The ransom note and staging

[Ames]

The sexual abuse was one thing John did NOT want to discuss at all...wether on a tv talk show or with the cops. John claimed weeks after JonBenet's murder the abuse was news to him....apparently he and Patsy didn't want to talk about it. Not the least bit curious on what happened to 'that child'.

Yeah, see....I find that odd, too. I mean, IF my child had died...and there had been some prior sexual abuse, and neither my spouse or I wasn't involved in the sexual abuse...then I would want to know just who the h*ll had been molesting my daughter!!! The fact that they never wanted to discuss it, and the fact that Patsy said, "How do you know that?" when confronted with it during an intervew speaks volumes to me...and I mean VOLUMES!!

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, see....I find that odd, too. I mean, IF my child had died...and there had been some prior sexual abuse, and neither my spouse or I wasn't involved in the sexual abuse...then I would want to know just who the h*ll had been molesting my daughter!!! The fact that they never wanted to discuss it, and the fact that Patsy said, "How do you know that?" when confronted with it during an intervew speaks volumes to me...and I mean VOLUMES!!

You beat me to it!

If the ransom note was written by the R's, then why stage this as a "sexual" assult?

Because in the last fifteen years or so, we've been absolutely inundated with news stories like that. Liken it to an artist working with what they're given.

The ransom note says nothing about sexual motivations, etc.... It seems they could have staged the murder and used the ransom note (they, being the R's) without staging it as a sexual assult. If this was accidental or anger over bedwetting, then writing a kidnapping for $ note, then why do horrible things to your daughter's body when you don't have to? It doesn't have anything to do wtih the ransom note.

Well, again, all they would have was other notes to copy off of.

Maybe because this was originally a sexual assault/molestation that got out of hand... and the sicko thought he could hide that it was sexual by making it look like a kidnapping gone bad? Maybe whoever did this wasn't smart enough to realize evidence of sexual abuse/assult would be found.

I'm following you.

But I don't think a sexual assault would have been staged to cover an accident or head injury, because the ransom note said nothign sexual, so why would the R's do that to her body?

1. Because some people don't know when to say "when."

2. It's the ultimate crime. And thus, the ultimate victim...savvy?

How could they go on acting okay for years if they had done that?

Ask OJ Simpson. He knows.

It might be helpful to consider that if a sexually assaulted and murdered 6 year old girl, with garrote and 2nd ligature still attached, were found in the desert, an investigator would probably conclude:
JBR was sexually assaulted and murdered (no accident)
The motive for murder was to prevent the victim from being able to identify her attacker.
The suspect is probably a male pedophile acting alone.

HOTYH, I must congradulate you. You nailed it. If the body had been found outside of the home, it could so easily have gone the other way.

I tend to think sexual abuse had nothing to do with what happened that night. Even if JB was sexually abused prior to that night, this was a little girl who was taken to the doctor practically every day, why would they all of a sudden be in a panic over sexual abuse.

I can think of one reason: the electric chair!

Plus, it's the middle of the night and they have a dead child in their home, explaining and getting away with that makes any worry about sexual abuse seem quite petty.

That's easy to say. But causing someone's death while committing another horrible crime in the process is a ticket to death row.

 

[Toltec]

Yeah, see....I find that odd, too. I mean, IF my child had died...and there had been some prior sexual abuse, and neither my spouse or I wasn't involved in the sexual abuse...then I would want to know just who the h*ll had been molesting my daughter!!! The fact that they never wanted to discuss it, and the fact that Patsy said, "How do you know that?" when confronted with it during an intervew speaks volumes to me...and I mean VOLUMES!!

Soooo true!

The Ramseys never asked whether the molester was the killer. They did not ask if she had been raped or just penetrated. Nothing, nada.

The fact that both John and Patsy were incredulous at the thought does speak volumes.

 

[UKGuy]

Soooo true!

The Ramseys never asked whether the molester was the killer. They did not ask if she had been raped or just penetrated. Nothing, nada.

The fact that both John and Patsy were incredulous at the thought does speak volumes.

Toltec,

Thats a subject too far for them both. If they start down the what did he do road, and was it the same person means they cannot avoid answering questions regarding prior abuse and who might this be?

Two things in this case that are red-flags are 1st the pineapple residue, and 2nd the prior sexual abuse.

the 1st destroys the Ramsey's version of events, and the 2nd supplies a motive for silencing JonBenet.

Who was it that said things are pretty much what they seem?

imo this is a sexual abuse case, followed by a cover up that may actually be a conspiracy of silence, because other people have skeletons in the cupboard, so the legal process was engineered to make sure a do nothing approach was applied!


.

 

[BlueCrab]

imo this is a sexual abuse case,

UKGuy,

I fully agree. IMO JonBenet accidentally died from asphyxiation during an extreme sex act that involved children. None of the evidence pertaining to sex was staged. It actually happened. This would include the acute and chronic injuries to the vagina; and the erotic asphyxiation device around JonBenet's neck with its associated cord bondage on the arms.

The rest of the evidence, IMO, was staging to coverup the sexual aspects of the crime. This would include the fake ransom note to divert attention away from the family and make it appear to be a terrorist murder/kidnapping; the wiping down of the body and putting clean panties on it (but mistakingly size 12/14 panties instead of size 6); and the brutal tightening of the EA device around the neck (which was already on the neck due to EA being performed) and the crushing blow to the head to make it appear to be murder committed by an evil foreign terrorist.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

I fully agree. IMO JonBenet accidentally died from asphyxiation during an extreme sex act that involved children. None of the evidence pertaining to sex was staged. It actually happened. This would include the acute and chronic injuries to the vagina; and the erotic asphyxiation device around JonBenet's neck with its associated cord bondage on the arms.

The rest of the evidence, IMO, was staging to coverup the sexual aspects of the crime. This would include the fake ransom note to divert attention away from the family and make it appear to be a terrorist murder/kidnapping; the wiping down of the body and putting clean panties on it (but mistakingly size 12/14 panties instead of size 6); and the brutal tightening of the EA device around the neck (which was already on the neck due to EA being performed) and the crushing blow to the head to make it appear to be murder committed by an evil foreign terrorist.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

If your EA theory is correct I wonder how many of those children have grown to to continue practising EA, or were they given therapy of some sort?

None of the evidence pertaining to sex was staged. It actually happened.

I suspect Coroner Meyer might agree with you here.

I think there was a conspiracy, just how extensive is a moot point, but your theory extends to the Stines, one of whose parents had a position involving financial responsibilty. Then there is Susan Stines's extra-curricular activities, including impersonating people on the internet, so to influence opinion, very strange. Action taken by the authorities equals zero. Will their role in JonBenet's case ever be fully explained?

If your EA theory is correct then we may never know who killed JonBenet?


.

 

[laini]

Toltec,

Thats a subject too far for them both. If they start down the what did he do road, and was it the same person means they cannot avoid answering questions regarding prior abuse and who might this be?

Two things in this case that are red-flags are 1st the pineapple residue, and 2nd the prior sexual abuse.

the 1st destroys the Ramsey's version of events, and the 2nd supplies a motive for silencing JonBenet.

Who was it that said things are pretty much what they seem?

imo this is a sexual abuse case, followed by a cover up that may actually be a conspiracy of silence, because other people have skeletons in the cupboard, so the legal process was engineered to make sure a do nothing approach was applied!


.

Although I keep changing my mind, I am beginning to believe this is true. I do not believe it was just staged sexual abuse. I believe sexual abuse is the one thing that could account for this ending to Jon Benet's life. I don't believe an accident would cause this kind of cover-up, but I do believe sexual abuse could.

 

[laini]

Something that is certainly not new but seems to have become more popular among kids and teens where I live is what I think is called the choking game. A co-worker lost her son to this recently, and I don't believe it was Autoerotic asphyxiation but just getting a head high that he and his friends had been doing by choking until they almost passed out. I had thought maybe this could account for what might have happened that night, but that certainly would not account for the head injury, sexual abuse, and tying arms. Just rambling here, since autoerotic asphyx. was brought up and kids do do this choking game.

I will probably get yelled at for saying this,:hand: but I DO NOT believe her parents could do the strangling just for staging to cover up a head injury. No way. When I look at the postmortom photos, I say there is no way a parent could do that unless they were already sadistic, hallucinating, on drugs, etc... and already showed signs of being capable of doing that. I know this makes some posters here mad as hell to read that "a parent couldn't do that". I believe they are guilty somehow, but not of strangling her and assulting her with a paintbrush AFTER a head injury just to cover up.

I respect those who believe otherwise. This is what I believe.

 

[Solace]

Something that is certainly not new but seems to have become more popular among kids and teens where I live is what I think is called the choking game. A co-worker lost her son to this recently, and I don't believe it was Autoerotic asphyxiation but just getting a head high that he and his friends had been doing by choking until they almost passed out. I had thought maybe this could account for what might have happened that night, but that certainly would not account for the head injury, sexual abuse, and tying arms. Just rambling here, since autoerotic asphyx. was brought up and kids do do this choking game.

I will probably get yelled at for saying this,:hand: but I DO NOT believe her parents could do the strangling just for staging to cover up a head injury. No way. When I look at the postmortom photos, I say there is no way a parent could do that unless they were already sadistic, hallucinating, on drugs, etc... and already showed signs of being capable of doing that. I know this makes some posters here mad as hell to read that "a parent couldn't do that". I believe they are guilty somehow, but not of strangling her and assulting her with a paintbrush AFTER a head injury just to cover up.

I respect those who believe otherwise. This is what I believe.

Jeffrey MacDonald was the poster boy for success and he slaughtered his whole family right down to his unborn son. I do think drugs played a part in this because he was taking a form of speed.

But, why couldn't a parent become enraged and be so enraged that they pick up the flashlight or already have it in their hand and hit a six year old over the head with it. It is definitely possible that a parent could do this, especially a parent who has been up for 15 hours and is getting ready to go away again in 5 hours. Patsy had been going nonstop, parties, open house, Christmas, packing, etc. Why is it so hard to believe that this woman could become enraged and in a second kill the child she loved. A certain kind of love that is. I don't believe that subjecting a child to pageants is loving that child. She robbed her of a childhood with endless practicing because there is no way JonBenet just picked that up and the amount of trophies speaks to the amount of hours practicing.

I think it is possible for a woman who was set on sending her to pageants could also become enraged if she were exhausted and JonBenet made her angry. Patsy wants what she wants and she will get it and JonBenet you will do as you are told. It is possible.

 

[laini]

Jeffrey MacDonald was the poster boy for success and he slaughtered his whole family right down to his unborn son. I do think drugs played a part in this because he was taking a form of speed.

But, why couldn't a parent become enraged and be so enraged that they pick up the flashlight or already have it in their hand and hit a six year old over the head with it. It is definitely possible that a parent could do this, especially a parent who has been up for 15 hours and is getting ready to go away again in 5 hours. Patsy had been going nonstop, parties, open house, Christmas, packing, etc. Why is it so hard to believe that this woman could become enraged and in a second kill the child she loved. A certain kind of love that is. I don't believe that subjecting a child to pageants is loving that child. She robbed her of a childhood with endless practicing because there is no way JonBenet just picked that up and the amount of trophies speaks to the amount of hours practicing.

I think it is possible for a woman who was set on sending her to pageants could also become enraged if she were exhausted and JonBenet made her angry. Patsy wants what she wants and she will get it and JonBenet you will do as you are told. It is possible.

I believe so, too! I definately believe she (or he) could have become enraged and hit her over the head with a flashlight. BUT I don't believe Patsy or John would have THEN strangled her and tied her up and assulted her with a painbrush handle. THAT is the part that I don't believe. It had to happen some other way then just staging after a rage incident. IMO.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I believe so, too! I definately believe she (or he) could have become enraged and hit her over the head with a flashlight. BUT I don't believe Patsy or John would have THEN strangled her and tied her up and assulted her with a painbrush handle. THAT is the part that I don't believe. It had to happen some other way then just staging after a rage incident. IMO.

It does seem a rather bizarre and dramatic option, if the head wound came first and the rest was staging...but Patsy was a bizarre and dramatic person. I suspect we may be seeing the result of Patsy having some kind of psychotic break with reality, if she was the killer.

The strangulation, if in fact staging, certainly did its job and has people in disbelief that a parent would do that to their own child...which would have been the whole point in that theory. I have to wonder how a parent could do that as well, but if that parent already believed the child was dead and needed to remain out of prison to raise their other child (and was in the throes of a breakdown that had her behaving irrationally anyway), it becomes easier to visualize.

 

[Solace]

It does seem a rather bizarre and dramatic option, if the head wound came first and the rest was staging...but Patsy was a bizarre and dramatic person. I suspect we may be seeing the result of Patsy having some kind of psychotic break with reality, if she was the killer.

The strangulation, if in fact staging, certainly did its job and has people in disbelief that a parent would do that to their own child...which would have been the whole point in that theory. I have to wonder how a parent could do that as well, but if that parent already believed the child was dead and needed to remain out of prison to raise their other child (and was in the throes of a breakdown that had her behaving irrationally anyway), it becomes easier to visualize.

But there is no semen anywhere, no fibers from an intruder. You would think there would be something with this sort of a crime. The only fibers found are from Patsy's sweater and John's sweater (found in JonBenet's underwear, I believe).

Why is it so hard to believe. Shocking yes, but then think about it. If someone can become so enraged that they can pick up a Maglite Flashlight which is basically made as a weapon, imo. The thing is huge. So someone can pick this up and whack their child. I think that person, who is very strong, strong enough to do what it takes to overcome StageIV Ovarian cancer for five years longer than most, I think that person could rise to the occasion to put out a theory, as abhorrent as it may seem, to throw suspicion from her. I can see her saying, it is done, it was an accident, but I cannot leave Berke too.

And she did say to Geraldo Rivera's producer "I know in my heart I did not do this". I think most people say "I know in my heart I did not mean to do this.

She also said to one of her friends that "we did not mean for this to happen". I believe this was said the evening of JonBenet being found when she had enough valium in her to take her guard away.

 

[laini]

If someone can become so enraged that they can pick up a Maglite Flashlight which is basically made as a weapon, imo. The thing is huge. So someone can pick this up and whack their child. I think that person, who is very strong, strong enough to do what it takes to overcome StageIV Ovarian cancer for five years longer than most, I think that person could rise to the occasion to put out a theory, as abhorrent as it may seem, to throw suspicion from her. I can see her saying, it is done, it was an accident, but I cannot leave Berke too.
.

I think these are two different things. I think being angry enough to strike out in a rage is seperate from being the kind of person to then stage a sexual assault and strangle my child.

Of course, I may be wrong. I would love more than anything to find out I was wrong and it was an intruder all along.

 

[Ames]

Soooo true!

The Ramseys never asked whether the molester was the killer. They did not ask if she had been raped or just penetrated. Nothing, nada.

The fact that both John and Patsy were incredulous at the thought does speak volumes.

It seems to me that they are really good at sweeping things under the rug...with the hopes that it will all just GO AWAY. The Ramsey's didn't ask ALOT of questions...that any parent of a murdered child would have. Like with the questions that you posted..."was the molester the killer?" "Was she raped or just penetrated?" I would have been racking my brain, trying to figure out WHO could have molested her. Who had she been around in the last few days? Whose house was she over at playing? Could Burke's friends have something to do with this? Was it a teacher at her school? Was it one of her grandparents? Was it one of their many "friends"? Why didn't the dr. see it and know that she had been molested? SO MANY QUESTIONS....could and should have been asked by the Ramsey's. Questions...that any innocent parents would have wanted the answer to. But....the Ramseys? No, they are not your ordinary parents you see. All they wanted to know, when confronted with the fact that JB had some prior sexual abuse....was "How do you know that?" Nope, that wouldn't have been my FIRST question....but, then again...I am speaking from an innocent parent's perspective.

 

[Ames]

Why is it so hard to believe that this woman could become enraged and in a second kill the child she loved[/color]. .

Because, for some reason.....people think that she was Saint Patsy. I don't know why, though....they would think this. And for some reason, people can't fathom the fact that their ARE parents out there, that kill their own children...whether it be in a rage...OR...just because they do not want them anymore. It DOES happen...and unfortunately...it happens every single day.

 

[Ames]

It does seem a rather bizarre and dramatic option, if the head wound came first and the rest was staging...but Patsy was a bizarre and dramatic person. I suspect we may be seeing the result of Patsy having some kind of psychotic break with reality, if she was the killer.

The strangulation, if in fact staging, certainly did its job and has people in disbelief that a parent would do that to their own child...which would have been the whole point in that theory. I have to wonder how a parent could do that as well, but if that parent already believed the child was dead and needed to remain out of prison to raise their other child (and was in the throes of a breakdown that had her behaving irrationally anyway), it becomes easier to visualize.

Exactly..I agree 100 percent with you on this. Patsy, imo....heard JB's skull crack..., JB was knocked unconscious, had a faint...undetectable pulse (by someone who is NOT in the medical field...unless, Patsy was a nurse, and I didn't know it)....and Patsy..imo...thought that JB was already dead. This is the only explanation for the bizarre staging.

 

[Ames]

But there is no semen anywhere, no fibers from an intruder. You would think there would be something with this sort of a crime. The only fibers found are from Patsy's sweater and John's sweater (found in JonBenet's underwear, I believe).

Why is it so hard to believe. Shocking yes, but then think about it. If someone can become so enraged that they can pick up a Maglite Flashlight which is basically made as a weapon, imo. The thing is huge. So someone can pick this up and whack their child. I think that person, who is very strong, strong enough to do what it takes to overcome StageIV Ovarian cancer for five years longer than most, I think that person could rise to the occasion to put out a theory, as abhorrent as it may seem, to throw suspicion from her. I can see her saying, it is done, it was an accident, but I cannot leave Berke too.

And she did say to Geraldo Rivera's producer "I know in my heart I did not do this". I think most people say "I know in my heart I did not mean to do this.

She also said to one of her friends that "we did not mean for this to happen". I believe this was said the evening of JonBenet being found when she had enough valium in her to take her guard away.

And she also said...as she was lying down, and reaching up and touching one of her friend's face..."could you please fix this". I am assuming that she meant the death of JB....and that she wasn't talking about sewing a button on a shirt.

 

[Solace]

Because, for some reason.....people think that she was Saint Patsy. I don't know why, though....they would think this. And for some reason, people can't fathom the fact that their ARE parents out there, that kill their own children...whether it be in a rage...OR...just because they do not want them anymore. It DOES happen...and unfortunately...it happens every single day.

You make me laugh out loud. My son believes she was mentally ill.

She looks a little whacko to me, but she also looks like she could get very angry. But she has to be somewhat off to subject her only child to pageants, especially after she is diagnozed with cancer and knows her time is limited with her. So you are going to spend your last years with your child practicing. That is not a very sound thing to do.

 

[Ames]

You make me laugh out loud. My son believes she was mentally ill.

She looks a little whacko to me, but she also looks like she could get very angry. But she has to be somewhat off to subject her only child to pageants, especially after she is diagnozed with cancer and knows her time is limited with her. So you are going to spend your last years with your child practicing. That is not a very sound thing to do.

Yeah, she looks to me like she could have been a real bi*ch, at times. I sure wouldn't have wanted to piss her off, thats for sure.

 

[Toltec]

It seems to me that they are really good at sweeping things under the rug...with the hopes that it will all just GO AWAY. The Ramsey's didn't ask ALOT of questions...that any parent of a murdered child would have. Like with the questions that you posted..."was the molester the killer?" "Was she raped or just penetrated?" I would have been racking my brain, trying to figure out WHO could have molested her. Who had she been around in the last few days? Whose house was she over at playing? Could Burke's friends have something to do with this? Was it a teacher at her school? Was it one of her grandparents? Was it one of their many "friends"? Why didn't the dr. see it and know that she had been molested? SO MANY QUESTIONS....could and should have been asked by the Ramsey's. Questions...that any innocent parents would have wanted the answer to. But....the Ramseys? No, they are not your ordinary parents you see. All they wanted to know, when confronted with the fact that JB had some prior sexual abuse....was "How do you know that?" Nope, that wouldn't have been my FIRST question....but, then again...I am speaking from an innocent parent's perspective.

Maybe that was what Priscilla White wanted to talk to Patsy about in Atlanta. I recall that Priscilla wanted a minute of Patsy's time:

PR: I just sort of remember Priscilla standing in my mother's living room, family room, you know, just kind of like this and saying, "Well, I know what's going on," and she said, "if you would give me a few minutes of your time, I could let you in on some things." And I turned to her and I said, "I am the mother of this child. And I know nothing."

TH: What was she referring to?

PR: I don't have a clue. I really, I mean, you know, so many times I wish I would have taken her up on it to see what the hell she was talking about. There was just her - you know, it was just this kind of "I know what's going on here and you don't, and if you give me a few minutes of your time, I could clue you in."

TH: But she didn't give you a clue or -

PR: Didn't say, didn't say.

What kind of parent dismisses any clues or information on her daughters death???