Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #17 *ARREST*

[Miss_French]

I take it you don't need glasses yourself? They are just a necessity for many people, I'm afraid.

Exactly. He may not need them if it's a brief appearance to confirm a few details, but a different matter if he's got to sit at the desk and maybe read any notes from his defence. He might not have even thought about taking his glasses with him, or thought he may not have needed them, but finds they make it clearer for walking/looking around.

 

[Miss_French]

Look at what the family of Milly Dowler went through. Absolute torture at the hands of Bellfield's solicitor. Every teenage poem and ordinary teenage strop exaggerated and used against them to suggest she'd committed suicide. Destroying their memory of her.

Bellfield was undoubtedly entitled to a fair trial and possibly that defence but not in the way it was carried out.

If he defends himself by making claims about Libby that will have to be used.

Actually the defence counsel has a duty to carry out the defendant's instructions and to not do so can result in a mistrial. What Jeffrey Samuels used was the material provided by the prosection that included the police questioning of Robert Dowler who was initially a suspect due to Millie finding his *advertiser censored* collection. The defence didn't lie, an alternative narrative was used. It was the judge who agreed to this evidence being used in court, and rejected reporting restrictions being placed on this part of the trial; he also would have been monitoring the line of questioning and was within his rights to have stopped it if he wasn't happy with it.

 

[Newthoughts]

Actually the defence counsel has a duty to carry out the defendant's instructions and to not do so can result in a mistrial. What Jeffrey Samuels used was the material provided by the prosection that included the police questioning of Robert Dowler who was initially a suspect due to Millie finding his *advertiser censored* collection. The defence didn't lie, an alternative narrative was used. It was the judge who agreed to this evidence being used in court, and rejected reporting restrictions being placed on this part of the trial; he also would have been monitoring the line of questioning and was within his rights to have stopped it if he wasn't happy with it.

An alternative narrative? What exactly is that if not a euphemism for a lie. Robert Dowler didn't harm his daughter. He wasn't on trial. Nor was her mother or their parenting.

It is absolutely right And proper that PR gets a fair trial. If he is guilty as charged that will rest on 'alternative narratives' of the nights events. His defence will no doubt frame those alternative narratives for him and Libby's parents will have to listen. That is the defence counsels job. Framing alternative narratives

As for Bellfield's trial - Robert Dowler and that alternative narrative had long since been rejected. Nobody had raised any concerns about Milly's mental health. The defence only had to prove that Bellfield didn't kill her not who did or how. Bellfield was already serving life for brutal murders. Those alternative narratives were not remotely relevevant

Neither were any of the mistakes made in the original investigation relevant. Nor was much of the stuff used initially such as her diaries. They were relevant only to funding her initially. The judge should have stopped that line of questioning IMO. It was torture.

Fair trial also applies to victims. They need respect too.

 

[Miss_French]

An alternative narrative? What exactly is that if not a euphemism for a lie. Robert Dowler didn't harm his daughter. He wasn't on trial. Nor was her mother or their parenting.

It is absolutely right And proper that PR gets a fair trial. If he is guilty as charged that will rest on 'alternative narratives' of the nights events. His defence will no doubt frame those alternative narratives for him and Libby's parents will have to listen. That is the defence counsels job. Framing alternative narratives

As for Bellfield's trial - Robert Dowler and that alternative narrative had long since been rejected. Nobody had raised any concerns about Milly's mental health. The defence only had to prove that Bellfield didn't kill her not who did or how. Bellfield was already serving life for brutal murders. Those alternative narratives were not remotely relevevant

Neither were any of the mistakes made in the original investigation relevant. Nor was much of the stuff used initially such as her diaries. They were relevant only to funding her initially. The judge should have stopped that line of questioning IMO. It was torture.

Fair trial also applies to victims. They need respect too.

It's not a lie to ask "could x have happened instead of y?". If that is the instruction given by the defendent it has to be followed by the defense counsel and can be put to witnesses who have agreed to appear and have been prepared by the CPS as to the line of questioning that could be taken. The judge had his reasons for letting the Bellfield trial proceed as it did, which is why I mentioned the admission of particular evidence and the rejection of reporting restrictions.

 

[Cherwell]

Yep. Hence the use of the qualifying
statement "I know that's stupid and irrational" which you seem to have missed

I didn't miss it. You said "I know that's totally stupid and irrational but it just seems wrong." And that's what I responded to.

 

[JosieJo]

There cant ever be a presumption that in any case the CPS or us know the true version of events before trial
Any defendant is entitled to give their version of events and it is their counsels job to try and prove that version of events no matter how unpalatable that may to the victims family
The judge has the choice to not allow evidence if they feel it irrelevant
I think the point being made is it's the person charged who may be lying the defence qc has to defend them

 

[Via Marple]

FWIW I am always disgusted by dirty sexual offenders. The defendent is one. I don't care if he gets a parrot for a translator. That is my sense of justice and I am not apologising for it.

MOO

 

[Niner]

Anyone catch the "date" in March for his next hearing or was it not said? TIA! Just want to keep my notes straight!

 

[Amonet]

For @Niner

10:23
Further hearing
A further case management hearing will take place in March - a venue and date are to be fixed - before the trial judge, Mr Justice Goss.

10:18
Trial expected to last five weeks
They have asked for a trial date of June 2 2020 before Mr Justice Goss, a High Court judge.

The trial is expected to last five weeks.

Richard Wright QC will lead Mr Woolfall in prosecuting the case. Oliver Saxby QC will lead the defence.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

5 weeks seems a long trial for this case, doesn't it? One alleged killer, one victim. There must be a lot more evidence and statements to get through than we thought.

 

[Newthoughts]

I didn't miss it. You said "I know that's totally stupid and irrational but it just seems wrong." And that's what I responded to.

Yes and again the key word there is 'seems'

I wasn't saying I needed an explanation of what a translator does. I wasn't saying I thought it remotely important in the great scheme of things.

I was merely expressing an irrational visceral emotional response to a man serving 8.5 years for sexually motivated terrorising of women. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Niner]

Thank you Amonet!

Do you all want me to put this in my "notes"??

Richard Wright QC will lead Mr Woolfall in prosecuting the case. Oliver Saxby QC will lead the defence.

 

[Newthoughts]

5 weeks seems a long trial for this case, doesn't it? One alleged killer, one victim. There must be a lot more evidence and statements to get through than we thought.

I guess there will be a need for an interpreter for PR and possibly some witnesses if any of his colleagues, friends and acquaintances are called. That might hold things up.

Plus I'd imagine there will be complicated forensics to plough through. The police and CPS have said it's a complex case.

 

[Amonet]

Thank you Amonet!

Do you all want me to put this in my "notes"??

Richard Wright QC will lead Mr Woolfall in prosecuting the case. Oliver Saxby QC will lead the defence.

Not if you don't normally

But if you could note that the trial itself is expected to be held in Sheffield (not Hull) that would be very helpful. (This was noted in a post here a page or two back)

Thanks Niner!

 

[Niner]

Not if you don't normally

But if you could note that the trial itself is expected to be held in Sheffield (not Hull) that would be very helpful. (This was noted in a post here a page or two back)

Thanks Niner!

I do have Sheffield on my notes! I'll add it to the update for 10/31. Then people can reference back.

 

[jamjim]

I do have Sheffield on my notes! I'll add it to the update for 10/31. Then people can reference back.

Thank you @Niner!

 

[Newthoughts]

It's not a lie to ask "could x have happened instead of y?". If that is the instruction given by the defendent it has to be followed by the defense counsel and can be put to witnesses who have agreed to appear and have been prepared by the CPS as to the line of questioning that could be taken.

Snipped to respond

There is only one narrative and only PR knows what it is.

The job of the prosecution is to ascertain as closely as possibly what that narrative was or at least the criminal aspects of it. It's then to prove that criminal acts occurred beyond reasonable doubt. They shouldn't need to manufacture anything.

The job of defence is to introduce reasonable doubt. If PR is not guilty that shouldn't require any alternative narratives.

If he is guilty then he has to come up with alternative narratives that didn't happen.

At the start of this there were numerous possible scenarios. They appear to have narrowed with whatever evidence LE have gathered. That has narrowed PRs range of alternatives that could have happened because even Libby running away from him and falling into the river leads him open to manslaughter charges.

So what options does he have? Some of those will hurt her parents memory of her life? They won't be true alternatives.

That's our legal system. It is not perfect but it's all we've got.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

5 weeks seems a long trial for this case, doesn't it? One alleged killer, one victim. There must be a lot more evidence and statements to get through than we thought.

If he should plead guilty it will be over quick smart. That will save a lot of anguish for the family, not having to sit through gruesome details.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I thought that. He did that when he was sentenced last time too!

Control freak?

 

[Officer Dibble]

What a horrible date - it covers the period where Libby would have been getting her results and going to her graduation.

Instead of proudly hearing graduation speeches about going forward into the world to live her parents will have to listen to that.

That is a tough one