Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[Isabelle]

I think it would just be in 7180 where it states that a person who has undergone brain death is dead.

Thanks. I didn't click on that particular link.

 

[Isabelle]

A bleeding time is considered an innacurate and obsolete test that is no longer offered in most hospitals.

A PT/INR is done, but I don't think this is the case with pre op labs, unless that person was on anticoagulants or a medical condition was disclosed. Pre op usually only includes CBC, Chemistries.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I can understand this point of view and respect you for it. If indeed someone shouted that the child was "dead dead dead," it's unfortunate and a terrible way to phrase things, but on the other hand, we have to remember that with the doctors and with the family, neither side should be demonized. We have to assume that doctors at a children's hospital are in the profession because they want to help kids. I can certainly understand being frustrated and overwhelmed. Think of the guilt they may be feeling and the sadness of this situation. It shouldn't have happened, they shouldn't have said it, but everyone in this situation is human, including the doctors who may or may not have made mistakes, but either way, still had a child die under their care and undoubtedly feel the effects of that.



Also, under the law Jahi is a body now, as she is deceased. This is all speculation and my opinion, but I have family in the medical profession and professional ties to law enforcement. It's quite common to try to separate the dead from the living to cope when you see death on a regular basis. Should they do it in front of the family? Probably not. But I sincerely doubt that the medical staff is trying to be callous, disrespectful, hard-hearted, or any of the above. That's JMO on the matter, but they work at a children's hospital and have also been put through quite a difficult situation here. Not as much as the parents, of course, and I would never try to belittle the family's grief, but just trying to remember that everyone involved is a human with complicated emotions in a tragic case.

It's just seems so wrong that if they were here, in New Jersey, her daughter would be alive and her mother wouldn't have this problem. She'd have what she's asking for...


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[Karmady]

7180 gives many good definitions/descriptions. Is there a section that defines "deceased person"? Thanks

In this case, whether a person is deceased is defined in the California statute regarding brain death. A person who meets the criteria of the Act is dead. The statutory determination of death would make her a deceased person within the meaning of the H&S 7180.

http://law.justia.com/codes/california/2010/hsc/7180.html

 

[Zuri]

A bleeding time is considered an innacurate and obsolete test that is no longer offered in most hospitals.

I should have said coag studies. You are correct.

 

[Karmady]

It's just seems so wrong that if they were here, in New Jersey, her daughter would be alive and her mother wouldn't have this problem. She'd have what she's asking for...


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There are lots of differences between state laws, though, that give different outcomes that might be thought of as arbitrary and unfair. One example is that in wrongful death cases, damages for pain and suffering of the deceased can be recovered by the family in Cali, but not in certain other states like Arizona -- which is right next door. So your rights to recover potentially millions of dollars can be determined by whether you die literally an inch to the West.

From the links:

In Arizona, the decedent's pain and suffering prior to his death is not recoverable in a wrongful death action. Lankford and Blaze, Law of Negligence, at § 10.7(1)(d), p. 269. Similarly, in a personal injury action brought pursuant to the survival statute, the deceased's claim for pain and suffering does not survive his death. Id.; A.R.S. § 14-3110; Harrington v. Flanders, 2 Ariz.App. 265, 407 P.2d 946 (1965). - See more at: http://corporate.findlaw.com/litiga...rizona-for-wrongful.html#sthash.45OCnYNo.dpuf

http://corporate.findlaw.com/litiga...ages-recoverable-in-arizona-for-wrongful.html

Q: Can a Survivor Recover Pain & Suffering Damages in a Wrongful Death of a Dependent Adult/EDACPA Action?
A: Yes. According to the California Jury Instructions (CACI), in certain situations, the traditional rule that pain and suffering and punitive damages cannot be recovered in a wrongful death action have been abrogated by statute. The latest jury instructions are instructive on the value of having a lawyer in Los Angeles, California who understands things elder and dependent adult abuse: A: If you were to look at a scale, preponderance of the evidence standard in a civil case would be a slight tilt of the scale in your favor.

http://wrongfuldeathattorney.ehlinelaw.com/differences-survival-action-wrongful-death/

jmo

 

[BeginnersLuck]

What portion of the public are you referring to? I am well-educated and usually supportive of science rather than emotion, but I find myself on the side of Jahi's mother. And I'm not overly religious, either. I am a mother, though, so perhaps that would be the common denominator?

There is a difference for having empathy for someones loss and encouraging someone that loses a loved one and doesn't want to acknowledge that they are gone and feels they will rise from their death, to keep fighting.

Psychologically, it is very unhealthy to provide false hope and encouragement. For those that care about the mother, the best thing they can do to help her go through the grief process and heal, is to be honest with her and supportive of her, but within terms of reality.

For those that want to see the laws changed, that needs to be addressed with the legislature. Until or if, that legislature is overturned, there is nothing that legally can be done in this situation. It's across the board procedure.

 

[Zuri]

A PT/INR is done, but I don't think this is the case with pre op labs, unless that person was on anticoagulants or a medical condition was disclosed. Pre op usually only includes CBC, Chemistries.

I would hope her mother in conjunction with her pediatrician would have produced a fairly complete medical history. If, and a big if, a question of a blood dyscrasia was present, further studies should have been done pre-op. IMO, that is incumbent on the surgeon and pediatrician IMO.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2014/01/01/McMAthStatement1_1_2014.pdf


Precautions: Officials saw to it that the door to the Children's Hospital of Oakland was barricaded Monday in preparation for Jahi's family's press conference

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eteriorated-moments-woke-routine-surgery.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/opini...n=Feed:+rss/cnn_topstories+(RSS:+Top+Stories)

A significant minority in the medical profession continue to believe people with dead brains and beating hearts are still alive. Believers include some of our wisest minds -- a Harvard professor, an National Institute of Health theorist, a chief of neurology at UCLA, and the former chair of the U.S. President's Council all reject brain-based death pronouncement. They agree with Jahi's parents that death is linked to circulatory loss.

Their beliefs may be one thing but the law says different. This is most likely why, in almost a month now, none have come forward to move her to a different facility and operate on her.

 

[rpipergirl]

I have not posted in quite a while,but, I just must. Dr's can be cruel. I had a Dr. tell my mother to "bring it on" as she was sending me home to die with dilauded rather than do something about my liver. Thank God my mom did "bring it on". We also witnessed her nurse ripping pages out of my file. Dr.'s play CYA. I think these ones are and I would not trust them anymore than I would trust my former dr.

 

[Zuri]

I agree. Any and all staff referring to Jahi as "the body" should be reported to their respective licensing boards. This is never acceptable behavior. When preparing a deceased patient for transport to the morgue, we have always referred to them by their name and Mr. or Ms. or Mrs and a child by the child's given name.

Listening to some of the videos of reporters doing press about Jahi, I was really appalled that they refer to Jahi's body, not simply Jahi. IIRC, It was the male reporter from KVTU that someone had linked up thread who mentioned it several times in his report.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

“That’s a huge roadblock for us so we’re going to try to go around that and go about moving her without it and finding a physician at the nearby facility to that will be willing to perform the procedure.”

Link: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/02/mcmath-family-says-jahi-moved-soon/

My apologies if this has been posted. Above is a quote just taken from Jahi's uncle.
They intend to move her without the procedures. I am NO med professional, but my husband, a Neurologist, has been trying to figure out why they didn't do this in the first place.
Would love to hear what any of you Med pros think about this.

 

[popsicle]

Henry K. Lee ‏@henryklee 16m
Fed magistrate in Oakland has scheduled an 11 a.m. hearing Fri in the case of #JahiMcMath, the brain-dead teen at Children's @Hospital4Kids

 

[gitana1]

I am just not sure Jahi can be considered a corpse. Definitions of the word corpse indicate one with complete cessation of all bodily functions, including heartbeat. I don't know that I have ever heard of a ventilated corpse either.

Let parents decide if teen is dead

Editor's note: Robert M. Veatch is professor of medical ethics and the former director of the Kennedy Institute of Ethics at Georgetown University. He is also a professor in the Philosophy Department. He has served as an ethics consultant and expert witness in over 30 legal cases including that of Karen Quinlan (1975-76) and that of Baby K (1992), the child with anencephaly whose mother won the right of access to life support for her.

A significant minority in the medical profession continue to believe people with dead brains and beating hearts are still alive. Believers include some of our wisest minds -- a Harvard professor, an National Institute of Health theorist, a chief of neurology at UCLA, and the former chair of the U.S. President's Council all reject brain-based death pronouncement. They agree with Jahi's parents that death is linked to circulatory loss.
Others take a position more liberal than the standard law that defines brain death. They favor pronouncing death in some cases even when some parts of the lower brain are still functioning. I have defended that view since 1973.

Why, then, does American law continue to force one standard of death on Jahi's parents and others who have plausible alternative definitions? Once one realizes that the choice among the options is not a cut-and-dried matter of medical science, why not let people have some choice based on their personal religious and cultural views? This is a "conscience-based" approach to defining death. We need to have a default public policy -- the brain-based definition currently in law -- but people like Jahi's parents should have the option to record their conscientiously held positions and allow pronouncements of death to be based on those beliefs. That's the law in New Jersey and Japan. That would mean Jahi could be classified as alive if that is what her parents choose.

The trouble arises when physicians want to stop life-support, perhaps because they believe the case is hopeless, and the patient or family insist that life support continue. We call this the "futile care problem." Society should show sympathy for mothers who want their children to be kept alive.http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/opinion/veatch-defining-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Note that this doctor's personal views are that death occurs even when there exists some lower brain functioning. So he's no extremist.

 

[Elley Mae]

The only roadblock that seems to be in the way is a phone call from the facility to hospital, etc, etc, etc. But he knows that already doesn't he? He should talk to dolan or read the judges order. idk jmo

 

[gitana1]

Listening to some of the videos of reporters doing press about Jahi, I was really appalled that they refer to Jahi's body, not simply Jahi. IIRC, It was the male reporter from KVTU that someone had linked up thread who mentioned it several times in his report.

I think they're doing that for political reasons.

 

[newmrsc]

“That’s a huge roadblock for us so we’re going to try to go around that and go about moving her without it and finding a physician at the nearby facility to that will be willing to perform the procedure.”

Link: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/02/mcmath-family-says-jahi-moved-soon/

My apologies if this has been posted. Above is a quote just taken from Jahi's uncle.
They intend to move her without the procedures. I am NO med professional, but my husband, a Neurologist, has been trying to figure out why they didn't do this in the first place.
Would love to hear what any of you Med pros think about this.

NOT a medical professional!!! My initial understanding was that no facility would take her without having those procedures done. The new one might be willing to. But would they then just move her with CHO's ventilator still in place? I'm totally clueless about these things.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

“That’s a huge roadblock for us so we’re going to try to go around that and go about moving her without it and finding a physician at the nearby facility to that will be willing to perform the procedure.”

Link: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/02/mcmath-family-says-jahi-moved-soon/

My apologies if this has been posted. Above is a quote just taken from Jahi's uncle.
They intend to move her without the procedures. I am NO med professional, but my husband, a Neurologist, has been trying to figure out why they didn't do this in the first place.
Would love to hear what any of you Med pros think about this.

If they do manage to successfully move her to NY, then they may have more luck finding physicians that will operate. NY and NJ shared the same laws at one time. I'm not sure if that has changed as of recent.

Again, it's finding the physicians that will take the risks that are associated with performing these procedures.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

NOT a medical professional!!! My initial understanding was that no facility would take her without having those procedures done. The new one might be willing to. But would they then just move her with CHO's ventilator still in place? I'm totally clueless about these things.

I am speaking through my husband and if that is against the forum rules, please let me know
Apparently, it can be done but not for a very long distance.
Please note that my hubby is also shocked about the concept and it is partial conjecture on his part.
It does strike him as strange that they would just now come up with this idea.
Again, the story is changing....