Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #104

[mtnlites]

I’ve found a few tools that might help end some the speculation about water flows, outside temperature, etc. Hopefully people will find this useful.

Like most states, Indiana has water gauges that measure the flow (in cubic feet’s per second) in virtually every watershed in the state. Fortunately, they have a gauge in deer creek near Delphi. I’ll find out exactly where. This is a government site so it should be OK to post. People can play with the date ranges and access the raw and data here... USGS Current Conditions for USGS 03329700 DEER CREEK NEAR DELPHI, IN

View attachment 186898


It looks like the flows were between 700 - 800 CFC, which as an avid fisherman is pretty decent volume. Crossing could be tough.

It also shows the gauge height below. Obviously it depends exactly where the gauge is located, but 3.5 to 4 ft is nothing to scoff at and easily cross.

View attachment 186898

Given this, how sure are we they crossed the river?

In addition, somebody else on YouTube found a very interesting thing about the company doing the building at the Indiana meat packers plant at the time of the murders. They had a live webcam going and have archived everything on their site. This webcam was less than 2 miles from the bridge. It shows the exact weather throughout the day and other interesting tidbits. It is creepy to watch it and know that just out of site of the camera such horrific events were occurring. There might be some interesting investigative things we could learn here. You can filter to the exact day and see the recordings.

Webcam – Indiana Packers – Delphi, IN – Tippmann Group / Interstate Warehousing

All MOO

Short answer: we have no idea if they crossed the creek. We only know that they somehow ended up on the other side. While it would've been difficult crossing it at certain places, it was slightly easier crossing where they were found.

 

[Charlot123]

My apologies. I didn't mean to imply those things were said in the PC, but DC did make the statement about "we're going to find we were onto something early on," during another interview on Wish. Obviously, I misquoted the other one (sorry), but it certainly implied they were told something and they believed it. Whether or not it was true would be the question. Elsewhere it was also mentioned that some of the alibis were less than truthful. Did they sort all that out 2 years ago, or do they have to back track?

I think they had to backtrack. They believed someone's alibi, and then the person who was their main suspect was exonerated (I don't know how - maybe it was DNA?). And they suddenly realized their mistake two years ago. Someone lied to them, and they are not happy at all now.

 

[mtnlites]

Btw, it looks like the water gauge I mentioned above is actually a little upstream of the bridge, and there are 1 or 2 tributaries flowing in after the gauge, so the flows should be even higher. Not sure it helps much other than provides more questions than answers...

Somewhere around here I made a post about what it's like walking across the creek at certain times of the year/water levels. Water depth can vary significantly. You can cross at Point A and have it almost up to your waist, but then walk down 15 feet to Point B and have it just hitting your knees. There are lots of sandbars.

 

[Charlot123]

I remember this story breaking a couple of years ago, and it kills me that is still unsolved, even though the girls had the wits about them to capture this guy on video.

It made my stomach drop when I saw it was still posted on here without an arrest after all this time. I remain hopeful with all the evidence that has been released and the rest of it that is still under lock and key that this ahole will eventually be caught.

I know... I hope that the families don't lose hope.

And I hope they have DNA of the evil monster. And I hope they will nail him.

 

[mtnlites]

I always wondered how she was able to be so surreptitious with her phone.

As someone who loves to take candid photos of weird things I see, including people, I have perfected the art of ninja-photography. She could have: flipped the camera around, held the phone in the palm of her hand, and let her arm fall down to her side (which could be why the video is so shaky); or held her phone out in front of her and flipped the camera around, pretending to take a picture of something in front of her when she was really videotaping behind her; or turned around and faced him with the phone in her hand, her fingers covering everything but the viewfinder...Or he may have been looking down at the bridge so closely that he simply did not noticed it at all.

 

[raja]

On the audio I here a definite stop between “guys” and the mumble then immediately down the hill with mumble. I think the audio was intentional stoped and then resumed. I think the audio we here starts some seconds after the video. I think possibly her phone was on mute. I think she possibly lost or threw her phone at some point. BG may not have wanted to cross the creek after the murders to retrieve it. He may not have even known where the phone was. I think after the murders he wanted out of the park ASAP and left via the cemetery. “He made mistakes” and leaving that phone was one.
All MOO

 

[Rosegold68]

where was the phone actually found? do we know?

one of the youtube re enactment type videos shows the hill....going down is certainly not easy and would need a decent level of fitness to propel 2 unwilling teens down it, across woodland, through a creek which could be fairly deep in places and then up a steep bank....it all looks so difficult. guy on the bridge would need to be fit!

 

[HockeyMom330]

This is what concerns me:

"Somebody knows whose body that is, Scott, somebody knows. If you take a head off of a person that you know, you'll recognize the body, whether that be your dad, your brother, uncle, your friend, your neighbour, your coworker. That's the piece we're waiting on."

They may be waiting a long time if someone already gave them the tip they needed.

ISP superintendent provides update on Delphi double murder investigation

Unfortunately, in two plus years no one, has come forward to identify that "body" and if they have, someone ignored the info. Releasing a short video clip now of him walking one step doesn't appear to be helping.

If LE are so certain that SOMEONE knows who this is, what makes them think that individual is going to come forward now when they haven't in two plus years? Maybe they have given an anonymous tip already, maybe more than one, and that's all they are willing to do for whatever reason. Carter commented that it takes "human intelligence" as well. It sure does in more than one way. JMO

BBM

Maybe someone did recognize the body/clothing style earlier on but the face of OBG (and age range) did not match the body, so they doubted their hunch and failed to report their suspicion. Now with a supposedly more accurate and much younger looking face for BG, maybe that person will feel more confident to give a tip if the person they have in mind is a good match for both face and body.

 

[x_files]

About his maternal grandfather. "In 1987, however, he and other family members told attorneys that Samuel Cowell was a tyrannical bully and a bigot who hated blacks, Italians, Catholics, and Jews, beat his wife and the family dog, and swung neighborhood cats by their tails. He once threw Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping. He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences, and at least once flew into a violent rage when the question of Bundy's paternity was raised." So, at least this was not his fault.

Bundy went way above and beyond any *advertiser censored*. "He decapitated at least 12 victims and kept some of the severed heads as mementos in his apartment.". This is somewhat above and beyond what *advertiser censored* magazines and even movies would offer, I assume.

However, because he had high IQ, he could have been used to help catch other serial killers. In fact, he did give a sound advise about the Green River Killer, saying that GRK probably had a habit of visiting the bodies of the killed victims. He advised the LE to wait for GRK next to the newest "dumping site", set up a trap. In hindsight, he was perfectly correct.

I think that in WA, UT or ORE, he would have not been executed. But the South is not playing games with rapists and killers of children, and Bundy's youngest victim was only 12 years of age.

His grandfather sounded a mean SOB. Yelling at unseen things. yikes! No wonder Bundy is a psychopath.
I really wish they could test his DNA for his paternity and end that mystery for once for all. I hope they kept DNA samples from him.
Again I wish he had an FBI agent profile BG.

 

[FleurQualia]

As someone who loves to take candid photos of weird things I see, including people, I have perfected the art of ninja-photography. She could have: flipped the camera around, held the phone in the palm of her hand, and let her arm fall down to her side (which could be why the video is so shaky); or held her phone out in front of her and flipped the camera around, pretending to take a picture of something in front of her when she was really videotaping behind her; or turned around and faced him with the phone in her hand, her fingers covering everything but the viewfinder...Or he may have been looking down at the bridge so closely that he simply did not noticed it at all.

It always amazes me how smart the girls were i.e. the video. I mean, I am 30, and it would never have crossed my mind to do something like that, and I consider myself pretty world-weary.

Unfortunately their quick thinking has still failed to produce an arrest. It drives me nuts.

 

[Moonracer]

No DNA in urine is there?

Someone probably already answered - urine could carry cells sloughed from the lining of ureters, urethra or bladder. Pure urine, no DNA, but shed cells quite possible.

 

[Wells]

This is what concerns me:

"Somebody knows whose body that is, Scott, somebody knows. If you take a head off of a person that you know, you'll recognize the body, whether that be your dad, your brother, uncle, your friend, your neighbour, your coworker. That's the piece we're waiting on."

They may be waiting a long time if someone already gave them the tip they needed.

ISP superintendent provides update on Delphi double murder investigation

Unfortunately, in two plus years no one, has come forward to identify that "body" and if they have, someone ignored the info. Releasing a short video clip now of him walking one step doesn't appear to be helping.

If LE are so certain that SOMEONE knows who this is, what makes them think that individual is going to come forward now when they haven't in two plus years? Maybe they have given an anonymous tip already, maybe more than one, and that's all they are willing to do for whatever reason. Carter commented that it takes "human intelligence" as well. It sure does in more than one way. JMO

Interesting what Carter omits. No mention whether that might be your husband or your boyfriend. Might mean nothing. Might mean something.

 

[Boxer]

Respectfully SABBM

They never crossed a River.....

If they crossed anything it was Deer Creek totally different than a river

Both in water depth, width and current

JMO

MOO creek quite deep and swift where banks close in and form a V bed, yet where Deer creek flattens out it creates many twined rivulets between above water sand and gravel bar deposits. A fording place.
MOO at the flat place east of
bridge involved a few steps in 6 inches of water between the above water sand bars.

His grandfather sounded a mean SOB. Yelling at unseen things. yikes! No wonder Bundy is a psychopath.
I really wish they could test his DNA for his paternity and end that mystery for once for all. I hope they kept DNA samples from him.
Again I wish he had an FBI agent profile BG.

MOO many people have awful childhoods, yet they commit to doing no harm. It is the killer himself who let himself slip into violent entitlement.

 

[Brubon]

Perhaps YBG used vulgar language in an imperative sentence ordering the girls "down the hill." The ellipses may have been used by LE to refrain from upsetting the general public with swear words. MOO
Peace be with Abby and Libby.

 

[MassGuy]

BBM

Maybe someone did recognize the body/clothing style earlier on but the face of OBG (and age range) did not match the body, so they doubted their hunch and failed to report their suspicion. Now with a supposedly more accurate and much younger looking face for BG, maybe that person will feel more confident to give a tip if the person they have in mind is a good match for both face and body.

The issue with this, is that the sketch was released 5 months after the murders.

The still from the video on the other hand, was released just days after the murders.

So people had the image of BG in his clothing, right from the get-go.

They wouldn’t have been thrown off by the sketch that didn’t match.

 

[mtnlites]

I think the blame lies with the monster who killed these 2 junior high age girls- not with the parents
Moo

Only one person is responsible for this and, as you said, it's the monster who killed two teenage girls. I would have no problem taking my teenager to the park like that and picking them up later. No problem. The girls had a ride there, a time in which they were meant to return, a cell phone, and a ride home.

 

[MDATCA]

Somewhere around here I made a post about what it's like walking across the creek at certain times of the year/water levels. Water depth can vary significantly. You can cross at Point A and have it almost up to your waist, but then walk down 15 feet to Point B and have it just hitting your knees. There are lots of sandbars.

Do the sandbar areas change a bit after the winter thaw or flooding? I know many creeks tend to shift with the flow of the water and erosion.

Imo if they do then it leads me to think he had already checked out the creek in case an opportunity arose.

 

[Andreee]

To be fair to the caregivers, they we 13 and 14, not 5. Also, they were together.

I used to wonder around with my friends unsupervised from about 12 onward. And I am not that old (it wasn't back in the golden days, kwim?)

And I suspect Delphi is a small town where most people know of one another, and which people typically feel safe.

I agree. I don't know if this type of crime had happened in Delphi before, probably, but the poor parents and siblings have suffered enough from the murders. If a person wanted to blame them, I'm thinking they most likely already have blamed themselves over and over again already. In fact, one of the siblings has mentioned this on twitter. IMO what more punishment for misplaced feelings of neglect could they have than losing their children? The only person to blame in this senseless act of violence is the murderer himself. It is easy to sit back here and judge the caregivers, but these were young teens. This is not a case of neglect.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Or he may have been looking down at the bridge so closely that he simply did not noticed it at all.

Quoted snipped & BBM.

I believe that this is the case.

He was over 60 feet in the air walking on a bridge with rotting planks, some of which (I believe) were missing. Even if he had walked that bridge before (and I think he had) he still needed to take care not to misstep (I wish he had!)

After he started walking on the bridge, I don't think he was focusing his attention on them to any significant degree until he got close enough to control them.

He likely wanted to make them feel at ease that he was on there (obviously he was WRONG because Libby clearly WASN'T at ease) and he probably did not look up at them too much (unless he kept his head down but rolled his eyes up discreetly.)

JMO

 

[mtnlites]

This sort of thing almost never happens.

These girls were far more likely to have been killed on the car ride there, as opposed to becoming the victims of homicide.

The data doesn’t lie.

Statistically,as teenagers they were more likely to die due to a car wreck, suicide, the flu, an accident, or drugs. Motor vehicle fatality is the leading cause of death to teenagers, and yet most ride in a car every day.