Rigor and livor mortis

[Tortoise]

She wasn't wrapped like a cocoon. The police affidavit says he found her UNDERNEATH the blanket. He couldn't have seen her the moment he opened the door , thats why he changed his story and added the carefully wrapped ,with her head and arms visible.

Hi madeleine, which police affidavit is that?

 

[madeleine]

Hi madeleine, which police affidavit is that?

I will look for it, gimme a few min

 

[madeleine]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm

John Ramsey told Det. Arndt that he had found JonBenet in the wine cellar in the basement, underneath a blanket, with her wrists tied above her head and a piece of tape covering her mouth. John Ramsey had removed the tape from her mouth before he carried JonBenet upstairs to the first floor. Detective Arndt personally told Your Affiant JonBenet's body was left inside the residence.

 

[Heymom]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm

John Ramsey told Det. Arndt that he had found JonBenet in the wine cellar in the basement, underneath a blanket, with her wrists tied above her head and a piece of tape covering her mouth. John Ramsey had removed the tape from her mouth before he carried JonBenet upstairs to the first floor. Detective Arndt personally told Your Affiant JonBenet's body was left inside the residence.

It's obvious from the photo that her wrists are *in front of* her face and not above her head.

 

[madeleine]

It's obvious from the photo that her wrists are *in front of* her face and not above her head.

JR even says in his first interview that her hands were tied BEHIND her head. His words exactly.

 

[Heymom]

JR even says in his first interview that her hands were tied BEHIND her head. His words exactly.

He is a liar, obviously. Trying to dramatize and make an intruder up out of thin air.

 

[madeleine]

Actually if you take all the interviews and search for the blanket story he always says he saw the blanket not the body. The problem is him insisting he knew he found her when he saw the blanket. Why? It's just a blanket.

He wasn/t looking for JB , he was looking for stuff left by the KIDNAPPERS, not murderers. Not her dead body.

 

[madeleine]

He says he opened the door and looked down and there was the blanket. IIRC the cops said you had to step inside in order to see it.

 

[madeleine]

Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible).

TT: When you saw the white blanket, was JonBenet completely covered up? How was she laying there, cause I wasn’t there that day.

JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.

===

JR: Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.

ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.

-------

ST: John, again, how was she positioned on the blanket, was her head to the south end of the cellar room?

JR: Ah, her head was, well the door is on the east side, and her head was going towards the inside of the cellar. So, her feet were closest to the door. I guess, and, I could draw it for you, I mean it was, trying to think of my directions.

TT: Is it OK if I have Ann sketch out how . . .

PB: If you want her to.

TT: That would be helpful for us.

END OF SIDE 1

JR: The door opens this way, (inaudible), her hand was here.

ST: And was the line of sight immediate from where you opened the door?

JR: Virtually, I mean.

ST: OK.

JR: Like it, I mean just as soon as I opened the door I saw a white blanket.

---------------------------------

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing

24 the handle because the door was latched because I

25 expected it not to be latched. I reached out,

0164

1 flipped the latch and opened the door and

2 immediately looked down.

3 LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket.

5 And I just knew that I had found her.

--------------------------------

 

[Tortoise]

The photo is confusing because the medical examiner said her face was angled to the right, but the picture shows her head facing forward, not turned to the side. The hands are lower too, showing her shoulders were not fixed with arms raised up, as she was described.

I wonder if rigor in children is slightly different, and if it may have been easily broken by moving her. This was some 7 hours after she was brought up from the basement, and around 20 hours after she died, if midnight on 25th can be used as an approximate time of death.

 

[Heymom]

Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible).

TT: When you saw the white blanket, was JonBenet completely covered up? How was she laying there, cause I wasn’t there that day.

JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.

===

JR: Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.

ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.

-------

ST: John, again, how was she positioned on the blanket, was her head to the south end of the cellar room?

JR: Ah, her head was, well the door is on the east side, and her head was going towards the inside of the cellar. So, her feet were closest to the door. I guess, and, I could draw it for you, I mean it was, trying to think of my directions.

TT: Is it OK if I have Ann sketch out how . . .

PB: If you want her to.

TT: That would be helpful for us.

END OF SIDE 1

JR: The door opens this way, (inaudible), her hand was here.

ST: And was the line of sight immediate from where you opened the door?

JR: Virtually, I mean.

ST: OK.

JR: Like it, I mean just as soon as I opened the door I saw a white blanket.

---------------------------------

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing

24 the handle because the door was latched because I

25 expected it not to be latched. I reached out,

0164

1 flipped the latch and opened the door and

2 immediately looked down.

3 LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket.

5 And I just knew that I had found her.

--------------------------------

Yeah, the way that basement was usually in a state of disarray, there is NO WAY he would have known JonBenet was under that blanket unless he knew because he put her there. Patsy depended on her housekeeper(s) to keep things neat and even they didn't do the basement as a routine. So that could have been anything, and he would not have been able to assume it was JonBenet unless he could see her, which it seems as if he could not, by his answers. But the police never pressed issues.

 

[Heymom]

The photo is confusing because the medical examiner said her face was angled to the right, but the picture shows her head facing forward, not turned to the side. The hands are lower too, showing her shoulders were not fixed with arms raised up, as she was described.

I wonder if rigor in children is slightly different, and if it may have been easily broken by moving her. This was some 7 hours after she was brought up from the basement, and around 20 hours after she died, if midnight on 25th can be used as an approximate time of death.

In the smaller photograph it does look as though her hand is above her head. I'd like to see the entire photograph or a full-length one but we only have what has been leaked.

 

[Tortoise]

In the smaller photograph it does look as though her hand is above her head. I'd like to see the entire photograph or a full-length one but we only have what has been leaked.

I've seen a photo of her hands raised above her head, and I think it must have been in the CBS documentary. I think it was on a pin-board of crime scene photos, but I can't be sure if that was where I saw it.

 

[Tortoise]

Here are some more crime scene photos that I just grabbed from the CBS documentary. I'll separate them into individual posts. The first one is of JonBenet's hands as they were photographed above her head -

 

[Tortoise]

Same picture different screenshot, just to show it's from the programme.

 

[Tortoise]

WARNING GRAPHIC


Last one, showing position on the floor and livor mortis on back, with what looks like an area of blanching where she may have laid on the garrote and it's left an impression, perhaps.

 

[Ambitioned]

:crying:

 

[Tortoise]

:crying:

I know. I didn't know whether to post it.

 

[Tortoise]

There was a discussion going on the other day in a different thread about where these new pictures were coming from (the clothing). I noticed in the documentary that Jim and Laura were able to access the autopsy photos and records in some kind of a public records centre, so I think that is probably the source.

 

[kanzz]

Thanks for posting these, Tortoise. One thing I noticed - the arms are in different positions in the two photos, the one of her on her back and the one of her in the side-lying position. The only way I can explain that is to say possibly she was not yet in full rigor at that time. After all, she had been on a concrete floor of a basement for approximately the first 12 hours. This would also explain why, due to the lividity, the ME knew that her face was toward the right (even if only slightly); and then her neck might have moved somewhat. I've only seen one photo of her full frontal face, I failed to save it, and I've not been able to find it again.