CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #3

[DatelineFan]

I think the evidence that the kids went through a lot of trauma, in early childhood, is the fact that all 6 were adopted out of their bio family.

It takes a lot of verifiable evidence for social services to get the court to terminate parental rights. That does not happen unless there is some credible proof of abuse/neglect, which they assess cannot be turned around.

On top of that, there were apparently, no family members who could take in the children, or would take in the children. So that adds in another level of childhood trauma, imo.

So it does seem to be substantiated that there were serious issues in these children's early home lives. Otherwise they would not have been totally separated from their bio-families.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the kids were severely troubled or anything. Kids tend to be fairly resilient. My point is that it seems like these women possibly exaggerated the problems the kids had. And either way, they didn't do anything to help by isolating, exploiting, and abusing them.

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[DatelineFan]

There is a lot of talk about the subject in general. And maybe the subject in general should include WHY there are so many Children of Color in the foster pipeline, and so few POC stepping up to foster/adopt them.

There are so many issues that go into the answers to this that we wouldn't be able to even scratch the surface here on WS!

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[kkdj]

You know those thing# shirts caught my eye too! I too feel that Devonte was the "Golden Child" within the family dynamic. The kids stayed in the house. Neighbors didn't see the children for the first three months but Devonte was selected to take out the trash. He was trusted to do that task. I also think Jen felt threatened by Ken from the hugs project because narcissist parents (yep I said it) want control and for children at minimum to emotionally and mentally rely on them. They don't want their children to explore other relationships in which they are not the center of attention. So yes if she found out about his actions, i do believe she would have taken action at a greater level of what she normally does. She could have harmed Devonte at the house or did something cruel along the way.


IMO

Is it possible Devonte had a girlfriend? could jealousy have played a part in this? idk.....just exploring thoughts as to what makes people do wild and crazy things.

 

[Sleuth99]

I think the evidence that the kids went through a lot of trauma, in early childhood, is the fact that all 6 were adopted out of their bio family.

It takes a lot of verifiable evidence for social services to get the court to terminate parental rights. That does not happen unless there is some credible proof of abuse/neglect, which they assess cannot be turned around.

On top of that, there were apparently, no family members who could take in the children, or would take in the children. So that adds in another level of childhood trauma, imo.

So it does seem to be substantiated that there were serious issues in these children's early home lives. Otherwise they would not have been totally separated from their bio-families.

I think it's fair to make a distinction here. I agree that the children must have went through and or faced a high level of abuse and/or neglect before being adopted if they went through the system.

But not all abuse leads to trauma. There is no evidence that they suffered serious physical or psychological injury let alone developed behavioral issues before the Harts adopted them. Any thing that alludes to that is assumed. And these assumptions are being used as foundations for hypothesizing why these women were not able to be better parents, or what could have incited their actions and abuse toward the children and it's not fair. Like I said, I'm tired of it and it's unsubstantiated.


IMO

 

[DatelineFan]

Is it possible Devonte had a girlfriend? could jealousy have played a part in this? idk.....just exploring thoughts as to what makes people do wild and crazy things.

Where was he going to meet or spend time with a girlfriend?

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[kkdj]

Where was he going to meet or spend time with a girlfriend?

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idk. online? Maybe a plan she discovered? No basis for my random thought, just thinking about what makes a person do wild and crazy things. Jealousy is a top of the lister imo.

 

[katydid23]

Sure, but that doesn't mean the kids were severely troubled or anything. Kids tend to be fairly resilient. I them my point is that it seems like these women possibly exaggerated the problems the kids had. And either way, they didn't do anything to help by isolating, exploiting, and abusing them.

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I never said the kids were troubled.

I was replying to a post where it was said there was no evidence the kids had experienced high trauma in childhood.

I think that if social services terminate your parent's parental rights, and no one else in your extended family can take you in, that must be very traumatic. JMO

I think they did have a very troubled childhood environment. That does not mean they were troubled. But I do think they experienced a lot of trauma, negligence and stress during their early formative years.

 

[DatelineFan]

idk. online? Maybe a plan she discovered? No basis for my random thought, just thinking about what makes a person do wild and crazy things. Jealousy is a top of the lister imo.

I think all of this started at least 10 years ago...

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[human]

http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/...harts-age-may-have-been-miscalculated-police/

Info on identifying the kids and incorrect info regarding one child’s age.

The Hart mothers didn’t appear to have a lot of close social contacts at all, Mendocino County Sheriff Thomas Allman said.

“They didn’t have a whole slew of friends,” the sheriff said.

While social media posts from people who claimed to have known the family suggest that Jennifer and Sarah Hart belonged to some type of community, it is unclear if the Harts frequently socialized in person, or if they primarily kept in touch with their friends online. As CrimeOnline previously reported, a woman who knew the family when they lived in Minnesota said that the Harts were part of a large “tribe” that followed the same musicians and went to the same music festivals. The woman said that she only saw the Harts at these festivals, when she would often camp beside them, and stayed in touch with Jennifer and Sarah Hart on social media after they moved to the Pacific Northwest.

CrimeOnline has attempted to contact several people believed to be part of this community, and nearly all of them have not responded.

 

[SATA]

Where was he going to meet or spend time with a girlfriend?

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Online.
Or maybe just a friend or friends.
Like the Turpin girl who was the one to break free and open the gates.

Something else.
We are talking so much about the kids being adopted.
They have bio families. I am wondering if they are aware of this tragedy possibly and recognize their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews.
Painful to think about.

 

[georgiajean]

There is a lot of talk about the subject in general. And maybe the subject in general should include WHY there are so many Children of Color in the foster pipeline, and so few POC stepping up to foster/adopt them.

bbm

at risk of going far off topic, this is a very loaded subject. Who in our society has the highest rates of poverty, homelessness, and unemployment/underemployment? Who is still suffering the monstrous economic impacts of slavery? Who is still heavily impacted by prejudice, racism, and discrimination?

Some facts:
The numbers of black children entering the foster pipeline actually decreased in 2015, and the numbers of white children entering the foster pipeline increased. However, the numbers are still far from proportionate to population. https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFS/foster.pdf

The foster system is most aggressive about removing black and indigenous children from their homes. A higher proportion of black children (and their families) are involved in the system, compared to white, Asian, and Hispanic children and families. This goes back to the colonial and slavery roots of this country. Race and class are closely intertwined.... If you came here willingly, or were not indigenous, you are likely to do ok. https://isreview.org/issue/91/race-and-class-us-foster-care-system

Black children make up 2/5 of the foster care numbers, but just 1/5 of the nation's population is black. Is this because black parents are worse parents? No. Struggling or downright bad parents are equally distributed among different ethnic groups. (Just as the rate of marijuana use is similar regardless of race, but a higher proportion of blacks are in jail/prison for marijuana crimes than whites). However, it means that a GREATER PROPORTION of black foster families would be needed to support these children with same-race/ethnicity foster parents. It makes sense that there would be a shortage of black families able and willing to foster or adopt, especially given these families are more likely to be struggling financially themselves. Black children, nationwide, are 2x more likely to be in foster care, while white children are less likely. https://www.ncjfcj.org/sites/default/files/Disproportionality TAB1_0.pdf

Black kids are harder to find adoptive parents for, as well (also tied to systemic racism and prejudice that goes back to slavery). Thus, the price to adopt is much less. $36K for a white child, $18K for a black child. It is meant to encourage adoption of black children. But it reeks of systemic racism. http://foster-care-newsletter.com/human-discount-black-children-cost-less-adopt/#.WshDSS7wbDc

I apologize to go off on this tangent. I worried about the phrase "so few POC stepping up to foster/adopt them" because the words "stepping up" implies lack of effort/care. Perhaps that is not what you intended though!

 

[Gooddeeds]

Sibling groups who are adopted out of foster care are only in that situation due to a history of abuse/neglect, and usually quite long-term/pervasive. In a rare instance, kids that have absolutely NO biological relatives, and both their parents died, could end up being adopted from foster care. Such children would still have the trauma of losing their parents and family. But this is not a very common scenario.

It takes quite a bit to permanently end parental rights, and CPS will always want to find a healthy family member to take in a child (relative placement) before they would attempt to adopt them to a stranger.

Based on this (and having worked with such children and families for many years), I think its fairly safe to assume that these children did experience abuse and/or neglect in the years prior to being adopted.

What we don't know is:
- how long they were in foster care before being adopted,
- how many foster placements they were in,
- the reasons they were initially placed into foster care,
- the reasons their parents failed to get them back after they were initially removed,
- why there weren't any relatives they could be placed with,
- what type of experiences they had while in foster care (not all foster homes are positive/healthy ones).

So that still leaves a LOT of unanswered questions about their life experiences prior to being adopted by this couple.

All good points. This is why it’s fair and realistic to say these kids did experience real trauma prior to being adopted by the Harts. There is no way around that. By the time the bio parents are cited and removed much has taken place.

 

[georgiajean]

I think it's fair to make a distinction here. I agree that the children must have went through and or faced a high level of abuse and/or neglect before being adopted if they went through the system.

But not all abuse leads to trauma. There is no evidence that they suffered serious physical or psychological injury let alone developed behavioral issues before the Harts adopted them. Any thing that alludes to that is assumed. And these assumptions are being used as foundations for hypothesizing why these women were not able to be better parents, or what could have incited their actions and abuse toward the children and it's not fair. Like I said, I'm tired of it and it's unsubstantiated.
IMO

This is not why I was discussing the matter. Adverse Childhood Experiences create trauma. Attachment issues create real struggles for kids. Reactive Attachment Disorder is real and is overwhelming. I work in the school system, and ACEs and Trauma/Resilience are two main areas of my work. I was saying that pretty much anyone would likely struggle to provide the home these children needed, especially all six of them. But pretty much no one would create the abusive environment these women appear to have created. I have watched many families go through great lengths to support their adoptive or foster children. It is not easy, and the vast majority do an incredible job and give children the chance to live a good life. Some are not up to the challenge and sadly are not able to follow through, and send children back to the system.

My point was, the two women were not capable or able to reach out for help and never should have been approved to adopt.

 

[kkdj]

Online.
Or maybe just a friend or friends.
Like the Turpin girl who was the one to break free and open the gates.

Something else.
We are talking so much about the kids being adopted.
They have bio families. I am wondering if they are aware of this tragedy possibly and recognize their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews.
Painful to think about.

kerplunk in my heart! Their poor families. :tears:

 

[kkdj]

This is not why I was discussing the matter. Adverse Childhood Experiences create trauma. Attachment issues create real struggles for kids. Reactive Attachment Disorder is real and is overwhelming. I work in the school system, and ACEs and Trauma/Resilience are two main areas of my work. I was saying that pretty much anyone would likely struggle to provide the home these children needed, especially all six of them. But pretty much no one would create the abusive environment these women appear to have created. I have watched many families go through great lengths to support their adoptive or foster children. It is not easy, and the vast majority do an incredible job and give children the chance to live a good life. Some are not up to the challenge and sadly are not able to follow through, and send children back to the system.

My point was, the two women were not capable or able to reach out for help and never should have been approved to adopt.

What are the criteria to adopt? What is the agencies benefit if the children are adopted?

 

[Gooddeeds]

32!
That was super interesting, thank you for sharing!

Thanks Jinkasauros for the quiz, I think its a good and realistic one. I am always told I can read minds but in reality its the faces/eyes that I glean the most from.
Score-38

 

[human]

Did she have a special education degree?

I think it is listed here somewhere. I don’t remember which poster .

 

[Hatfield]

This is just a tiny bit off topic, but I'll share anyway...

With all the posts here about the photo of Devonte hugging the police officer, and people sharing their interpretations of what he was feeling in that moment, it made me think of the test called "Reading the Mind in the Eyes" by professor Simon Baron-Cohen.

Its a series of photos of eyes and you have to guess which of four choices is the emotion being expressed in the photo. It is designed to measure how well a person can read facial expressions/emotions.

I found an on-line version of the test you can take here- it will score you at the bottom.

Reading the Mind in the Eyes test- NYT

I thought it would be interesting for people who are trying to interpret Devonte's emotions in that photo to see how well they score on the test.

Thanks for sharing that test. A lot of the cases we review will have interviews, news coverage, or photos of people and we sometimes have to interpret people and their reactions.

I did better than I thought I would.
Score:31/36

I think what helped me in the test was I tried to come up with my own word that described how they were feeling before I looked at the options. And if I saw an option that closely matched my original word then I figured it was a right guess. Some were hard to tell and I had to really study them. It taught me that it pays to take time to really study someone before assuming something.

Very interesting and thanks for sharing.

 

[georgiajean]

FYI there are currently 12 sibling groups (African-American ancestry) up for adoption in the Houston area alone. Just in case the Hart children inspire anyone to get involved. Reading their very short bios is just heartbreaking. "We are loving brothers who are very attached to each other and want a loving home."
https://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Application/TARE/Search.aspx/NonMatchingSearchResults

 

[SATA]

Thanks Jinkasauros for the quiz, I think its a good and realistic one. I am always told I can read minds but in reality its the faces/eyes that I glean the most from.
Score-38

Then you blew the bank, the limit is 36.

Guess it´s a typo. :loveyou: