Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[gregjrichards]

I really do not think it is appropriate for any of us to make negative and/or insulting comments about extremely hard working and dedicated members of law enforcement on a public forum. It is highly likely that doing so goes against Websleuths terms of service.

 

[Imvp2]

Regarding the temperature, people should consider that the air temperature is not the only thing that affects how warm or cold people feel. If it was a sunny day in the low 40s, the radiant heat from the sun would have made people feel quite warm--possibly warm enough to doff their hats and jackets; if it was a cloudy, windy day in the low 40s, people would have felt considerably colder.
I mention those things because if it was cloudy and windy, then it wouldn't have been unusual for BG to be wearing both a jacket and hoodie. If it was sunny out and there was little wind, then BG's attire would suggest that he was trying to conceal his identity or his rape/murder kit.
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As far as revenge goes, I've considered that the girls could have been surrogates of some sort. Maybe BG wanted revenge against the Delphi community, against females in general, or against adolescent females in particular.
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I wish we knew whether the murders showed signs of rage. A rage killing of such young victims would point to a fairly young offender, probably someone in his late teens or early 20s, possibly a recent (2015 or 2016) graduate of the local high school. A cold, methodical killing might suggest an older, seasoned killer.

As I remember that day, it was bright and sunny, very warm for a February day. As soon as the first BG picture came out, my first thought was, he was over dressed for that time of day. Of course at sunrise and sunset, the temps were much different. MOO

 

[gregjrichards]

This case isn’t related to Abigail and Liberty’s I’m posting it as a shocking example of how different a real photo of a perp can look compared to a police sketch.

“Prosecutor slammed for using his 13-year-old daughter as BAIT to catch a man she said had molested her after he sent her back to the spot where she was allegedly attacked“

Prosecutor criticized for using 14-year-old daughter as bait to catch molester | Daily Mail Online



I’m shocked how different the police sketch in this case is so different to the real photo of the perp it makes me wonder how realistic the sketch in Abigail and Liberty’s case is.

 

[Nadal]

If we become personal.. why some announce that they leave and then return, seemingly to protect the reputation of the killer?

My opinion:
If LE knows but is not taking the case to court, we’ll have a future Dracula on our hands. Who will continue killing. Or might graduate, marry and have kids. Or set up a business. Or, if he is not in college, god forbid, get off his meds. Or move to any other neighborhood. Be our neighbor. Move out of the state.

This case will make him unwelcome in the country, in any house or city. It is safety for all of us.

How am i protecting the reputation of the killer? I want justice for the victims and bringing a case that will fail does not do that all it does is satisfies our curiosity, i'm good waiting until the person can be put away for the rest of their life like they deserve despite being curious myself obviously. Sorry for making it personal i should have left that part out it's just that comment really stuck in my gut which is the reason i posted here again. I left the threads because there's nothing new to talk about and we're going in circles or getting more out there, it's no one here's fault it's the nature of unsolved cases but it's frustrating. Plenty have left and rejoined these threads, obviously i did dramatically and i shouldn't have done so that was just my frustration with this not being solved appearing.

Taking him to court and not getting a conviction does not prevent any of those things, i get what you're saying but LE watching and leaning on him behind the scenes could potentially do that just as well while also preserving a possible future conviction. The public knowing Joran Van Der Sloot killed Natalee Holloway did nothing for Stephanie Florez, it actually may have been the cause of her death if you believe Joran's story. If you believe this guy is unstable i don't know why you'd want him out there free more paranoid than he is now, could push him towards massmurder/suicide for all we know.

 

[Charlot123]

How am i protecting the reputation of the killer? I want justice for the victims and bringing a case that will fail does not do that all it does is satisfies our curiosity, i'm good waiting until the person can be put away for the rest of their life like they deserve despite being curious myself obviously. Sorry for making it personal i should have left that part out it's just that comment really stuck in my gut which is the reason i posted here again. I left the threads because there's nothing new to talk about and we're going in circles or getting more out there, it's no one here's fault it's the nature of unsolved cases but it's frustrating. Plenty have left and rejoined these threads, obviously i did dramatically and i shouldn't have done so that was just my frustration with this not being solved appearing.

Taking him to court and not getting a conviction does not prevent any of those things, i get what you're saying but LE watching and leaning on him behind the scenes could potentially do that just as well while also preserving a possible future conviction. The public knowing Joran Van Der Sloot killed Natalee Holloway did nothing for Stephanie Florez, it actually may have been the cause of her death if you believe Joran's story. If you believe this guy is unstable i don't know why you'd want him out there free more paranoid than he is now, could push him towards massmurder/suicide for all we know.

@Nadal, you know why I regularly check this thread? Although there might be nothing new?

Because as long as it is alive, the LE still have to pay attention to this case.

Like many others, I am starting to doubt the goal of that weird PC. I view it as a free advertisement for the Shack, sorry. And I shall not be surprised if what we expected to be the beginning of the investigation is the end of it.

People living in Indiana, two hours away from Delphi, tell me the case is all but forgotten.

Not taking the perp to court will allow him have a life. Not naming him will allow him to have a career. A life. It will be scary.

And you know what? I read several books about the Green River Killer. The task force made their share of mistakes. But they caught him, and became heroes. The case propelled Dave Reichart to Congress.

If the Delphi case is solved, LE will be heroes. All mistakes and snafus will be forgotten.

And no one’s reputation, influence or money is worth of your own glory.

 

[Charlot123]

This. Every bit this. I'm familiar with the "VSCO" girl trend, I'm familiar with the "IG worthy photo shoots" for this age group...but if this was their intent, where are the pics?? The one pic of the bridge and the one pic of Abby that got sent out on snapchat, those don't jiive with this trend. I've always been skeptical that this was their purpose because they have Libby's phone, there would have been more pics. There would have been pics of Libby. I'm just not sold on the primary reason for going there that day being to take pictures, even though it was absolutely a normal teen thing to do.

It doesn't appear it was hunting season? And I'm not sure how satisfying fishing would be in that creek that time of year. Happy to be corrected on both of those hobbies, as I am unfamiliar with them. But it was unseasonably warm, just after more typical snowfall months but safely before more typical hiking months. It seems to me it would be a sweet spot in timing for the (oft speculated) meth cooking in the area, most people if seeing smoke (does that even generate smoke, I actually have no idea) would still assume winter firepits/fireplaces, and they probably didn't know or forgot about the school off day. I think BG could have never intended to kill but carried the gun as I assume people in that nefarious business likely always do. I think the girls then just may have seen a little too much and BG killed them out of fear of maybe going to jail, going back to jail, etc. Or we know there are folks connected to the girls mingled with that lifestyle so perhaps it wasn't something they wanted those connections finding out about, etc. I think its still a reasonable guess at this point is this is tied in some way to drug activity and that is why LE can't get a straight story and no one is willing to give anyone up as being there or knowing who did what to the girls.

I, too, don’t know the technology of cooking meth, but if dope dealing carries a sentence, surely cooking meth in a public recreational place is not the best idea? And then someone sees it, and you kill them?

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Crazy thing is, they said darn near the same things at the April, 2019 presser....."We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop!"

At that April presser, it is also stated that the voice recording is ONE persons voice, and IS the voice of the person ON THE BRIDGE....."the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking"

Now THAT is interesting, because.....somehow they KNOW it to be true. So the question for me is, HOW? How do they know without doubt that the person's voice on that cell phone is the person on the bridge?

To me that says they know exactly who the murderer is, they’ve matched up the picture and the voice to one suspect.

 

[sunshineray]

Crazy thing is, they said darn near the same things at the April, 2019 presser....."We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop!"

At that April presser, it is also stated that the voice recording is ONE persons voice, and IS the voice of the person ON THE BRIDGE....."the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking"

Now THAT is interesting, because.....somehow they KNOW it to be true. So the question for me is, HOW? How do they know without doubt that the person's voice on that cell phone is the person on the bridge?

Time stamp and what else was said on that audio Libby took that we aren't privy to yet.

 

[Nadal]

@Nadal, you know why I regularly check this thread? Although there might be nothing new?

Because as long as it is alive, the LE still have to pay attention to this case.

Like many others, I am starting to doubt the goal of that weird PC. I view it as a free advertisement for the Shack, sorry. And I shall not be surprised if what we expected to be the beginning of the investigation is the end of it.

People living in Indiana, two hours away from Delphi, tell me the case is all but forgotten.

Not taking the perp to court will allow him have a life. Not naming him will allow him to have a career. A life. It will be scary.

And you know what? I read several books about the Green River Killer. The task force made their share of mistakes. But they caught him, and became heroes. The case propelled Dave Reichart to Congress.

If the Delphi case is solved, LE will be heroes. All mistakes and snafus will be forgotten.

And no one’s reputation, influence or money is worth of your own glory.

I was not saying you or anyone else should stop following the thread i was explaining my own frustration and outburst.

An advertisement for some silly movie? Is that a joke to illustrate your frustration or do you actually believe that?

This is the problem with following unsolved cases, they aren't easy to solve and the longer they go unsolved people start straying into conspiracies and accusing LE of being corrupt or incompetent. Those things could be true but at this point we don't really have any examples of those things, only that they haven't solved the case which i don't think is enough to determine that. 2-3 years isn't long enough to give up hope for me i think it'll be solved before the 5 year mark but we'll see.

The Green River Task Force got a conviction though, we'd feel differently about them if they took Ridgeway to court in the 90s failed to get a conviction then he killed his family and himself or something. Putting BG in prison for the rest of his life is the most important thing, if he is not convicted then he is technically innocent and can go on living a life plenty of people who are heavily suspected of crimes are doing that right now. You can't legally discriminate against someone for being arrested for a crime and being declared not guilty. It'll also make it much harder to bring him back to court at a later date when they may have more evidence. All i see it doing is satisfying the publics curiousity.

 

[aust amateur slueth]

[
Not taking the perp to court will allow him have a life. Not naming him will allow him to have a career. A life. It will be scary.

What would be scarier is if they charged him without having every bit of their case in order and watertight, imagine how scary it would be if he was found not guilty because of some small lack of preparation. A good solid case takes time to prepare, a conviction is the goal. If you want an example of how long it can take for a case to get to charges being laid look at Dylan Redwines case, it took years for his father to be charged and it still hasn’t gone to trial as yet.

 

[Nadal]

What would be scarier is if they charged him without having every bit of their case in order and watertight, imagine how scary it would be if he was found not guilty because of some small lack of preparation. A good solid case takes time to prepare, a conviction is the goal. If you want an example of how long it can take for a case to get to charges being laid look at Dylan Redwines case, it took years for his father to be charged and it still hasn’t gone to trial as yet.

Thank you, that's exactly what i've been saying. They shouldn't charge him until they know they've got a good shot at conviction. Hell the DA would likely reject the case under the circumstances Charlot is suggesting as i doubt a DA wants to lose a case of this magnitude.

 

[Nadal]

I'd also point out that if LE don't have the evidence to prove the persons guilt then maybe they aren't guilty. You are already trusting that LE will arrest the right guy in this hypothetical scenario when we know there have been plenty of wrongful and questionable arrests and there will be plenty in the future too. High profile cases attract that more than anything due to high amounts of pressure. We should all be hoping they get the right perp and they prove their case against them so the girls and their families get justice.

 

[Charlot123]

If you believe this guy is unstable i don't know why you'd want him out there free more paranoid than he is now, could push him towards massmurder/suicide for all we know.

italicized by me.

This is the oddest thing I have read, and a veiled threat. MOO.

How can you predict his behavior?

I know nada about him to assess his stability. I am beginning to think he is very stable.

The Green River Task Force got a conviction though, we'd feel differently about them if they took Ridgeway to court in the 90s failed to get a conviction then he killed his family and himself or something. Putting BG in prison for the rest of his life is the most important thing

I don’t care if he goes to prison or kills himself, tbh. I view him as a public threat.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Crazy thing is, they said darn near the same things at the April, 2019 presser....."We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop!"

At that April presser, it is also stated that the voice recording is ONE persons voice, and IS the voice of the person ON THE BRIDGE....."the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking"

Now THAT is interesting, because.....somehow they KNOW it to be true. So the question for me is, HOW? How do they know without doubt that the person's voice on that cell phone is the person on the bridge?

They have seen him speaking: video with sound? Idk, if possible.

 

[JudgeJudi]

What would be scarier is if they charged him without having every bit of their case in order and watertight, imagine how scary it would be if he was found not guilty because of some small lack of preparation. A good solid case takes time to prepare, a conviction is the goal.

I agree. They will no doubt be seeking the death penalty for these murders, even though the last one was carried out in Indiana in 2009. The next best thing would be consecutive life sentences with no possibility of parole.

I live in Oz so had to do a bit of checking and I found this:

"The Sixth Amendment to the Constitution guarantees criminal defendants the right to a speedy trial. Consequently, prosecutors cannot wait an inordinate amount of time before filing charges or proceeding with the prosecution after filing charges. Under the Speedy Trial Act, which Congress passed to clarify the speedy trial guarantee, a trial must begin within 70 days of the prosecutor filing the indictment."

Criminal Procedure

It's my understanding that the DA won't allow LE to arrest and charge him unless they can show probable cause and are basically more or less ready to go to trial. As they'll only get one bite at the cherry, if the DA says they have insufficient evidence, they'll just have to get that "one last piece", and that's what DC has been saying for a while now.

 

[stattlich1]

They have seen him speaking: video with sound? Idk, if possible.

I have thought about it, LE must have him being recorded on the video saying these things. So, LE knows when he said them, whether on the bridge, or elsewhere.

A moot point you might say. However, once again, law enforcement has stated they have a witness, the person on the bridge is the suspect, and they are coming for him. Well, if that is the case, possibly we should be patient with LE, as it appears they know exactly who the murderer is.

"The sketch released on April 22nd is representative of the face of the person captured in the video on Liberty German’s cell phone as he was walking on the high bridge"

“We have a witness,” Superintendent Carter said. “You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there’s no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls.”

Delphi investigators clarify details about new murder suspect sketch

 

[stattlich1]

I also think it may benefit to go back to this.....the focus should be on identification of the NBG. I strongly feel that LE is awaiting the tip that connects NBG to the crime scene that day. It also appears that LE knows the NBG has changed his appearance since the murders.

The new sketch – and the new sketch only- should be the only focus going forward. While the man appears to have a youthful appearance, police say he may actually “fall in the age range from his 20’s to late 30’s”. State police said that the Delphi community should reflect back on people they know in the community that look similar to the [new] sketch released on April 22, 2019, especially if that person has changed their appearance since the murders occurred in February 2017″.

delphi murders press conference transcript Archives - CrimeLights

 

[tresir2012]

This case isn’t related to Abigail and Liberty’s I’m posting it as a shocking example of how different a real photo of a perp can look compared to a police sketch.

“Prosecutor slammed for using his 13-year-old daughter as BAIT to catch a man she said had molested her after he sent her back to the spot where she was allegedly attacked“

Prosecutor criticized for using 14-year-old daughter as bait to catch molester | Daily Mail Online

View attachment 215932

I’m shocked how different the police sketch in this case is so different to the real photo of the perp it makes me wonder how realistic the sketch in Abigail and Liberty’s case is.

I don't think it is that bad. I have seen a lot worse.

With sketches, LE can only go by how observant the victim is. In this case we actually have a video and voice and it still isn't good enough.

 

[Cryptic]

I stated earlier that Abby looked "dolled up" compared to other pictures. Her hair was up, she wore a close fitting top. My opinion. She looked older dressing this way not in a tee shirt and pony tail..it could mean nothing...

Also her mother said she'd never consent to her being on the bridge so there is that as well. MOO

I like your first observation (one victim's "older" mode of dress could imply a planned meeting).

In regards to the second observation, a lot of teenagers do stuff that their parents would never consent to. Rather, I think the inference could be better pursued by asking: "How much interest had the victims shown in the park over the years?".

There are plenty of teenagers who live next to far more interesting great outdoors stuff then that park and show very little interest in them.

If the victims were part of this large "non outdoorsy" teen age population (not detracting from the victims), a sudden interest in the park could further indicate a planned meeting.

 

[Falcon500]

Those untested rape kits tell me that women have no value to society and rape is ok. Women need to unite on this issue. moo

What it tells me is that the elected officials of Indiana don’t care to allocate a dollar for the personnel needed to work all of those untested rape kits.