Rigor and livor mortis

[Ambitioned]

I know. I didn't know whether to post it.

No I'm glad you did. I just forget sometimes just how cruel this murder was to this little girl coming from the hands of her own brother.

 

[singularity]

WARNING GRAPHIC


Last one, showing position on the floor and livor mortis on back, with what looks like an area of blanching where she may have laid on the garrote and it's left an impression, perhaps.

It is deplorable that John could describe her as looking "peaceful".

 

[Heymom]

Sickening. Just sickening. It breaks my heart. Poor little girl.

 

[madeleine]

It is deplorable that John could describe her as looking "peaceful".

He thinks he is so clever. He found his dead daughter, he must be in shock but he remembers exactly how neatly folded the blanket was and how wide and perfectly cut the tape on her mouth was. But he doesn't remember if he talked to the Stines that night. Right... selective memory huh

 

[BoldBear]

Heartbreaking.

 

[madeleine]

WARNING GRAPHIC


Last one, showing position on the floor and livor mortis on back, with what looks like an area of blanching where she may have laid on the garrote and it's left an impression, perhaps.

I never even noticed how small that "handle" is! An adult wouldn't be even able to pull imo. Or maybe it is not a handle. What else could it be? This drives me nuts. Thanks for all the photos. Happy finally more and more documents are coming out.

 

[Tortoise]

WARNING GRAPHIC


Last one, showing position on the floor and livor mortis on back, with what looks like an area of blanching where she may have laid on the garrote and it's left an impression, perhaps.

Strange, but it looks to me as if her shirt is caught up at the back in the cord. I can't think of any reason for her shirt to remain bunched up like that if it's not. Wecht I seem to remember said the ligature was applied over the shirt too, and I couldn't work out why he said that.

 

[madeleine]

Strange, but it looks to me as if her shirt is caught up at the back in the cord. I can't think of any reason for her shirt to remain bunched up like that if it's not. Wecht I seem to remember said the ligature was applied over the shirt too, and I couldn't work out why he said that.

Was wondering the same thing! It is strange.

 

[Tortoise]

I never even noticed how small that "handle" is! An adult wouldn't be even able to pull imo. Or maybe it is not a handle. What else could it be? This drives me nuts. Thanks for all the photos. Happy finally more and more documents are coming out.

IMO the paintbrush was added purely for theatre / diversion as to who would perpetrate such a crime. The cord was manually tightened and then this was added to give it mystery.

 

[Ambitioned]

IMO the paintbrush was added purely for theatre / diversion as to who would perpetrate such a crime. The cord was manually tightened and then this was added to give it mystery.

Agreed. Paintbrush was added just to point to an "intruder."

 

[singularity]

I never even noticed how small that "handle" is! An adult wouldn't be even able to pull imo.

Come on Madeleine. An adult could just as easily pull on that as a child could. I don't think its size has ever been an issue.

Off topic but I really like your name. For some reason you don't see many girls anymore named madeleine.

Strange, but it looks to me as if her shirt is caught up at the back in the cord. I can't think of any reason for her shirt to remain bunched up like that if it's not. .

Good observation. The person who strangled her was probably enraged and attacked fairly quickly. If her hair and shirt are twisted in the cord, they didn't take their time applying it.

 

[BBB167893]

IMO the paintbrush was added purely for theatre / diversion as to who would perpetrate such a crime. The cord was manually tightened and then this was added to give it mystery.

I've been suggesting that for years.

 

[Tortoise]

I've been suggesting that for years.

I think this photograph can help us to develop a better theory of what happened.

I think it backs up the theory that the paintbrush stick was not instrumental in the strangulation. With everyone's help we may be able to move this forward.

I'll explain what I mean.

The cord between the knot and the stick measured 17 inches. I don't have a 6 year old child handy, but if you have, dangle a tape measure from the back of their neck, and I'm pretty sure the 17 inches would end up well below the waist, and more likely on the area of their bottom.

The new photo shows that the stick was not hanging a 17 inch distance away from the body and it isn't resting in a pool of slack cord, it is stretched out. Looking at the photograph, I would estimate that is a maximum distance of 7 inches from the back of her neck. And if you were able to move it with your hand, it would swing across to exactly where the blanching and indentation mark is on her back, so it has simply swung over to the floor, as the body has been turned to be photographed.

Now take this a step further and know that there is an extra 10 inches of cord somewhere. Enough for another complete wrap around the neck.

From http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682514/The Cords

Cord Wrapped Twice Around Neck? Internet poster (snipped) [FONT=&amp]claims that in her 1999 [/FONT]Good Morning Americainterview[FONT=&amp], [/FONT]Linda Arndt said the cord was wrapped twice around JBR's neck. This is not visible in most autopsy photos because the first loop is buried so deeply in her neck. According to Internet poster (snipped) [FONT=&amp]reportedly shows a picture of the neck after the first loop was removed and the second loop remained. This detail about the 2nd wrapping may have been redacted from the autopsy report.[/FONT]

I wouldn't agree that the second wrapping isn't visible because "the first loop is buried so deeply in her neck" (suggesting it is underneath the ligature we can see). I think that photo released shows the neck with the first loop that was knotted around the neck, and after the second wrapping has been unwrapped. I think the second wrapping was exactly where we can see the white mark lower down on the neck.

I think JonBenet was laying face down on her tummy, with her face (left cheek) pressed into the floor and facing her right shoulder. As she was turned over to be left lying on her back in the wine cellar, her face remained turned to her right where it developed lividity. If you turn your own face to the right the neck muscles or strings (I don't have the correct term for these!) protrude on the left. I think the cord was wrapped around once and knotted, and then looped around a second time lower on the front of her neck, and pulled tight, causing blood vessels to burst under the skin, trapped in a triangular portion between these areas of protruding muscle.

I think the cord after the second wrapping may have been tucked underneath the first wrapping to enable self-tightening, without the perpetrator having to exert and experience the pull against her body, and that is when her shirt became bunched up with the second wrapping as it was being inserted under the first, maybe by someone wearing gloves, and so with impaired manual dexterity.

Then the stick was added and JonBenet's long hair became entwined within the knot on the stick. If the stick was already there and used to twist or pull the cord to tighten it, before the second wrapping, it would not have been able to be wrapped and secured a second time with her shirt bunching up as it is, and without the sharp stick leaving a scratch or injury to the skin on the back of her neck.

I used to think that there may have been an earlier partial strangulation because of the white and red cord marks on the front of her neck. Now I don't think so.

 

[Tortoise]

To me, this suggests the dark mark near her right ear was inflicted before the strangulation, as her right cheek after the strangulation was resting towards her right shoulder.

 

[Tortoise]

I think JonBenet was laying face down on her tummy, with her face (left cheek) pressed into the floor and facing her right shoulder. As she was turned over to be left lying on her back in the wine cellar, her face remained turned to her right where it developed lividity. If you turn your own face to the right the neck muscles or strings (I don't have the correct term for these!) protrude on the left. I think the cord was wrapped around once and knotted, and then looped around a second time lower on the front of her neck, and pulled tight, causing blood vessels to burst under the skin, trapped in a triangular portion between these areas of protruding muscle.

OMG. Hold the press lol.

I've just done an experiment. You can try it easily yourself, make sure you're looking in a mirror to see the results.

I turned my head to face my left shoulder, loosely pinched the fold of skin that formed amongst the creases at the base of my neck but towards the front rather than the side of my neck, between my thumb and index finger. I kept my fingers pinching loosely like that and turned, straightening my head, to look at the mirror. What happened? My thumb and index finger widened apart, like the base of the triangle does, as the skin moved back to its normal position.

That is what happened, I'm sure of it now, JonBenet's head was facing her left shoulder as she was laying on her tummy, not her right shoulder as I posited above. Her right cheek on the floor. The fold of her neck skin was pinched tightly by the second wrap of the cord, causing blood vessels to burst in this triangular compressed portion of folded skin, and then as she was turned over and her head straightened out the fold of her neck stretched back out, leaving the triangular shaped bleed that had occurred visible.

Her head then came to rest facing towards her right shoulder as she was laid down.

The dark mark near her ear could have been inflicted before or after the strangulation in this case.

 

[Tortoise]

IMO, this wipes out the autoerotic asphyxiation theory, with JonBenet laying on her tummy on the floor as she was, or a strangulation to cover up a previous neck grabbing injury.

 

[Tssiemer]

IMO, this wipes out the autoerotic asphyxiation theory, with JonBenet laying on her tummy on the floor as she was, or a strangulation to cover up a previous neck grabbing injury.

This was a theory? That she strangled herself for sexual pleasure?????


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[Tortoise]

This was a theory? That she strangled herself for sexual pleasure?????


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Well you know, I'm not up on these kinds of things, and often times I've seen the use of the term AE, so I just assumed that's what it was referring to. Maybe someone else who knows can jump in and explain the correct theory if I've got it wrong. My assumption is it was a theory of strangulation for sexual gratification, maybe without the 'auto' element.

 

[PositiveLight]

It is deplorable that John could describe her as looking "peaceful".

I was about to post the same thing!!!
She is in no way looking peaceful.
He's insane to continue to describe her that way.
You know actually what his comment tells me?
That there was never an intruder. Or he would have spoke on how tortured she appeared.
Just like in their first interview on TV they said they weren't angry that just wanted to know why.
No parent would say crap like that. In the picture exposing her back it does look like she was laying on the paintbrush handle. It's almost a perfect impression if you really look at it.
Kanz I do have a copy of the full face but its the side view. I haven't seen the full frontal view. Would you like me to send it to you privately?
She does NOT look peaceful in the photo either. Just forewarning.

 

[PositiveLight]

Strange, but it looks to me as if her shirt is caught up at the back in the cord. I can't think of any reason for her shirt to remain bunched up like that if it's not. Wecht I seem to remember said the ligature was applied over the shirt too, and I couldn't work out why he said that.

This photo was probably done to show the livor mortis.
Her shirt was probably lifted to show the marking and blanching area. It is quite possible that the paintbrush was on the outside of the back of the shirt and still leave the impression. Probably the crime scene photographer got pictures of everything at the scene before her body was moved. I think the shirt was just lifted up to photograph the area.