Was Burke Involved # 5

[archieil]

It was probably written in two rooms.

I think that there are two options:

* Using a different surface below the paper.
* Using a different pen.

May be the last page was written in the cellar (keeping in mind my theory).

 

[Userid]

I guess there are 4 areas: the kitchen, the dining room (pineapple), JR's den, and their bedroom (which had a desk if I'm not mistaken). I don't believe it would have been written in the cellar, but that's just my opinion.

If I had to guess, I'd say the bedroom or JR's den. I could see PR writing it in the den, putting the pads and pen back, then immediately calling the police. She wouldn't have left it in JR's den (or anywhere else she would have written it) because she didn't want the police to know where it was written.

 

[archieil]

The last page has different width of the ink.

Pad is probably sufficient as a surface to write the text.

I do not think that any table was necessery.

Looking at the letter I was taking possibility it was written using thigh as a desk.

[edit] it was writen on one side of the page each = may be he was using thicker part of the pad as a table replacement.

 

[Userid]

The pad would have been sufficient enough of a surface to write on, yes.

But the length of the note (3 pages) suggests that it needed to be written at a comfortable structure, such as a desk, table, or carpeted floor. It would have taken substantial time to write this note. Someone had to sit down and concentrate.

 

[archieil]

The pad would have been sufficient enough of a surface to write on, yes.

But the length of the note (3 pages) suggests that it needed to be written at a comfortable structure, such as a desk, table, or carpeted floor. It would have taken substantial time to write this note. Someone had to sit down and concentrate.

I would rather think about the possibility of seeing the car as the most important factor.

A table is 2nd of importance.

Sitting somewhere with a pad on his thigh would be probably sufficient.

[edit] I was looking at RN many times. If you do have a good scan of it please take a look and compare 1st, 2nd page, and 3rd page. Look at longer lines in letters. Compare 1st, 2nd and 3rd page for smalll "random" changes of direction.

 

[Cottonstar]

I guess there are 4 areas: the kitchen, the dining room (pineapple), JR's den, and their bedroom (which had a desk if I'm not mistaken). I don't believe it would have been written in the cellar, but that's just my opinion.

If I had to guess, I'd say the bedroom or JR's den. I could see PR writing it in the den, putting the pads and pen back, then immediately calling the police. She wouldn't have left it in JR's den (or anywhere else she would have written it) because she didn't want the police to know where it was written.

The den/study is the most plausible. The Christmas tree lights, and the lamp was on in the study when police arrived that morning.


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[UKGuy]

Because he knew police had seen them and had no other choice. It would have looked too suspicious for him to not hand them over at that point.

People keep assuming that the R's moved the pads, but what if the police moved them (assuming they weren't already turned over by JR before the police picture of the glass table was taken)?

Userid,
Cottonstar's timeline regarding the pads appears to suggest they were moved after being photographed, who by, I do not know.

If the police had seen them why did they not put them in an evidence bag? What I'm thinking here is that JR is moving forensic evidence around in an attempt to match whatever he thinks might be the prevailing homicide interpretation?

His strategy about leaving the pads in plain view as a source for the RN paper failed. So JR thinks I'll relocate them until whatever, i.e. obscure the pads existence?

JR did not need to hand the pads over, regardless whether the police had seen them, no officer had bagged them, so patently were not yet linked with the RN.

Did Patsy move the pads, she would have a motive for doing so? JR could have found an alternative writing sample to that of the pads, he chose to find them, just as he found JonBenet?

When Lou Smit is interviewing JR on this subject, JR knows how suspect it looks so tries to talk his way out of it, i.e. I have nothing to hide, here is the source for the RN paper and drafts. Which I already knew about but never bothered to mention.

I have the impression JR is trying out different gambits, and when they fizzle out, he attempts to spin his way out, e.g. chair in front of door, broken window, samsonite suitcase, etc?

.

 

[archieil]

Have you ever talked with a Police?

I am just wondering.

Can you give here a link with the instruction given to parents in the morning by the Police?

I think I saw it somewhere.

btw. JR was a CEO, used to push his thinking on others.

I had this in a hospital when I was trying to explain something to a doctor who had some ideas on his mind and more important his idea of money source not connected with my health status and curing it.

[edit] not only a chair, the same style of his thinking is in Encyclopedia and his statement regarding the back doors.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
Cottonstar's timeline regarding the pads appears to suggest they were moved after being photographed, who by, I do not know.

If the police had seen them why did they not put them in an evidence bag? What I'm thinking here is that JR is moving forensic evidence around in an attempt to match whatever he thinks might be the prevailing homicide interpretation?

His strategy about leaving the pads in plain view as a source for the RN paper failed. So JR thinks I'll relocate them until whatever, i.e. obscure the pads existence?

JR did not need to hand the pads over, regardless whether the police had seen them, no officer had bagged them, so patently were not yet linked with the RN.

Did Patsy move the pads, she would have a motive for doing so? JR could have found an alternative writing sample to that of the pads, he chose to find them, just as he found JonBenet?

When Lou Smit is interviewing JR on this subject, JR knows how suspect it looks so tries to talk his way out of it, i.e. I have nothing to hide, here is the source for the RN paper and drafts. Which I already knew about but never bothered to mention.

I have the impression JR is trying out different gambits, and when they fizzle out, he attempts to spin his way out, e.g. chair in front of door, broken window, samsonite suitcase, etc?

.

I think people are just over-thinking this again.

JR accidentally took the picture.

The pads were turned over by JR sometime thereafter.

The police re-shot the same glass table.

You can't definitively prove this didn't happen, and it's more logical than if he staged the pads himself in that spot, only to move them from that spot, and furthermore, only to directly hand them over to police (from the new spot in which he just hid them). The logic is extremely muddled in that scenario.

The "prevailing homicide interpretation" wouldn't have been know by JR at that point (if police even had one at the point, which they more than likely didn't as the case was still in the kidnapping phase when the pads were requested). The police only requested the pads, at that point, to eliminate JR and PR immediately as the source of the writing itself, which is textbook police procedure.

 

[UKGuy]

I think people are just over-thinking this again.

JR accidentally took the picture.

The pads were turned over by JR sometime thereafter.

The police re-shot the same glass table.

You can't definitively prove this didn't happen, and it's more logical than if he staged the pads himself in that spot, only to move them from that spot, and furthermore, only to directly hand them over to police (from the new spot in which he just hid them). The logic is extremely muddled in that scenario.

The "prevailing homicide interpretation" wouldn't have been know by JR at that point (if police even had one at the point, which they more than likely didn't as the case was still in the kidnapping phase when the pads were requested). The police only requested the pads, at that point, to eliminate JR and PR immediately as the source of the writing itself, which is textbook police procedure.

Userid,

JR accidentally took the picture.

The pads were turned over by JR sometime thereafter.

The police re-shot the same glass table.

You can't definitively prove this didn't happen,

....

No need to prove a negative, the above seems a reasonable account of what took place. Yet you know as do I that JR knew the RN had been authored on those pads, and he moved them, i.e. he had a motive for doing so, this is not a house tidying exercise.

For a neutral position on the pads wrt JR you have to say he was ignorant about one of the pads being used to author the RN, so if he moved the pads, it was just coincidental.

Yet JR gives himself away in his interview with Lou Smit citing how innocent his behavior with regard to the pads really was, was it?

The "prevailing homicide interpretation" wouldn't have been know by JR

I'm referring to JR's subjective interpretation not any BPD agent's private view. As JR moved through the crime-scene landscape his view kept changing, his prior assumptions were not being validated, e.g. eventually he had to find JonBenet.

Then as the case unfolds he latches onto Lou Smit's Intruder Theory and flies with that, as in distinction to his initial attempt to frame LHP and the White's.

.

 

[Userid]

^ I suppose he knew about ransom note. I'm not certain, but I lean toward him knowing. For all we know, he was busy staging in the cellar and PR was busy with the ransom note; both authoring it and putting the pads/pen back in place. We don't know for certain.

We also don't know that it was him who "moved the pads." I feel like he would have been busy with the staging in the cellar. It would have been PR who was in charge of the note and the placement of the pads. I know they both were in the cellar at one point, but I believe that PR wasn't around for the majority of the cellar staging.

Yes, he eventually had to "find" JBR (instead of disposing of the body somewhere) because the noose was tightening around him. He buckled in the presence of FW and he buckled when asked to provide the writing samples.

 

[UKGuy]

^ I suppose he knew about ransom note. I'm not certain, but I lean toward him knowing. For all we know, he was busy staging in the cellar and PR was busy with the ransom note; both authoring it and putting the pads/pen back in place. We don't know for certain.

We also don't know that it was him who "moved the pads." I feel like he would have been busy with the staging in the cellar. It would have been PR who was in charge of the note and the placement of the pads. I know they both were in the cellar at one point, but I believe that PR wasn't around for the majority of the cellar staging.

Yes, he eventually had to "find" JBR (instead of disposing of the body somewhere) because the noose was tightening around him. He buckled in the presence of FW and he buckled when asked to provide the writing samples.

Userid,
PR could have moved the pads, as could any of the helpers, cleaning products were on that table also. Yet JR knew where to look for the pads, so maybe it was him who moved them.

JR definitely had a plan, an agenda, he kept finding stuff, making pointed remarks, etc. His own words on the 'pad' subject make him suspect.

JR was certainly not advancing, gratis, any information he held regarding the use of Patsy's pad to author the RN, that is until asked for a writing example!

.

 

[Userid]

^ Fair enough that anyone could have moved the pads and that JR knew where to find them (if, and to me, it's still a big "if," they indeed were moved).

 

[singularity]

^ Yeah, it really is. I can't really see why he would move the pads (assuming to a much more secluded/hidden location), only to relinquish them to police anyway. That's why I believe they were handed over sometime between when he took the photograph and when the police took the photograph (of the glass table).

Also, if he moved the pads, why bother staging them on the glass table in the first place?

I believe that the notes were laid there purposefully, but only to mask the fact that one was used to write the note. If the pad was left were the note was actually written -- and left unfurled to the exact page the note was ripped out -- it would have been obvious that it was used. The new question is, where was the ransom note actually written? I used to believe it was written in the living room table (where the pineapple was found) -- that's still a possibility, but I also believe it could have been written in the R's bedroom.

She could've written it with the pad on her lap.

Even if getting the case of the moving pads out of the way, there's still the moving scarves, cleaner, and bags to be dealt with.

It will forever be an outrage that this house wasn't locked down immediately.

^ I suppose he knew about ransom note. I'm not certain, but I lean toward him knowing. For all we know, he was busy staging in the cellar and PR was busy with the ransom note; both authoring it and putting the pads/pen back in place.

We also don't know that it was him who "moved the pads." I feel like he would have been busy with the staging in the cellar. It would have been PR who was in charge of the note and the placement of the pads. I know they both were in the cellar at one point, but I believe that PR wasn't around for the majority of the cellar staging.

THis is what I believe as well. They weren't working together on specific items. Patsy had a poop load of things to get done and so did John. I think most of his involvement happened the next morning/afternoon.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Ah, that’s the point. Stir the pot. Confuse the scene. Who’s on first so to speak. They called somebody that night. Somebody with the power to make the R’s December phone records disappear. Who, told them what to do? Lockheed’s Crisis management? I imagine they were JR’s first call. It would have been protocol. My brother worked for Lockheed-Martin in California at the time. He called BS on an intruder from day one as they were not put on alert and they would have been, every Lockheed would have been. Someone helped then cover up. What better way than to confuse the scene. Who’s on first? Enter MB, also a Lockheed Martin employee. Lockheed Martin and GE had a multibillion dollar deal in the works which included the sale of Access Graphics amongst other things. MOO, LM would have been JRs first call. Let us not forget the other two Lockheed-Martin, lawyers on JRs defense team.

Confuse the scene. Point fingers everywhere. Call friends and police. Move things about, etc...

Abbott: Nicknames, nicknames. Now, on the St. Louis team we have Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third--

Costello: That's what I want to find out. I want you to tell me the names of the fellows on the St. Louis team.

Abbott: I'm telling you. Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third--

 

[fr brown]

I think that the "CSI note" that Kolar has referred to can be attributed to Holly Smith, who in an interview with Fox 31 mentioned a red satin candy box with a "secret" stash of candy. She then talked about most of JonBenet's underwear being stained by feces. If a candy box has a secret stash of candy, it's probably in a drawer.

It seems at least possible that Kolar conflated these two things and came up with a "feces-smeared candy box."

 

[UKGuy]

I think that the "CSI note" that Kolar has referred to can be attributed to Holly Smith, who in an interview with Fox 31 mentioned a red satin candy box with a "secret" stash of candy. She then talked about most of JonBenet's underwear being stained by feces. If a candy box has a secret stash of candy, it's probably in a drawer.

It seems at least possible that Kolar conflated these two things and came up with a "feces-smeared candy box."

fr brown,
Well this will be resolved one day as Holly Smith will no doubt be interviewed on camera.

Did Kolar conflate, maybe he did, what about the fecal stained pajama bottoms, alleged to be Burke's again a possible conflation?

There is a neat list of coincidences that might just be that, but this is a homicide case not 64,000 Dollar Question or Jeorapdy, so that JonBenet was wearing Burke's longjohns, and Patsy's nieces size-12-underwear, and had previously worn Burke's pajama bottoms, seems like stretching credulity a bit?

Given the scrutiny Kolar knew he would be under I doubt he would conflate, any mistakes he made could be used against him in litigation.

.

 

[apabld]

Just wanted to ask: what do we know about Burke's relationship with JB? Did they get along well? Were there any other incidents similar to the golf club one? I remember reading somewhere that JB would sometimes sleep in Burke's room - which would suggest they got along fine - though I'm not sure if this is fact or not.

 

[Swirlz]

From JonBenet's medical records:

10/5/94: Came in for checkup, doctor notices scar on left cheek. She'd been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week after the accident, a plastic surgeon was consulted. No injury to cheekbone. Beuf is told (at this visit) that she's getting along with brothers and older sister. Wearing pullups at night because she's wetting bed. Patsy completes developmental questionnaire, and says there are no aspects of JonBenet's behavior or sex education she needed to discuss, and also notes JBR has no fears or phobias.

 

[apabld]

While the BDI theory has become more convincing to me over the years, there are still a few things that stop me from being certain that BDI.

1. Burke was sent away the morning of December 26. I suppose you could argue that if Burke did it, his parents would be disgusted at him and would not want to see or talk to him. However, I still feel that if your child had killed their sibling, you would protect them at all costs and would not send them away - where they could spill information to anyone.

2. John and Patsy allowed Burke to be formally interviewed (by Dr. Bernhard) just a few weeks after the murder, without a lawyer present. They had to be dead certain Burke would not buckle under the pressure of questioning. There are certain segments of the interview that seem suspicious, but Burke seemed to be open to answering most of the questions. Also, Bernhard concluded that Burke was not involved.

3. The Grand Jury indictment of Patsy and John mentions that they aided someone who was accused of first degree murder. Burke was under 10 at the time of the JB's death, and could not be accused of this type of crime.

For those that believe BDI, are there still aspects of the case that make you uncertain?