MS - Jessica Chambers, 19, Panola County, 6 Dec 2014 ; Quinton Tellis Indicted - #12
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rbarber17
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If you can invest the 1:14 hours, this YouTube video about the work being done to detect alterations to photos (and by extension, to video images) is pretty fascinating:
[video=youtube;9DKJ6gP5lJY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9DKJ6gP5lJY[/video]
That old adage by Ben Franklin, "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see" in this digital age is about to become, "Believe none of what you hear, and even less of what you see."
Not only are we not in Kansas anymore, we're not even sure if there really is a Kansas anymore.
JMO
ython:
[video=youtube;9DKJ6gP5lJY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9DKJ6gP5lJY[/video]
That old adage by Ben Franklin, "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see" in this digital age is about to become, "Believe none of what you hear, and even less of what you see."
Not only are we not in Kansas anymore, we're not even sure if there really is a Kansas anymore.
JMO
ython:
MizStery
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Jan 26,2016
The first two quotes are from yesterday's thread. The second two I copied and pasted from back in January.
In my post I am attempting to find continuity between what we know about:
1)1st fire
2)2nd fire
3)Perhaps the most important to understanding the TL:
Are we going to find out the likelihood of a unifying cataclysmic event linking the 1st fire and 2nd fire at the Herron Road crime scene?
I have reread cady's post from back a year ago and pondered if they were correct the reason they know 7:31 Jessica was at Herron Road is a volunteer firefighter who had just left the previous fire and was on his way home witnessed it.
I do not know the answers. I am trying to make sense of the timeline.
Any comments are welcome.
My opinions only.
:cow:
Jan 26,2016
Jan10,2015
Jan 10,2015ATasteOfHoney said:
cady said:
The first two quotes are from yesterday's thread. The second two I copied and pasted from back in January.
In my post I am attempting to find continuity between what we know about:
1)1st fire
2)2nd fire
3)Perhaps the most important to understanding the TL:
Are we going to find out the likelihood of a unifying cataclysmic event linking the 1st fire and 2nd fire at the Herron Road crime scene?
I have reread cady's post from back a year ago and pondered if they were correct the reason they know 7:31 Jessica was at Herron Road is a volunteer firefighter who had just left the previous fire and was on his way home witnessed it.
I do not know the answers. I am trying to make sense of the timeline.
Any comments are welcome.
My opinions only.
:cow:
MizStery
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Technically~Cole Haley is the last person acknowledged by Sheriff Darby's TL at the side of a mortally wounded Jessica.Remember that Detective Barry Thompson is Darby's chief investigator. Cole Haley's account has been treated as unimpeachable in the creation of the CS TL.The TL as vague as it is begs for an account of Cole Haley's alibi.If Cole Haley's alibi 'was' he was busy as Chief Volunteer FF duties at the scene of the first fire then very close scrutiny of his movements are imperative. Personally, I would start right there.Put Cole Haley under the microscope.Then from CVFFCH at ground zero (CS)expand my TL microscope from him.
I can see in the narrative that individuals are using vague cell calls as an alibi & attempted to influence the TL. But,to DA Champion's credit & his duplicity he seems to keep that out of his TL & I pray there's a method to the TL madness!
The TL spins out from the initial(1st) call Cole Haley makes which is to surprise Sheriff Darby. Then we get the CS narrative ......
My opinion only.
Please do not repost unless linked to Websleuths. :tyou:
Finally please feel free to critique my post. I enjoy reading EVERYONE'S opinions!
:cow:
rbarber17
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What really astounds me is how a simpleton with a gas can and matches can stump folks just as smart as this guy. I cannot begin to tell you how much I esteem the FBI for their competence and professionalism. How can this murder, with so much information out there, continue to remain unsolved?If you can invest the 1:14 hours, this YouTube video about the work being done to detect alterations to photos (and by extension, to video images) is pretty fascinating:
<video link snipped>
That old adage by Ben Franklin, "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see" in this digital age is about to become, "Believe none of what you hear, and even less of what you see."
Not only are we not in Kansas anymore, we're not even sure if there really is a Kansas anymore.
JMO
JMO
It would be up to forensics to determine if the footage provided has been tampered with or not. The duty of the first responder is to do a quick time-check of the surveillance footage prior to removing anything or duplicating anything etc.; to the best of their ability (this literally just consists of checking the timestamp on the surveillance & comparing it with phone/watch/etc). Next, whatever is salvageable is sent to forensics. They determine (once again, to the best of their ability) if there has been alterations of any sort made to the footage. More often than not, forensics is able to make these determinations. Intentional efforts must have been made in order to conceal most deleted material, as just with our smart phones-the smarter the surveillance equipment, the easier it is to retrieve information from a hard drive (yes, even deleted material).
So, my best answer is based on my experience, yes, LE can easily determine if footage has been tampered with in some instances, and in other instances, not so much (think about the older surveillance equipment that recorded onto tapes, and then just recorded over old footage-this does not happen within hard drives or up in the 'clouds' of more current equipment). Just as with anything else, good police work plays a huge part in the reliability in the entire process. It's no secret that is unfortunately not the case in those local LEO's investigating JC's case, so this hurdle would surely complicate things (something tells me their SOP for gathering video surveillance was about as stellar as their crime scene investigations SOP). That being said, it is still possible, as long as the equipment itself is of current technology (somewhat) and as long as nobody operating is a hacker or a person who is interested in & capable of covering their tracks.
Regarding 'calibrating' time, IMO FB is as reliable as anything else regarding timestamps. Location tracking can be altered, but time stamps are considered applicable and accurate in an investigation. You make a FANTASTIC point that yes, the surveillance footage could be cross-checked after the fact with that of the time stamp on FB. I have no idea if their surveillance shuts down when the store is closed or not. I'm with you in assuming it would stay on 24/7, but idk. With more recent systems, they do not delete unless you intentionally delete something. If your hard drive gets close to being full, you get a notification. If your cloud gets close to being full, you get a notification. If you choose not to buy more storage, it still saves current footage; just deleting earlier footage to make room. Hope this helps.
So, my best answer is based on my experience, yes, LE can easily determine if footage has been tampered with in some instances, and in other instances, not so much (think about the older surveillance equipment that recorded onto tapes, and then just recorded over old footage-this does not happen within hard drives or up in the 'clouds' of more current equipment). Just as with anything else, good police work plays a huge part in the reliability in the entire process. It's no secret that is unfortunately not the case in those local LEO's investigating JC's case, so this hurdle would surely complicate things (something tells me their SOP for gathering video surveillance was about as stellar as their crime scene investigations SOP). That being said, it is still possible, as long as the equipment itself is of current technology (somewhat) and as long as nobody operating is a hacker or a person who is interested in & capable of covering their tracks.
Regarding 'calibrating' time, IMO FB is as reliable as anything else regarding timestamps. Location tracking can be altered, but time stamps are considered applicable and accurate in an investigation. You make a FANTASTIC point that yes, the surveillance footage could be cross-checked after the fact with that of the time stamp on FB. I have no idea if their surveillance shuts down when the store is closed or not. I'm with you in assuming it would stay on 24/7, but idk. With more recent systems, they do not delete unless you intentionally delete something. If your hard drive gets close to being full, you get a notification. If your cloud gets close to being full, you get a notification. If you choose not to buy more storage, it still saves current footage; just deleting earlier footage to make room. Hope this helps.
DeDee
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The first fire occurs about the time Jessica returns to C'land at 6:30. With tech available that cannot place her phone at a particular location, either her ph was turned off or the battery was removed. DA Champion said about this 6:30 - 7:31 or 7:32 time period: "She was in Courtland moving about but we don't know where exactly."
Jessica is at her final CS one hour later at 7:32.
Jessica is at her final CS one hour later at 7:32.
SeriouslySearching
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Because you cannot prove murder if it didn't happen? If it was a suicide and LE tries wrapping it in a homicide box, it won't fit.
rbarber17
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Do you serious, SeriouslySearching? I'll be honest with you, I'd accept that she was the victim of a meteorite before I'd believe the suicide theory. Nothing I've seen or read about Jessica makes me think she was suicidal.
JMO
rbarber17
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Mizstery, I won't critique your theory, but will add one point about your statement, "whoever managed this crime scene was no novice with accelerants,burn times & handling flash fires etc."
If gasoline was used (and due to the extensive burning of the car, inside and out, I really think it was) then it had to be someone experience with such use. To get that kind of complete burning, the car had to be doused inside and out, IMO. Gasoline is very volatile, and in confined spaces, downright explosive. Even with all the windows rolled down, partially vaporized gasoline in the passenger compartment would have made a very loud "whooshing" noise when ignited, might even have created enough instantaneous pressure to blow out both windshields. The killer(s) would have been battling two things: anxiety over being caught, and fear of becoming part of the conflagration. Any gasoline spilled on the perp(s) could have resulted in the perp(s) being ignited along with the car, from the blowback. And at that time of year especially, with the air cold and dry, a simple static electricity spark from a sleeve brushing across a metal door could have touched it off. So the dousing had to be done very carefully, or at least as carefully as time permitted, since a passing car at any point could have caught the criminal(s) in the act. It is even plausible that everything was ready to go at some point, but the perp(s) waited a few minutes to be sure any approaching car headlights passed by before igniting it.
It would be interesting to know if any passing motorists had seen another vehicle parked near the CS, before Jessica's car was burned. That gated entrance across the road would have been about the right distance -- far enough away not to catch fire, but not too far to make a quick getaway.
I'll bet any vehicles in Panola County parked along side a country road nowadays are getting some serious rubber-necking from the locals.
JMO
If gasoline was used (and due to the extensive burning of the car, inside and out, I really think it was) then it had to be someone experience with such use. To get that kind of complete burning, the car had to be doused inside and out, IMO. Gasoline is very volatile, and in confined spaces, downright explosive. Even with all the windows rolled down, partially vaporized gasoline in the passenger compartment would have made a very loud "whooshing" noise when ignited, might even have created enough instantaneous pressure to blow out both windshields. The killer(s) would have been battling two things: anxiety over being caught, and fear of becoming part of the conflagration. Any gasoline spilled on the perp(s) could have resulted in the perp(s) being ignited along with the car, from the blowback. And at that time of year especially, with the air cold and dry, a simple static electricity spark from a sleeve brushing across a metal door could have touched it off. So the dousing had to be done very carefully, or at least as carefully as time permitted, since a passing car at any point could have caught the criminal(s) in the act. It is even plausible that everything was ready to go at some point, but the perp(s) waited a few minutes to be sure any approaching car headlights passed by before igniting it.
It would be interesting to know if any passing motorists had seen another vehicle parked near the CS, before Jessica's car was burned. That gated entrance across the road would have been about the right distance -- far enough away not to catch fire, but not too far to make a quick getaway.
I'll bet any vehicles in Panola County parked along side a country road nowadays are getting some serious rubber-necking from the locals.
JMO
DeDee
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If you can invest the 1:14 hours, this YouTube video about the work being done to detect alterations to photos (and by extension, to video images) is pretty fascinating:
[video=youtube;9DKJ6gP5lJY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9DKJ6gP5lJY[/video]
That old adage by Ben Franklin, "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see" in this digital age is about to become, "Believe none of what you hear, and even less of what you see."
Not only are we not in Kansas anymore, we're not even sure if there really is a Kansas anymore.
JMO
Again, Inspector, you are correct. This is a fascinating subject on manipulation. There is newfound respect for Dartmouth College and their Image Analysis Department. I attempted to keep up with the professor's matrix assumptions and reflective differences. Sundials! And specularities in eyes! Oh, my!
I'll never look at photos the same again due to this enlightenment. Thank you, Kind Sir. Now, if we could convince him to take a look at the actual CCTV video confiscated from M&Ms....
MizStery
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ATasteOfHoney said:
ATasteOfHoney posted the above quote over a year ago in January 10,2015. That question has haunted me;but recently DeeDee's posts brought it more in focus. Think about the quote from Ben Chambers in People that added 30 minutes to the burn time on Herron Road! Who better than CVFFCH had opportunity,training,confidence and professional gear to do a controlled burn?Someone who had a background in arsonist/insurance fraud i.e.fire investigation bureaucracy. Who else along with Sheriff Darby responsible for the narrative of crimescene TL. (My opinion only)
I join with ATasteOfHoney in asking:
Indeed,"who is comfortable around fire, iykwim???"
This post is my opinion only.Please do not repost elsewhere unless linked to Webseluths.
:cow:
rbarber17
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First of all, MizStery, let me do some "splain-in" (Lucy) about my "Swiss Cheese" comment. It probably made no sense to anybody, since we were both up pretty early this morning. You had posted a comment which I assume you later removed, but only after I had commented about one part of it. Yours said something about not making Swiss cheese of your argument, hence my reference to same. But your deletion made Swiss cheese out of my response. Capisce? Oh, never mind.
Since you mentioned insurance and fraud, I recall Ben bemoaning his losses not only of a daughter but of a fully insured vehicle which was not being paid for by the insurance company. That struck me as quite odd, since if nothing else, the insurance company should have accepted the arson as a casualty from vandalism (of the worst kind) and covered the loss under comprehensive, mais oui? If they thought Ben had done it, seems like the burden of proof would have been theirs and not his. Any insurance agents out there? Remember that letter written by the Major, in one of his more sober moments, explaining to Ben's insurance company that Ben was not a target of the arson and murder investigation? Almost seems like the standard in insurance fraud cases is guilty until proven innocent.
So does that mean if one of our houses was torched by an arsonist, we would expect the same thing from our homeowner insurance policies -- "We're very sorry, Mssr. Clouseau, but since your house fire was caused by zee malicious mischief of unknown parties, we're afraid you are not covered for your losses. And that goes for your little friend, Cato, too. C'est la vie."
JMO
MizStery
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Frequently I will write a post and then hit delete. The reason is simple;I reread my message if I am unhappy with it's tone and clarity I will quickly delete it. I apologize if it confused you. I post,but it is a little unnerving to me. Why? It is with a great sense of responsibility to both write & own the content of what it is I post.
There were two fires within an hour of one another.The State Fire Marshall likely had two arson fires to investigate. Shouldn’t someone in that area be aware of the first fire. Is this part of a timeline on Jessica’s fire?
The heat generated to gut that car should have rendered the metal far too hot to be moved in such a short time.The only one who has divulged this time line of moving the vehicle is Ali. Thanks to his posting to SM accompanied with photos.
Finally and to your point what was Ben Chambers adjuster’s take on Jessica's car? He has to be independent from reports of the State Fire Marshall. Like yourself I was bewildered by his entire dialog.
:cow:
This is the only case I can make reference as to how some insurance companies work as I assume each companies policies might be a little different from another. This is a case that went to trial (3 times for different suspects) for arson and it wasnt until the last court case was closed that the insurance company would make payment to Lance. This fire happened 6-4-04 and the last case wasnt closed until 11-8-06. I am not sure how it would have ended up with if it wouldn't have been for the conviction of one person confessing to organizing the crime because the person who set the fire got away with it. I am only assuming it would have been paid sooner if it would have been a cold case from the beginning. Lance is a good family friend and after the mess he went through he opted to not rebuild. http://www.wsaw.com/news/headlines/1391712.html
I found this live fire dispatch feed a while back but you have to pay to hear the archives. I didn't see 2014 listed when I attempted to listen without paying. It may be in the archives but may not. Just remembered the link and thought I would share.
https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/ctid/1450
Always found it strange that the person who called 911 or the fire chief or whoever they called needs to be kept anon. I read once that a person who claimed to be a cousin of Jessicas said the call was made by Jessica. ( I can't find where I read this at, so consider it rumor or theory or whatever) Impossible if the call came in at 8 and she was on fire for 30 minutes and with a burned throat. Could the anon person have used her phone to make the call? If so, were they there the whole time?
Classito
https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/ctid/1450
Always found it strange that the person who called 911 or the fire chief or whoever they called needs to be kept anon. I read once that a person who claimed to be a cousin of Jessicas said the call was made by Jessica. ( I can't find where I read this at, so consider it rumor or theory or whatever) Impossible if the call came in at 8 and she was on fire for 30 minutes and with a burned throat. Could the anon person have used her phone to make the call? If so, were they there the whole time?
Classito
Like, Madame MizStery, the TimeLine makes me
[video=youtube;QUiJZiAE_LU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUiJZiAE_LU[/video]
Listen at the 01:35 mark when the DA explains that they know where Jessica was at 6:00 before she arrives in B'ville at 6:15 as she is seen on a photograph from another video source. A private video source could be someone's cellular phone. It was at the private residence, in Courtland, where she stopped after leaving M&Ms!
I really want to pick apart when the DA said "got to Batesville" If the video that captured Jessica in Batesville when she got to Batesville do you believe its possible she may have driven South on 51, took a L on McNeely Rd, L on Eureka Rd, then R on Woodland Rd.
I know this seems like the least practical way to get to Batesville from Courtland but I am very curious when I am taking the DA's statement on this was the point of entry to the town. They do not know she came into town from any other location. It makes me wonder who lives along that route.
I am going to end with just one more pondering question. Is there anything made known that Jessica always carried with her that wouldnt have perished in the fire? Like was there some kind of metal on a purse or wallet, jewelry, brass knuckles etc. that can be linked back to Jessica? Here is a link to the melting point of some metals for a reference point. http://bit.ly/1Sf3Nqz
StacyMarie83
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Maybe it's a known burn/road sodie route? (Backroads used to smoke and drink on). The roads in my area are known to everyone, including LE - they are just encouraged to stay in town bc more drama happens at bars, businesses, and between neighbors than anywhere else :-/ jmo
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