Rigor and livor mortis

[johnjay]

Linda Arndt told him to put her down at the top of the stairs. It's in her statement.

I'm pretty sure I'm remembering the CBS documentary correctly; they made a big deal of John putting her on the floor instead of the couch. Later Arndt moved the body near the Christmas tree - a very odd thing for her to do.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm pretty sure I'm remembering the CBS documentary correctly; they made a big deal of John putting her on the floor instead of the couch. Later Arndt moved the body near the Christmas tree - a very odd thing for her to do.

Another reason then for you to recognise some bias in the TV production.

 

[johnjay]

Another reason then for you to recognise some bias in the TV production.

I don't see why those folks would be biased. And compared to who? Linda Ardnt? Didn't she say that she knew John was the murderer as soon as he carried the body upstairs? Not that I don't cut Linda a lot of slack - she was traumatized by what she experienced in that house - I think a healthy person would be.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't see why those folks would be biased. And compared to who? Linda Ardnt? Didn't she say that she knew John was the murderer as soon as he carried the body upstairs? Not that I don't cut Linda a lot of slack - she was traumatized by what she experienced in that house - I think a healthy person would be.

Yeah, I think I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said mistakes.

Linda Arndt said [FONT=&quot] "I told John to place the young girl's body on the rug just inside the front doorway. John did as he was instructed."[/FONT]

I think CBS said or implied that John decided to do that.

 

[johnjay]

Yeah, I think I used the wrong word. Maybe I should have said mistakes.

Linda Arndt said [FONT=&amp] "I told John to place the young girl's body on the rug just inside the front doorway. John did as he was instructed."[/FONT]

I think CBS said or implied that John decided to do that.

So now John decided to follow Linda Arndt's instructions? If he was so intent on that why didn't he follow:

"I suggested to John Ramsey that he and Fleet White check the house from top to bottom"

 

[TeaTime]

Where are you seeing photos of the body in the house?

 

[wannagonorth]

I just reread parts of Linda Arndt's deposition (I guess it was her suit against the Boulder PD) and she says that John was carrying JonBenet facing him, but with her head higher than his, gripping her abound her legs. What she noted was the strangeness of putting her head up so high, like he didn't want to have to see her face.

I don't know how much can be made of this, really. That may have been his usual manner of carrying JonBenet into the house, such as the night before when he supposedly carried her in sleeping from the back seat. I haven't hoisted up a six-year old in recent memory (and never one in rigor mortis, thankfully) - maybe it's more secure or easier to walk with the child held around the legs (and drooping over your shoulder a bit, presumably) than around the waist or under the child's arms.

 

[Bey]

Lol at next doors cat! Yeah I'd imagined him cradling her too - though thinking about it properly, of course that wouldn't work with rigor.Btw I agree with tortoise that there were some sections of the cbs show that seemed biased, though hopefully there were bits in the two cut hours that padded it out so it was less so. I still agree (widely) with their outcome though

 

[Bey]

It is certainly harder to pick my six year old up 'upright' than it is to lift them 'cradled', when they are dead-weight. If awake, under the bum is easiest yes, and leaning over a shoulder.

 

[kanzz]

Found this and thought it was interesting:

Livor mortis is usually noticeable approximately 1 hour after death and is often apparent earlier, within 20–30 minutes. The discoloration increases in intensity and usually becomes “fixed” in about 8–10 hours; however, the time interval to fixation is unpredictable and may be significantly longer or, occasionally, shorter than the “typical” 8–10 hours. Prior to fixation, the body can be moved many times and the blood will resettle each time into the dependent areas. However, after fixation, the blood will remain where it has already settled even if the body is repositioned. Fixation is a progressive process that is not all or nothing. Thus, if a body with some fixed livor is moved, there may be some blood that is not fixed and which is able to resettle.

http://sin.thecthulhu.com/library/i..._Death,_Decomposition_and_Identification_.pdf

 

[passionflower]

What a shame there doesn't appear to be anyone here with the expertise to explain this.

Since I made that post, I've also been wondering some more about the position JonBenet was left in, apparently wrapped in the blanket.

I was surprised that the one autopsy picture I've seen of JonBenet's back, shows livor mortis (redness) and not much blanching. It could be of course that there are areas of blanching beyond the perimeters of the photo, like shoulder blades and buttocks for example. But what surprises me even more is the way John carried her body up from the basement.

He was carrying her higher than his own head as he went up the stairs, with his hands either side of her waist, so that her front was facing away from him. Det Arndt saw JonBenet's front as John advanced towards her.

This means that if JonBenet was lying on her back in the basement, John would have had to pick her up and then turn her completely around so she faced away from him before he took her up. Why would he do that? A more natural way of holding your daughter surely would be to cradle her to your body. So I started to think of why he would make that manoeuvre and deliberately turn her around to carry her out of the wine cellar. It seems cumbersome.

And yet another question arises. If JonBenet was wrapped like a cocoon with the blanket folded around her, as John describes, her arms would be folded into the blanket and held by the blanket, not left free outside the blanket and up above her head. I'm beginning to think that John misled everyone with his description of the way he found her. We only have his word to go on, but the body tells a different story, IMO.

The most logical reason I can think of, for John carrying JonBenet like that, is that JonBenet wasn't lying on her back and he didn't twist her 180 degrees away from him just to carry her (try and imagine that movement from picking up a supine child), she was lying on her front. Lying on her front with her right cheek to the ground facing the direction of her left shoulder (livor mortis on right side of face, tip of her ear blanched) and her arms up either side of her head. I think it more likely the blanket had just been draped over her, not folded around her.

This would mean that when she was laid on the rug upstairs her face would be exactly as the photo depicts. If she had been lying on her back with her face lolled over towards her right shoulder that side view photo of her would show her face pointing towards the camera, as I said in my earlier post above.

I can also think of a reason for the long cord around her wrist. I think she was already in rigor mortis when it was added to the scene, and her arms were already locked that distance apart by rigor. John's description of her hands being tied tightly together was always rubbish because her arms would have still been in that position when she was brought upstairs.

I'm convinced he hasn't given a true account of how JonBenet was left lying in the wine cellar.

GREAT POST!! How JR held his daughter always bothered me..............and why he brought her upstairs to show everyone...............really!

 

[Heymom]

I didn't know that JR carried her up like that, wtf is that about?! You would cradle them so close to your chest surely?! Not treat them like the neighbours cat you didn't like.

She was stiff with rigor mortis and starting to decompose. Her body was cold and it would have been repugnant to touch. Any parent would have been repulsed and horrified.

 

[Annapurna]

She was stiff with rigor mortis and starting to decompose. Her body was cold and it would have been repugnant to touch. Any parent would have been repulsed and horrified.

Understandably.... but then why move her at all?

 

[kanzz]

Just so we can clarify what Linda Arndt said about how JR brought JB upstairs and which direction she was facing, this is her testimony from the deposition in her lawsuit against the City of Boulder:

Q. How would you describe - I'm trying to describe for the record.​

​

A. Arms - he had his arms around her upper legs. He carried her kind of up and away from his body.​

​

Q. Just so I can get a proper positioning ofher body vis-a-vis his, would her navel have been around his face area the way he was carrying her?​

​

A. I'm more focused on her head.​

​

Q. How far above his head was her head?​

​

A. Above.​

​

Q. How far above?​

​

A. Above.​

​

Q. Were her shoulders above his head?​

​

A. I don't remember.​

​

Q. And so I understood from your report he was carrying her in a fashion where she was facing him. ​

​

A. Correct.​

[FONT=&amp]
BBM

I've tried to envision this. It seems to me that it would be somewhat difficult to have your arms around the thighs, and to have her up and away from your body, and to have her head above your head - unless he had her chest somewhat resting on his shoulder or head. He could have even started out in the basement with her in a different position and then changed as he began to ascend the stairs. I don't remember and can't find anything that says if he was carrying the blanket as well; but if so, that could explain lifting her higher to avoid tripping.

She no doubt had a bad smell. As for decomp.. JB was on a concrete floor in the basement (relatively cool) for approx 12 hrs. She would have had a foul odor, granted, due to the old urine on her clothes and possibly some oral and gastric odors after the tape was removed; but aside from that, I wouldn't think there would necessarily have been a great deal of odor of decomposition. The reason, I think, that the investigators made note of the odor was to lend some detail into the time of death. [/FONT]

I do sometimes find myself thinking this might have been a genuine discovery on JR's part. And that he might have just gotten sucked into the BR / PR vortex that morning when PR showed him the RN. I think he recognized her handwriting on some level, but didn't want to let himself believe it. My theory is that he asked her, there were heated words when she denied it, BR came in the end of the 911 call and that is why the terse "We're not talking to you.", and that is also why he distanced himself from her so much that morning.

 

[No it's not]

Understandably.... but then why move her at all?

In order to pretend not to know, that she was quite dead? In order to pretend not to have noticed the ligature around Jonbenet's neck? "Call an ambulance.."..urgently..

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

She was stiff with rigor mortis and starting to decompose. Her body was cold and it would have been repugnant to touch. Any parent would have been repulsed and horrified.

Exactly. Just another nail in the coffin. Literally.

-Nin

 

[Heymom]

Understandably.... but then why move her at all?

To contaminate the crime scene and get his and PR's fiber and DNA onto her body if possible. If someone else's fibers ended up on her, that would have been OK too, the better to cast suspicion off the family.

 

[Tortoise]

I just reread parts of Linda Arndt's deposition (I guess it was her suit against the Boulder PD) and she says that John was carrying JonBenet facing him, but with her head higher than his, gripping her abound her legs. What she noted was the strangeness of putting her head up so high, like he didn't want to have to see her face.

I don't know how much can be made of this, really. That may have been his usual manner of carrying JonBenet into the house, such as the night before when he supposedly carried her in sleeping from the back seat. I haven't hoisted up a six-year old in recent memory (and never one in rigor mortis, thankfully) - maybe it's more secure or easier to walk with the child held around the legs (and drooping over your shoulder a bit, presumably) than around the waist or under the child's arms.

Yes, I got my information from this post http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?316706-Finding-the-body

Selected portions -

John Ramsey was carrying the young girl in front of him, using both of his arms to hold her around her waist area.
From a distance of approx. 3 feet, as John was walking up the stairs, I was able to make the following observations to this young girl:
her lips appeared blue;
there was a bright red nark, approx. the size of a quarter, at the front of her neck;

I wrongly assumed that if John was carrying JonBenet facing him, and Linda Arndt was watching him coming up from the basement towards her, she wouldn't have been able to see JonBenet's face or the mark on her neck, she would have seen the back of JonBenet's head. It doesn't make sense. That's why I first (wrongly) thought he must have been carrying JonBenet facing away from him. Neither does it make sense that she says here that John was holding JonBenet around the waist, and in her deposition say he was holding her around the legs.

Just another set of contradictions to add to the pile. A police officer should know, when making a statement, the importance of reporting things accurately.

 

[Tortoise]

Where are you seeing photos of the body in the house?

These two were taken in the house

 

[madeleine]

And yet another question arises. If JonBenet was wrapped like a cocoon with the blanket folded around her, as John describes, her arms would be folded into the blanket and held by the blanket, not left free outside the blanket and up above her head. I'm beginning to think that John misled everyone with his description of the way he found her. We only have his word to go on, but the body tells a different story, IMO.

The most logical reason I can think of, for John carrying JonBenet like that, is that JonBenet wasn't lying on her back and he didn't twist her 180 degrees away from him just to carry her (try and imagine that movement from picking up a supine child), she was lying on her front. Lying on her front with her right cheek to the ground facing the direction of her left shoulder (livor mortis on right side of face, tip of her ear blanched) and her arms up either side of her head. I think it more likely the blanket had just been draped over her, not folded around her.

This would mean that when she was laid on the rug upstairs her face would be exactly as the photo depicts. If she had been lying on her back with her face lolled over towards her right shoulder that side view photo of her would show her face pointing towards the camera, as I said in my earlier post above.

I can also think of a reason for the long cord around her wrist. I think she was already in rigor mortis when it was added to the scene, and her arms were already locked that distance apart by rigor. John's description of her hands being tied tightly together was always rubbish because her arms would have still been in that position when she was brought upstairs.

I'm convinced he hasn't given a true account of how JonBenet was left lying in the wine cellar.

She wasn't wrapped like a cocoon. The police affidavit says he found her UNDERNEATH the blanket. He couldn't have seen her the moment he opened the door , thats why he changed his story and added the carefully wrapped ,with her head and arms visible.