Why would the DT not use a mental defense?

[Hali]

I recommend looking this up:

Regina v. M'Naghten in 1843.

Here is an "easy" link:

http://www.answers.com/topic/mcnaghten-rules

I read this article. In regard, perhaps, to Casey allegedly having given her daughter drugs to put her to sleep; this article would be saying Casey didn't understand that doing this was wrong. According to the article, this would be not understanding the quality of her actions. Would this be a correct interpretation on my end?

 

[Hali]

I honestly think she wouldn't let them. It doesn't help that Baez is so inept either. But I think this girl truly would not go down that road. In her mind, there is nothing wrong with her and she will find a way to lie her way out of this like she normally does. I think she sees herself as better than the witnesses, the SA, the jury, the judge, even her own defense team. She really thinks she's going to walk out of that courtroom a free woman.

This is the only area where I feel the tiniest bit a sympathy for the defense. I don't think Casey gave them much choice AT ALL on how to defend her. And with no one able to find anything mentally wrong with her, the defense was stuck with being told by Casey on how to defend to her. A competent attorney finds a way to defend a client despite how bad the client is. Baez just simply is not competent or decent and is failing miserably at defending ICA, who is probably one of the most undefendable clients on the planet.

Heck, I think he's STILL figuring out how to defend her - I swear, never in my LIFE did I EVER think I would hear an attorney say in the court room that he JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING to defend a client with. That just CAN'T be normal for any attorney to say! I about fell out of my chair at work. I really hope he is NOT an attorney after this case. He is such an embarrassment to every hard working, decent attorney out there.

But getting back to Casey, I think she totally drove this defense into the ground. She refused to take any responsibility or go with any mental defense. I think she gets more ticked at Baez each time he tries to suggest something is wrong her. I think that is why they are NOT getting along AT ALL. Casey just didn't leave any defense much to work with, and I think Baez is trying, and failing badly, to work around Casey's standards. Casey is doing a mighty fine job of getting herself convicted in this trial, and that's another thing I never thought I would see in my lifetime. I really think the jury wants to convict her NOW and be done with it. I mean, dayum, it's only about two weeks into the trial!

Casey is definitely her own worst enemy here. I really think she is evil and has no soul. If only psychology had an entry in the latest DSM about that! And there is this show on ID Discovery where this guy came up with a scale for murderers and serial killers. The show gives some info about murderers and serial killers and then he talks about where they fall on his scale (I think it goes up to twenty or something like that) - I am dying to know where Casey would fall on that scale!

She is not insane. She knows what she is doing, and she knows right from wrong. She doesn't give a carp. That guy that shot the Congresswoman in Arizona was declared incompetent for trial. I highly doubt Casey would ever consider herself to be in the same category as him. (And he looks insane too. He is creepy!)

Here is a link for an article about pathological lying: http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/3/342

The following quote (under: "Forensic Implications") speaks to what you said in your post.

"A final question concerns whether a pathological liar is competent to stand trial. Could it be argued that the compulsively repeated lying prevents the pathological liar from effectively assisting his attorney in representing his case? Inability to present a consistent story and to bring relevant information to the attorney's attention is likely to confuse the attorney and impair the collaborative relationship between the defendant and his attorney."

 

[Leomoon80]

Here is a link for an article about pathological lying: http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/3/342

The following quote (under: "Forensic Implications") speaks to what you said in your post.

"A final question concerns whether a pathological liar is competent to stand trial. Could it be argued that the compulsively repeated lying prevents the pathological liar from effectively assisting his attorney in representing his case? Inability to present a consistent story and to bring relevant information to the attorney's attention is likely to confuse the attorney and impair the collaborative relationship between the defendant and his attorney."

Thanks you so much for your Link. It's much appreciated!

I think Casey did not get adequate counsel (not sure how experierienced her counselor is?).....but for certain, at least imo from the beginning, she has exhibited and reported to have exhibited very strange behaviors (the fantasy life, coming out now in court) much of which the family had to know about after all, she was in her 20s. Not that we can tell everything going on with a mentally ill adult daughter, but the lies and inconsistencies did not start at that age indeed.

Surely her parents had to know how sick their daughter was, yet continued to play into the Zanny the Nanny exists for how long? Was it months or a year? I'm not sure, just know it was a long long time all the while I'm wondering, "why isn't anyone getting her medical help when they have to know Cayley is gone for good?".....and it all points to the daughter.

I just hope to God, that they don't abandon her now in her hour of need, someone so sick as this, as "unconditional love" is what a parent needs to provide to all of their children, sick and well.

As for the McNaughten rule? Well, don't they have to take that route prior to the actual case presenting a jury?

This judge is very keen about that December 2010 cut-off date for any problems the defense would have had concerning the Prosecution's case and has often used this date as the cut-off date for any type of further discussion concerning disputes or disupted testimony.

 

[wenwe4]

The reason that the defense is not using a mental health defense is fairly simple and can be found in the Motion in Limine as to Testimony of Mental Health Experts filed by Jeff Ashton, where he states: The reports do not diagnose the defendant as suffering from any clinical or personality disorders as recognized by the American Psychiatric Association.

So if she does not suffer from any recognized disorders, her defense cannot raise any mental health defenses.

This tells me that she had to have made pretty patterns in the scantron of her answer key in an attempt to not allow them the opportunity to diagnose her thus invalidating the findings....there is no way she came out from a "valid" psych eval . . . she is ooooozing Cluster B personality disorders all over the place. (IMO)

I wonder if the 2nd psych eval the DT told her to really answer truthfully . . . she did....the depo came out and confirmed no Axis I diagnosis ....all character traits in her personality. Therefore, we still have no diagnosis unless the DT is willing to allow kc to undergo a complete psych eval from 2 psychologists - one for the defense and one for the prosecution.....of course it is too late down the track for all of this (IMO)

 

[wenwe4]

I honestly think she wouldn't let them. It doesn't help that Baez is so inept either. But I think this girl truly would not go down that road. In her mind, there is nothing wrong with her and she will find a way to lie her way out of this like she normally does. I think she sees herself as better than the witnesses, the SA, the jury, the judge, even her own defense team. She really thinks she's going to walk out of that courtroom a free woman.

This is the only area where I feel the tiniest bit a sympathy for the defense. I don't think Casey gave them much choice AT ALL on how to defend her. And with no one able to find anything mentally wrong with her, the defense was stuck with being told by Casey on how to defend to her. A competent attorney finds a way to defend a client despite how bad the client is. Baez just simply is not competent or decent and is failing miserably at defending ICA, who is probably one of the most undefendable clients on the planet.

Heck, I think he's STILL figuring out how to defend her - I swear, never in my LIFE did I EVER think I would hear an attorney say in the court room that he JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING to defend a client with. That just CAN'T be normal for any attorney to say! I about fell out of my chair at work. I really hope he is NOT an attorney after this case. He is such an embarrassment to every hard working, decent attorney out there.

But getting back to Casey, I think she totally drove this defense into the ground. She refused to take any responsibility or go with any mental defense. I think she gets more ticked at Baez each time he tries to suggest something is wrong her. I think that is why they are NOT getting along AT ALL. Casey just didn't leave any defense much to work with, and I think Baez is trying, and failing badly, to work around Casey's standards. Casey is doing a mighty fine job of getting herself convicted in this trial, and that's another thing I never thought I would see in my lifetime. I really think the jury wants to convict her NOW and be done with it. I mean, dayum, it's only about two weeks into the trial!

Casey is definitely her own worst enemy here. I really think she is evil and has no soul. If only psychology had an entry in the latest DSM about that! And there is this show on ID Discovery where this guy came up with a scale for murderers and serial killers. The show gives some info about murderers and serial killers and then he talks about where they fall on his scale (I think it goes up to twenty or something like that) - I am dying to know where Casey would fall on that scale!

She is not insane. She knows what she is doing, and she knows right from wrong. She doesn't give a carp. That guy that shot the Congresswoman in Arizona was declared incompetent for trial. I highly doubt Casey would ever consider herself to be in the same category as him. (And he looks insane too. He is creepy!)

I so agree with you! Furthering this ....JB has mentioned multiple times in court that he is trying to represent his client to the best of his ability, he has been concerned every time that a negative comment is made about him.

KC will not allow her "minions" to say a negative word about her.....she is angry that JB is saying something is not right and this hurts (he knows he has to acknowledge this to the jury)...what cuts her to the core is that someone is getting hugs, support, love, companionship, comfort, etc and she is not (ie: her parents and Lee).

She has been isolated from human contact for 2 1/2 years....she is on stage and got the spotlight....this is the best that it gets for her with the exception of being on stage in the hot body contest. Miss KC in her shining moment - she has fame.....so much more than your average inmate!

 

[Sabrina2011]

If he had gotten up in his opening statement and said the baby drown in the pool, Casey was in full blown panic and hid the body.

That sounds way more possible.. (OR found her dead in the car, left her in ran in to shop came out she suffocated, or gave her something to make her sleep (i have known moms do that) and she stopped breathing)

Heck it would be way more believable, and if she broke down crying saying it was an accident and she panicked I think she would have a shot.

 

[Wholehearted]

This tells me that she had to have made pretty patterns in the scantron of her answer key in an attempt to not allow them the opportunity to diagnose her thus invalidating the findings....there is no way she came out from a "valid" psych eval . . . she is ooooozing Cluster B personality disorders all over the place. (IMO)

I wonder if the 2nd psych eval the DT told her to really answer truthfully . . . she did....the depo came out and confirmed no Axis I diagnosis ....all character traits in her personality. Therefore, we still have no diagnosis unless the DT is willing to allow kc to undergo a complete psych eval from 2 psychologists - one for the defense and one for the prosecution.....of course it is too late down the track for all of this (IMO)

I don't understand why they would have stopped the deposition of the psychiatrist, though, if Casey refused to cooperate and told the psychiatrist nothing. Also, her initial evaluation was completed, right? I mean, I'm guessing she had to have been evaluated to some meaningful degree in order to be found competent to stand trial?

I'm really curious about the whole parade of psychiatrists resulting in no diagnoses. It just doesn't add up for me, though I definitely have no expertise in this area.

 

[Leomoon80]

Here is a link for an article about pathological lying: http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/3/342

The following quote (under: "Forensic Implications") speaks to what you said in your post.

"A final question concerns whether a pathological liar is competent to stand trial. Could it be argued that the compulsively repeated lying prevents the pathological liar from effectively assisting his attorney in representing his case? Inability to present a consistent story and to bring relevant information to the attorney's attention is likely to confuse the attorney and impair the collaborative relationship between the defendant and his attorney."

It all reminds me of the old saying, "There is the letter of the Law and then there is the Spirit of the law"

Why doesn't the spirit of any said law, allow for the mentally ill defined to be re-evaluated by a team of competent psychiatrists?

Isn't that the whole spirit behind why a law was written anyway?

Too many must fall between the cracks in life.

Does anyone know if her family is visiting her or is she now a throw-away by the world?

A pathological liar not worthy of anyone's time of day? Does her brother visit her in the jail on visitor's day, I wonder?


How awful to imagine this.

Doesn't anyone who calls her this, (and I'm not disputing she may indeed be) wonder where the pathology comes from or from whence it's beginnings?

 

[Whome?]

IMHO There is something very very wrong, with ICA. All you have to do is look at her during the day when court is in session. Her mannerisms and body language alude to an individual who has a superiority complex,amongst other things.At times she has this "haughty" look. My only consulation regarding this very troubled young woman,is when she is convicted and sentenced to either LWOP/or the DP trust me she will be given a suite at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. I know that there are probably Dr's watching this trial waiting for it to be over to interview her,she is truly a rarity,to have the ability to lie and make up stories like she does .They will make her "feel special" so that she would cooperate. I just hope she gets the help she needs,but at the same time,I would never ,ever want to see her released into society again. JMHO:twocents:

 

[shgrbkr]

I suspect that the DT had KC evaluated and did not like what their own examiners concluded. Besides, if they introduced mental defect or some such thing, it opens the door for the SA to have her examined by their own experts, and Baez and co. likely did not want to do that.

If KC was determined to have a personality disorder, and I imagine she does have one, it is not the same as a mental defect. Most people with personality disorders are not able to be "rehabilitated," they don't have the insight to change and the disorder has become such an integral part of themselves so they just are who they are. A narcissist will never be convinced that they are not All Important. They will always be self-absorbed. It's natural to them.

 

[LancelotLink]

What IS she? Evil, just simply evil.

Evil, lazy, jealous and shows a tendency to be a self-serving nitwit.

Which brings me to question if the jury is to believe her actions stem from sexual abuse, why did none of the psychiatric evaluations reveal this?

 

[LancelotLink]

IMHO There is something very very wrong, with ICA. All you have to do is look at her during the day when court is in session. Her mannerisms and body language alude to an individual who has a superiority complex,amongst other things.At times she has this "haughty" look. My only consulation regarding this very troubled young woman,is when she is convicted and sentenced to either LWOP/or the DP trust me she will be given a suite at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. I know that there are probably Dr's watching this trial waiting for it to be over to interview her,she is truly a rarity,to have the ability to lie and make up stories like she does .They will make her "feel special" so that she would cooperate. I just hope she gets the help she needs,but at the same time,I would never ,ever want to see her released into society again. JMHO:twocents:

BBM
Perfect!

 

[panthera]

bingo. i was wondering, but THAT is the anser

but they could have if she had said it was an accident and my "mental state" prevented me from admitting it for so long (right?)

and, imo, that may have really worked for the jury----but she couldnt do it.

WILL NOT ADMIT to anything that might even remotely make her look bad

imo

She would also be examined by the State's mental health experts - something the defense wouldn't necessarily want if she isn't truly mental ill.

MOO

 

[DairyGirl]

I still think the reason the DT doesn't want to use her psych eval is that it wouldn't support their theory, and may even detail that KC is perfectly capable of murdering her child.

 

[RoseTree]

So no diagnosis of PTST, huh?

 

[Leomoon80]

I suspect that the DT had KC evaluated and did not like what their own examiners concluded. Besides, if they introduced mental defect or some such thing, it opens the door for the SA to have her examined by their own experts, and Baez and co. likely did not want to do that.

If KC was determined to have a personality disorder, and I imagine she does have one, it is not the same as a mental defect. Most people with personality disorders are not able to be "rehabilitated," they don't have the insight to change and the disorder has become such an integral part of themselves so they just are who they are. A narcissist will never be convinced that they are not All Important. They will always be self-absorbed. It's natural to them.

You make a good points about a narcissist and personality disorders being "chronic" . However I'm not so sure that her issues are not mental defects.

After all, who puts heart stickers on their dead child's mouth when it's taped with duct tape?

Who takes the police right to the door of Universal Studios where you don't work, and you take them to your office door before announcing finally, "oh by the way"

I wonder how many people with common personality disorders, like Bi Polar, manic depression or even narcissist would make up a complete Fantasy life with 20 or more people in this life who never existed in reality or in the way her made up mind said they did?

That just all seems rather bizarre behaviors to me.
:waitasec:

 

[cecybeans]

The mental defect route may be what they are going for in a "backwards kinda way". I've heard AF say "diminished capacity" more than once. But we have to remember that the DT does not want the state to bring in their own psychological experts (they tried to get around it by having their own psychologists try to testify as gloried hearsay witnesses because I don't think they believe there is a diagnosis that will hold up. Sociopaths make "fantasylands" with their lies too and they may not completely believe them but it doesn't matter - they feel their lies are justified so it is immaterial whether they lie to others - what they think and say becomes truth in some twisted Cartesian way).

The fact that the DT has admitted she is completely aware that Caylee died prior to all of this and yet she sits in jail pretending in front of her parents that the kidnapping story is real - and spews impromptu lies fabricated on the moment to put her one step ahead of anyone's suspicions and in a way that is completely calculated to get her off the hook; the fact she seems to enjoy manipulating people when she doesn't even need to and her lies and body language are often full of arrogance and scorn makes me think that the only real diagnosis anyone would offer up to explain all of her anti-social behaviors is sociopath and I don't think the DT wants to go there.

 

[OneLostGrl]

IMHO There is something very very wrong, with ICA. All you have to do is look at her during the day when court is in session. Her mannerisms and body language alude to an individual who has a superiority complex,amongst other things.At times she has this "haughty" look. My only consulation regarding this very troubled young woman,is when she is convicted and sentenced to either LWOP/or the DP trust me she will be given a suite at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. I know that there are probably Dr's watching this trial waiting for it to be over to interview her,she is truly a rarity,to have the ability to lie and make up stories like she does .They will make her "feel special" so that she would cooperate. I just hope she gets the help she needs,but at the same time,I would never ,ever want to see her released into society again. JMHO:twocents:

She really isn't all that rare.. murdering her daughter is the only thing that sets her aside from millions of other personality disordered people. People like this, families like the Anthony's really are not that rare.
moo

 

[OneLostGrl]

You make a good points about a narcissist and personality disorders being "chronic" . However I'm not so sure that her issues are not mental defects.

After all, who puts heart stickers on their dead child's mouth when it's taped with duct tape?

Who takes the police right to the door of Universal Studios where you don't work, and you take them to your office door before announcing finally, "oh by the way"

I wonder how many people with common personality disorders, like Bi Polar, manic depression or even narcissist would make up a complete Fantasy life with 20 or more people in this life who never existed in reality or in the way her made up mind said they did?

That just all seems rather bizarre behaviors to me.
:waitasec:

Whoaa wait a minute... see this is where STIGMA comes from! Bipolar (Which is just another, more modern word for manic depression) is a mood disorder, a brain disorder, a mental illness that is treatable.. not a personality disorder or a disordered character.

 

[MissJames]

Whoaa wait a minute... see this is where STIGMA comes from! Bipolar (Which is just another, more modern word for manic depression) is a mood disorder, a brain disorder, a mental illness that is treatable.. not a personality disorder or a disordered character.

TY......again .