Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[nwmouse]

This might be a really stupid idea, but is it possible the DNA they claimed to have ended up not being human DNA? Wouldn't a coyote or deer sniffing one of the bodies leave DNA? Or what if BG had a dog? Dog or cat DNA could be matched to a perp's pet, right?

IMO, LE would not have mentioned DNA if it was from an animal.

Its been speculated that in the photo of BG, he was carrying a dog or a baby goat under his jacket but I can't see it and its not been verified by LE.

I'm pretty sure LE have a small amount of human DNA but it has not led to an arrest at this time.

MOO

 

[Jethro4WS]

Sorry, I’m missing your point. What purpose would it serve to establish a cellphone user was in Delphi if he also lived and worked there?

My point is that there are more than two towers that cell phones in the area would reach. You made a reference to mappings on earlier threads showing only two cell towers. I am only pointing out that there are more than two. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[TL4S]

IMO, LE would not have mentioned DNA if it was from an animal.

Its been speculated that in the photo of BG, he was carrying a dog or a baby goat under his jacket but I can't see it and its not been verified by LE.

I'm pretty sure LE have a small amount of DNA but it has not led to an arrest at this time.

MOO

Yeah, I see no goat.

I wasn't sure how long after they gathered evidence they announced DNA.

 

[MistyWaters]

I bet they could.

There are so many ways to track people even if you don’t have a specific person to track. You’ve got phones, vehicle registration, your insurance tracking device, and location data from various sources. The answer is out there somewhere IMO.

The amount of info LE would have to deal with from all these sources takes time to review and process which is why I think this is taking as long as it is. Tower dump info is going to be a lot if you are looking at a 5 hour period. If they don’t have a tag and just a vehicle description that’s a lot of tracking down cars. If somehow they can get gps info that’s got to be a lot too. Add the 42,000 tips sent in and all of the follow up with those. Plus, they were working other cases before, during and after this case. They’ve got their hands full and even with assistance from other agencies it’s a lot of info to deal with.

They very well could have a pretty good POI from all of their work, but someone is covering for them. All JMO

The FBI has provided technical assistance and expertise for this investigation from the onset. Homeland security has been mentioned once or twice and iirc also that 20 different agencies have been involved. Otherwise, I agree, the local police department would be in way over their heads if this investigation wasn’t heavily supported by other partners.

 

[Cutiekitty]

If LE was able to trace a cellphone to the trail, they’d also have enough information to also know who was the service provider. They’d be able to obtain a name and address and a treasure trove of historical information including other calls to friends, relatives, employer etc.

Had they been able to successfully do so, I don’t think they still be holding PCs asking for that “one tip”, starting in a new direction more than two years later.

I don’t know that they could place him right on the trail during the time with cell phone tracing. Just the vicinity. If he had a pay as you go or burner phone it would be difficult, but not impossible to ID him. They are a heck of a lot cheaper than plans from a carrier and I think it’s highly probable that he does have a “burner”. LE is going to have to go through a ton of information to narrow it down. Then say he did have a burner phone they are going to have to try to ID him (like you said - call activity). Say they do ID him, they now have to put the phone in his hand. Someone seeing him and/or his car with him near by would do that. It’s all totally possible, but extremely time consuming.

 

[MistyWaters]

My point is that there are more than two towers that cell phones in the area would reach. You made a reference to mappings on earlier threads showing only two cell towers. I am only pointing out that there are more than two. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Thanks for clarifying. The radius of older type cell towers iirc was about 5 miles. There’s an earlier post on this thread linking prior discussions about cell tower availability in 2017 which is probably worth reviewing as this definitely is not the first time the topic has been discussed here.

 

[tresir2012]

Jmo the couple under the bridge is a rumor, I think.

To me, DNA and sexual assault stand out as two topics LE has refused to speak clearly about...which in my brain, links them. Could be wrong but this crime fits sexual assault as a motive in every way to me. Jmo

The couple under the bridge has been referenced by two witnesses from two sources AFAIK. One was MSM and one was a GH video - both allowedsources.

 

[JDough]

SABBMFF:

Interviewer: The sketch, and to be clear, and you did clarify this after, in case folks didn't hear it, you don't want them to look at both sketches anymore. You only want them to look at the newly-released sketch, correct?

DC: That's correct, but remember, the sketch is not a photograph. It's something similar to a resemblance. And the likelihood of this being something between the two, is probably pretty strong. But again, that's a subjective opinion, based on what I believe.

Okay.

LE does not want the public to look at both sketches any more.
Focus on Sketch #2.

Got it.

But DC thinks there's a pretty strong likelihood that BG's appearance is something "between the two."

Got it.

Wait.
Hold up.

Between the 2 whats, exactly?

Is he talking about the 2 Sketches?

Because, if so, why would LE tell the public to disregard Sketch #1 and to focus solely on Sketch #2, if there's a strong likelihood that BG's actual appearance is some kind of amalgamation of 1 and 2 combined?

I really wish the interviewer had clarified what DC meant by "this being something between the two."


JMO.

This is all so confusing, isn't it? My assumption the first time I heard this statement was that the perpetrator's likenesses is somewhere between an actual photograph and the sketch?

 

[MistyWaters]

I don’t know that they could place him right on the trail during the time with cell phone tracing. Just the vicinity. If he had a pay as you go or burner phone it would be difficult, but not impossible to ID him. They are a heck of a lot cheaper than plans from a carrier and I think it’s highly probable that he does have a “burner”. LE is going to have to go through a ton of information to narrow it down. Then say he did have a burner phone they are going to have to try to ID him (like you said - call activity). Say they do ID him, they now have to put the phone in his hand. Someone seeing him and/or his car with him near by would do that. It’s all totally possible, but extremely time consuming.

And no guarantee of success. If this was attempted, I’d expect it was already done early on as the retention periods are not indefinite.

Cellular Provider Record Retention Periods

 

[Cutiekitty]

The FBI has provided technical assistance and expertise for this investigation from the onset. Homeland security has been mentioned once or twice and iirc also that 20 different agencies have been involved. Otherwise, I agree, the local police department would be in way over their heads if this investigation wasn’t heavily supported by other partners.

Even with all of that assistance it’s a lot to go through. Initially I imagine there was a ton of personnel, but it takes time to gather all of this info and as the case has stayed open the other agencies would probably have to pull back resources. All of those agencies cant reassign personnel indefinitely. There were cases before, during and after this case.

 

[Charlot123]

If he lives or works there it could show where he was in Delphi that day. I don’t think it’s going to be the info that cracks the case, but the presence or absence of cellular data could help it. What if a spouse or parent was trying to get ahold of him, but his phone was turned off (hope not) during the crime and that is unusual? If he works there maybe didn’t show up and his phone was hitting towers in Delphi? I feel like LE uncovered an issue with a previous alibi and maybe the phone stuff supports that somehow.

What if it could show his phone was next to Libby’s at a certain point?

 

[Cutiekitty]

And no guarantee of success. If this was attempted, I’d expect it was already done early on as the retention periods are not indefinite.

Cellular Provider Record Retention Periods

Im sure they did it right away. That doesn’t mean they received the info right away. This is not the only case carriers are receiving requests for and I don’t think they could claim exigent circumstances. In an early PC they even said there was no immediate threat to the community.

 

[tresir2012]

Just googled triangulation and it looks like they have to have 2-3 towers and the area of overlap is the approximate location. Almost all of the articles I looked at said it’s accurate within 3/4 of a square mile. Pretty cool.

Yes, I'm no expert but the minimum of two towers plus phone would make a triangle so I think that is how it works. If there was only one tower then the phone would appear to move within that tower's radius I am guessing.

 

[MizStery]

There's even a chance that the DNA wasn't on the girls at all, but on something nearby-something that BG dropped or accidentally left behind. That would certainly make things complicated because LE would need to be certain that the DNA belonged to BG and not someone else.

From the moment I read the details of Libby and Abby’s horrific murders;I had a sick feeling the soulless guilty perp responsible participated in their search from very early on.

BG might not be a sophisticated killer quite yet. But I thought he would maneuver to get as close to the CS as possible. I could see him dropping an item while searching to ensure his DNA could be accounted for.

Please feel free to add any thoughts you have on the subject.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

I realize LE likely announced DNA after confirming it was human, but this is still interesting...

DNA Cited in Westerfield Trial

 

[HockeyMom330]

If LE was able to trace a cellphone to the trail, they’d also have enough information to also know who was the service provider. They’d be able to obtain a name and address and a treasure trove of historical information including other calls to friends, relatives, employer etc.

Had they been able to successfully do so, I don’t think they still be holding PCs asking for that “one tip”, starting in a new direction more than two years later.

BBM

So LE has received more than 42000 tips since the muders, but are still asking for that "one tip" that will lead to an arrest.

-They may have some DNA from the bodies or crime scene (but obviously no match in CODIS).
-They removed things (such as leaves) from the crime scene which may be evidence.
-They may have footprints leading to/from the bodies.
-They have a video recording of BG walking on the bridge.
-They have an audio recording of BG's voice.
-They may have the entire crime recorded on Libby's phone (in audio or video or both), or at least enough of it to get a sense of the flow of the crime.
-They know COD based on the autopsy and CSI.
-They know if one or both of the girls were SA based on autopsy/CSI.
-They know TOD based on the autopsy/CSI.
-They should know what type, if any, weapon was used in the attack based on the audio/video as well as autopsy and CSI.
-LE know the timeline of the crime based on KG's report of when/where she dropped the girls off, the 2:07pm SnapChat photo of Libby on the bridge, and the girls failure to respond to DG's messages starting at 3:11pm.
-LE have a witness that 'reported something that needed to be reported'.
-LE made a sketch of BG within 3 days of the murders that is now giving a more accurate face to this crime.
-LE have awareness of a vehicle parked at the CPS building that may be linked to BG, and may even know the make, model, colour and registered owner(s) of said vehicle.
-LE have established (through profiling and/or investigation) that BG is local/has ties to Delphi.
-LE have investigated the girls social media accounts.
-LE have investigated and ruled out local RSOs and other POIs such as DN.

It seems like they have so much, yet so little all at the same time. Short of a confession or someone calling in to report that they lied about an alibi, what could the "one tip" be that they are looking for?

 

[MassGuy]

BBM

So LE has received more than 42000 tips since the muders, but are still asking for that "one tip" that will lead to an arrest.

-They may have some DNA from the bodies or crime scene (but obviously no match in CODIS).
-They removed things (such as leaves) from the crime scene which may be evidence.
-They may have footprints leading to/from the bodies.
-They have a video recording of BG walking on the bridge.
-They have an audio recording of BG's voice.
-They may have the entire crime recorded on Libby's phone (in audio or video or both), or at least enough of it to get a sense of the flow of the crime.
-They know COD based on the autopsy and CSI.
-They know if one or both of the girls were SA based on autopsy/CSI.
-They know TOD based on the autopsy/CSI.
-They should know what type, if any, weapon was used in the attack based on the audio/video as well as autopsy and CSI.
-LE know the timeline of the crime based on KG's report of when/where she dropped the girls off, the 2:07pm SnapChat photo of Libby on the bridge, and the girls failure to respond to DG's messages starting at 3:11pm.
-LE have a witness that 'reported something that needed to be reported'.
-LE made a sketch of BG within 3 days of the murders that is now giving a more accurate face to this crime.
-LE have awareness of a vehicle parked at the CPS building that may be linked to BG, and may even know the make, model, colour and registered owner(s) of said vehicle.
-LE have established (through profiling and/or investigation) that BG is local/has ties to Delphi.
-LE have investigated the girls social media accounts.
-LE have investigated and ruled out local RSOs and other POIs such as DN.

It seems like they have so much, yet so little all at the same time. Short of a confession or someone calling in to report that they lied about an alibi, what could the "one tip" be that they are looking for?

All the things you listed, clearly aren’t pointing them towards a specific person.

It’s hard to solve a case when the perpetrator isn’t known to the victims.

That “one tip,” is something that identifies a suspect.

“My neighbor Bob looks just like the sketch, and he began acting strangely when you held that press conference.”

Something like that.

 

[TL4S]

All the things you listed, clearly aren’t pointing them towards a specific person.

It’s hard to solve a case when the perpetrator isn’t known to the victims.

That “one tip,” is something that identifies a suspect.

“My neighbor Bob looks just like the sketch, and he began acting strangely when you held that press conference.”

Something like that.

And when that "one tip" leads them to the right person, all this evidence will work to confirm it, hopefully.

 

[MassGuy]

And when that "one tip" leads them to the right person, all this evidence will work to confirm it, hopefully.

Exactly. If it doesn’t lead them to their guy, it will help to put him away once he’s identified.

 

[MistyWaters]

BBM

So LE has received more than 42000 tips since the muders, but are still asking for that "one tip" that will lead to an arrest.

-They may have some DNA from the bodies or crime scene (but obviously no match in CODIS).
-They removed things (such as leaves) from the crime scene which may be evidence.
-They may have footprints leading to/from the bodies.
-They have a video recording of BG walking on the bridge.
-They have an audio recording of BG's voice.
-They may have the entire crime recorded on Libby's phone (in audio or video or both), or at least enough of it to get a sense of the flow of the crime.
-They know COD based on the autopsy and CSI.
-They know if one or both of the girls were SA based on autopsy/CSI.
-They know TOD based on the autopsy/CSI.
-They should know what type, if any, weapon was used in the attack based on the audio/video as well as autopsy and CSI.
-LE know the timeline of the crime based on KG's report of when/where she dropped the girls off, the 2:07pm SnapChat photo of Libby on the bridge, and the girls failure to respond to DG's messages starting at 3:11pm.
-LE have a witness that 'reported something that needed to be reported'.
-LE made a sketch of BG within 3 days of the murders that is now giving a more accurate face to this crime.
-LE have awareness of a vehicle parked at the CPS building that may be linked to BG, and may even know the make, model, colour and registered owner(s) of said vehicle.
-LE have established (through profiling and/or investigation) that BG is local/has ties to Delphi.
-LE have investigated the girls social media accounts.
-LE have investigated and ruled out local RSOs and other POIs such as DN.

It seems like they have so much, yet so little all at the same time. Short of a confession or someone calling in to report that they lied about an alibi, what could the "one tip" be that they are looking for?

That’s quite the list, Well done!

Trivia - guess the date
“One tip could be the one clue investigators need to catch whoever killed Abby Williams and Libby German....”Someone knows that voice. Someone knows that picture,”...”
Delphi call center fielding more than 1,000 tips related to Indiana murder investigation

A: Feb 23, 2017