A relatively swift and cheap way to end the 'problem' as opposed to an enormously complex and hugely expensive conspiracy involving perhaps thousands of people in several countries to do away with him. I doubt anyone would be surprised or question finding him at the wrong end of foul play after all his misdeeds.

And why would whoever it is that is so fearful of whatever the big secret that JVS might expose be willing to once again shine the world's spotlight on him?! Wouldn't that be counter productive if they're afraid he might spill his guts?

Let me clarify this- I didn't rely on any of Joran's testimony in arriving at my conclusions about the Holloway case. I don't pick and choose what to believe in terms of all he has said- I really think his stories are almost worthless at this point, due to all the varying accounts. I understand that's one of the main reasons people so strongly believe him to be guilty; after all, why else would he be lying?

I really can't go into all of this, because it's fairly complex and, I hate to mention it again, but I do have to save some things for the book, if it ever comes out. However, I will say that I don't even necessarily accept Joran's own testimony that he went to the beach with Natalee. I strongly suspect that he was not the last person to be with Natalee that night. Whether he even realizes that, or ever did, or is now capable of telling the truth, I can't honestly say.

I didn't arrive at the conclusion that Joran wasn't responsible for Natalee's disappearance through anything he ever said, but through other evidence.

And that is the *main* reason that it's fruitless to continue debating this subject with you. Aside from the fact that your entire conspiracy theory is preposterous, that is. IMO, of course.

 

[hollyblue]

The thing about this book is, Joran would have to be framed for this murder in Peru for this book to even come out. raying:

If Joran is guilty of murdering Stephany Flores. There is no book.:rage:

Something is wrong here :abnormal:

Respectively snipped from Unreals:

Could I be wrong about Joran? Sure. It would really disappoint me to find out he's actually guilty of murder, because I've devoted a lot of time and effort into researching the Holloway case, and to defending him on that and against the charges in Peru, on this and other forums. No one likes to admit they're wrong, when they've expended such energy defending a view they're completely confident in- as I am about this.

I have no vested interest in Joran being innocent, except perhaps that his guilt would necessarily change the entire tone of my book (which I might very well abandon in that case, out of disillusionment). I care strongly about civil liberties, and can't stand to think that someone is being unjustly accused, and then unjustly punished, for something they didn't do.

 

[marikesh]

I'm sure any defendant would fear having you as a jury member. Surely you believe we all have rights, correct?

Are you coming out in support of vigilante justice?

We all have rights, that is correct. Stepheny had a right to live! Doesn't that bother you one bit? Beth has a right to know where Natalee is.
After seeing that Joran is a hero in your eyes, and others at another place think Joran innocent despite the rock solid evidence, I have come to a conclusion that should I ever be faced going to court, I will never request a 'jury', ever.

I suppose if Joran appears in front of the Judge, with a bible under his arm and his hands clasped in prayers, we will be hearing he is a changed man and has repented?

 

[suzihawk]

I don't think Stephany's mom will attend the trial. She has taken this loss of her only daughter so badly. I am very interested in how she is and hope that she finds strength after losing her precious Stephany.

I totally agree, Philly. The few photos and tapes I've seen of Stephany's mother are excruciatingly heartbreaking. Having had first hand experience with people experiencing devasting loss, it's not unusual for it to suck the very life and soul out of them leaving them totally incapacitated.

On the flip side, there a few warriors that use their adrenalin and fury to fiercy seek out justice for their loved ones, such as Beth.

God grant both of these families the strength to endure however they're able.

 

[Kamille]

The problem with Joran's varying accounts is that people pick and choose which parts of them to believe. If he really is a habitual liar, then nothing he has said about the Holloway case can be relied upon as being true. Still, this doesn't stop those who desperately want him punished from selecting the parts that suit their needs.

Analyzing the stories Joran told for money is fruitless. Most people accept the "he threw her body in the ocean" story because it's the one Beth has long promoted.

I will admit that I did not follow the NH story and everything I've discovered about it, was from following this board regarding SF so correct me if I'm mistaken.

I was under the impression that the "confession" that was extracted from Joran in the car ride was an undercover sting set up by a news reporter out of the Netherlands. Joran was not aware that this conversation with someone he considered to be a friend was being recorded. He was not paid for this story, he was talking and bragging to a friend about what happened while smoking a joint during a car ride.

I think that is why BH chose to believe this story had more of a chance of having some level of truth in it over all the others.

 

[marikesh]

It amazes me that people find a way to make Joran look deranged, no matter what the situation. How old was Joran when this event supposedly took place? 16? 15? Satish would not have been much older, and still probably a minor. So, we have here an adult with some kind of issues, who approaches three minors and tries to pick a fight with one. Joran defends his friend and "throws him" off a bridge, whatever that really meant. We don't know how high the bridge was, and I'm guessing it was low enough so that this guy wasn't even injured by landing in the water.

In American law, at least, no minor would be charged for assault in such a situation. An adult attempted to initiate a fight with his fellow underaged friend, and he defended him. Of course, I'm assuming for hypothetical argument's sake that this incident ever happened. I have strong doubts that it did. However, my only point was that the witness who testified to it was clearly trying to report something that he felt would make Joran look bad, but his own words really paint Joran out in a pretty positive light.

As for Joran's stories, who knows? Joran is obviously motivated by money, and each time he gave varying accounts of what happened to Natalee, he was paid to do so. He was a 17 year old kid who was accused of a crime he knew he didn't commit, and I'm sure he (and his family) couldn't help but be affected by the way he was targeted exclusively by Beth and company. I don't think he was trying to be insensitive towards Natalee, but if you believe, as I do, that Joran had nothing to do with her disappearance, you should be able to understand why he developed the attitude he did towards her mother, who loathed him and spared no opportunity to bash him and his father on American television.

As attorney Les Levine described it on JVM's show last week, there is a real lynch mob mentality in both America and Peru towards Joran. He has been so thoroughly demonized by the media, that there is no way he could ever receive a fair trial in either country.

He was the initial cause of his demonization by media. In Aruba the trial if there ever was one, would be fair to some who aided and abetted him, because we know he would not be incarcerated according to their laws as tourism means more than the lives of a few tourists. As far as America and Peru, it wouldn't be the general public, rather the law courts and he will get what he deserves by their standards. He should have thought about that before he committed the crime.
As you say about Beth, I can say about Anita. She had her internet friends gather smut for Renee Gielen's documentary. Remember the one which had Natalee pregnant by a relatives child and therefore running away, showed a photoshopped arrival time for Beth (another lie amongst many), and all internet rumor that was applauded. Anita didn't stop her; in fact Renee was digging around for buyers wherever she could and there were no takers for the smut.
Joran could have stopped it all by telling the truth. Bottom line. I guess Renee lost out of pocket as there were many who figured out how to see that "special" for free.

 

[selena]

Thanks for the link and info, I must have missed that page. Sure would like to hear what he had to say and what time he was there. I'll check again, but it seems he is quite stocky for the man in green. He looked more the size of EG. EG sure is a mystery man....in my book anyway. He didn't want his face shown in any media it looked like. Maybe his wife didn't know he was at the casinos? When I first saw the video of him getting into the cab, I thought it was Mr. Flores.

Hi,
Elton Garcia is a professional poker player from Uruguay ( naturalized citizen ) of Albanian descent- not sure how that works, really, but this is what's reported. There was a tournament in Uruguay earlier ( few months back ) for the LAPT and the one scheduled for Chile in March was canceled ( there was an earthquake but there are other reasons cited for the cancellation ). so he picked up on this leg of the tour.

He was a player ( what I read on the poker boards ) at Tilt, which I am supposing to be Full tilt Poker and so was Joran.

There is another site that advertised the LAPT that I was following where the players exchanged info about being in Lima and wanting to meet other members. This is how I believe Joran came to " meet" Mr Garcia in the first place- as Joran met him some 8 days earlier ( prior to May 30th ) and not all of the players arrived at the same time or used the same hotels.

Lima accommodations were posted on the site and not everyone wanted to stay at the host hotel, the Atlantic City- but they did meet there on the 27th before any of the tournament gaming started.

There are conflicting reports about whether or not Garcia and JVDS were overheard by another visitor at the hotel ( lounge singer, R Blades ) and discussing picking up women, I don't know if it's relevant to the " married" angle but I put it out there for what it's worth- maybe nothing- anyway I don't think Garcia was married.

He was out of play after the 26th hand, but had to stay in Peru because of the murder and I think his reaction to the cameras are due to being known as a poker player and not one who associated with a potential murderer.

Selena

 

[selena]

Oh....let me correct that I am not positive about EG playing on tilt, there are pics of him on Poker Flip, and I kind of ran that thought together quickly. Joran was registered on several sites and I think tilt may be where he met EG. Not verified yet.

 

[suzihawk]

1. Why hasn't any reporter ask Anita about the extortion plot.....and

2. I bet she wishes she had all the money they had spent on his gambling allowance and "business ventures" right now.

3. I'm beginning to believe Anita was prolly put in the position of being the bad parent---wanting disipline for JVS and Paulus undermining her. Maybe Paulus had things going on and JVS knew it. They covered for each other. If this would have any truth in it, then why did she put up with it? Money? Position? Dsyfuntional?

I believe that Anita was every bit as knowledgeable and involved as Paulus in everything that was going on. I think she wore the pants in the family, sotaspeak, and dictacted exactly how things were to be handled. JMO

 

[selena]

I believe that Anita was every bit as knowledgeable and involved as Paulus in everything that was going on. I think she wore the pants in the family, sotaspeak, and dictacted exactly how things were to be handled. JMO

Anita was on the faculty at the school Joran attended. This may not be the reason she was involved in procuring a good image for him despite what reports show, but it may be a factor. Being the mother of a student at a school gives you the opportunity to quash some unacceptable behaviors as well as being accountable for them, imo.


If she had a good rapport with her peers she would have been encouraged to address problems within the school setting under the guise and direction of other people who would consider her reputation. I think there was a vested interest on the parts of both parents to protect Jorans reputation as they were also protecting their own.
IMO

 

[Kamille]

Hi,
Elton Garcia is a professional poker player from Uruguay ( naturalized citizen ) of Albanian descent- not sure how that works, really, but this is what's reported. There was a tournament in Uruguay earlier ( few months back ) for the LAPT and the one scheduled for Chile in March was canceled ( there was an earthquake but there are other reasons cited for the cancellation ). so he picked up on this leg of the tour.

He was a player ( what I read on the poker boards ) at Tilt, which I am supposing to be Full tilt Poker and so was Joran.

There is another site that advertised the LAPT that I was following where the players exchanged info about being in Lima and wanting to meet other members. This is how I believe Joran came to " meet" Mr Garcia in the first place- as Joran met him some 8 days earlier ( prior to May 30th ) and not all of the players arrived at the same time or used the same hotels.

Lima accommodations were posted on the site and not everyone wanted to stay at the host hotel, the Atlantic City- but they did meet there on the 27th before any of the tournament gaming started.

There are conflicting reports about whether or not Garcia and JVDS were overheard by another visitor at the hotel ( lounge singer, R Blades ) and discussing picking up women, I don't know if it's relevant to the " married" angle but I put it out there for what it's worth- maybe nothing- anyway I don't think Garcia was married.

He was out of play after the 26th hand, but had to stay in Peru because of the murder and I think his reaction to the cameras are due to being known as a poker player and not one who associated with a potential murderer.

Selena

EG was being listed in the press as a "friend" of JVS. Considering the mood surrounding JVS at that time, it doesn't surprise me in the least that he would not have wanted to be photographed or interviewed in the press and would have ducked them at any opportunity. He supposedly barely knew the guy and found himself smack dab in the middle of a murder investigation. I'm sure he was shellshocked by the whole thing and wishes he'd never met Joran.

I would be more suspicious of him if he had courted the press and given interviews and posed for pictures telling everyone what a great guy he thought Joran was.

MOO

 

[suzihawk]

Birmingham, Al (WIAT) Joran van der Sloot is running out of legal challenges as he fights a murder charge in Peru, an extortion charge here in Alabama and faces years in a deadly Peruvian prison.

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/Joran-van-der-Sloot-Latest/0R38cPS4oUWRKqZzvW9FQA.cspx

 

[Labadorable]

Barbie Latza Nadeau, Daily Beast - article.
Will Natalee's Father Find Her?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-28/natalee-holloways-disappearance-and-search-for-her-body

ttfn

 

[selena]

EG was being listed in the press as a "friend" of JVS. Considering the mood surrounding JVS at that time, it doesn't surprise me in the least that he would not have wanted to be photographed or interviewed in the press and would have ducked them at any opportunity. He supposedly barely knew the guy and found himself smack dab in the middle of a murder investigation. I'm sure he was shellshocked by the whole thing and wishes he'd never met Joran.

I would be more suspicious of him if he had courted the press and given interviews and posed for pictures telling everyone what a great guy he thought Joran was.

MOO

His statement is here (Pdf) but it's in Spanish. I'm looking for a translated version but even so things are often not translated correctly, FWIW.