Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

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Does anyone know if the far-reaching nationwide billboards are still up, with the NBG sketch added? Or were the billboards downsized to more Indiana area states after the April 2019 PC?

On the corner of Hoosier Heartland Highway and State Rd 218, Diane Erskin (Abby’s maternal grandmother) put up a sign that says “HOPE”. It’s right next to a billboard of Abby and Libby, but this billboard bears no comparison to the 6,000 electronic billboards the FBI utilised in 46 states.

Bboard.JPG e-bboard.JPG

One of the electronic billboards was located on E. Fall Creek Parkway North Drive, near the Indiana State Fairgrounds. It would be great if someone here could check if it’s still in use for Abby and Libby, but I suspect they were only used for a relatively limited time.

Family still hopeful after police release new evidence in Delphi murders

6,000 billboards in 46 states plead for information in Delphi girls' murders
 
I agree 100%.

That and the audio released in April leads me to believe BG is much younger than many thought for two plus years.

Very well could be under the age of 25, JMO.

I think he was high school age (at the time the crimes were committed). Basing on body/legs, my impression of his face, off school same day, use of "guys." MOO. And after a few months, off he went to college or a job in another town or to lay low with relatives. IMO. Something just brings to mind the perp in the Closs case.
 
I’ve always wondered if they were running across the creek to get away. I’m not sure that BG planned to take them across the creek? Thoughts?

@Falling Down, you’ve been to the scene. If the motive was SA, does geography/logistics in front of the creek without crossing allow for a location that would have been as ideal for, say an SA or just flat out killing, as across the creek? Hope that makes sense. What are your thoughts on all this crossing the creek business?

(Yes I know we are all having the same conversations over and over, what else are we supposed to do? )


Full disclosure: I haven't been to the bridge area, just the area around there, the roads around there and the cemetery. I'm a pretty big guy and thick-skinned to a degree, but walking to the bridge was not in FD's plan on that specific day, although I'd thought about it. People told me I shouldn't, too. People who have been to the bridge. Besides, I'm afraid of heights and just looking at that bridge kinda scares me.

As an avid outdoorsman and hiker, I think I can relate to what BG was looking for, with regards to terrain. If ever there was a spot along Deer Creek to force the girls to walk to and be killed, he found it. MOO is he had the crime scene scoped out well in advance, days, weeks (more likely), or even months. Not only does this guy hunt people, I think he's an avid outdoorsman/hunter and has powers of observation beyond most folks, per his background and maybe even how he's hard-wired in his mind.

He picked the perfect spot, in advance, he needed privacy like any killer that is similar in their MO that come to my mind. The flat-ish area across the creek from the CS would have been a bad choice. He needed a spot with no clear line-of-sight of much of anything, once I found out exactly where the bodies were found it made perfect sense to me why he picked it. it's in the gorge, it's secluded, there's no regular foot traffic through there to speak of (at least during that time of year), and the berms by the gravel pit and vegetation blocked the view from areas close by. Judging by videos and still shots I've seen, even from across the creek say 100 or so feet away there's a bit of an obscured view.

IK is one killer in recent years that fits a similar profile, most of his victims he found in wooded areas he knew well, in some cases very well, and he knew where he could tell his victims to go so he had the privacy he needed to rape, murder, torture, etc. The story of the couple he interacted with in a secluded area in a park in NH gives me chills, that post reminds me of this case. Creepy stuff:

AK, NY Israel Keyes - Who are all of his victims???

I think the actual crossing of the creek was done for a variety of reasons, some known only to the killer at this point. Some may be personal in nature, I often wonder about this. Crossing the creek to a place already picked out for murder is a new one to me, I've sleuthed hundreds of cases in this region of the country, going back roughly 40 years, and this one is truly "for the books". I don't recall any of those cases being like this one, and the crossing the creek part adds a certain element of weirdness and surprise for me.

Here's Falling Down's version of trying to get inside BG's state of mind, before the murders:

1. Scout out various locations to carry out my fantasy, maybe starting with online resources, forums, etc. Maybe one or more locations I'm already familiar with to some degree.
2. Learn everything I can about those locations, drive to them, walk them, time myself walking from point to point, etc. Maybe talk with some people, ask them questions about those locations.
3. People watch at those locations, use my powers of observation to see how people act, that sort of thing. Watch how people act towards me and interact with me, if that applies.
4. Watch YouTube videos of the areas by where I want to kill, if that applies. (There were YT videos taken on and by MHB in the months previous to the murders. I used one to figure out how to get there, when I drove to there in 2017. There is no indication a bridge is there via signage in the surrounding areas, you have to know how to get to Delphi, where to park, and where to walk. The sign along 300 is off the road and is not really an "official" municipal or government sign, not that I'm aware of at least. Before the murders, I'd imagine the vast majority of people who drive IN 25 regularly never knew the bridge is right near the highway, locals interviewed said they knew a bridge was there but didn't know how to get to it, and had never been to it.)
5. Practice, maybe many times in advance. Get a feel for the area, the people, the trail users, the gorge, etc.
8. Etc.

This was a well-planned attack, I'm not saying this guy's a genius or criminal mastermind, but I think some things in his background helped him carry out these attacks. I can map out things in my mind pretty well, I picture BG having similar abilities. I think he's terribly obsessive, maybe OCD, I can relate some in that regard (probably explains why I'm drawn to this case and other true crime stuff).

When I first mapped the area around that bridge, I made sure to put the distances in feet, especially the distances from the NW approach to the bridge to the CS, the bridge length, and the distance from the SE end to the CS. I'd bet good money he did the same before the murders, or at least knew the amount of time it took to walk those distances from point-to-point. I was surprised to learn the straight distance from the SE end of the bridge to the CS is roughly 550 feet. Media reports have said the bridge is around a half mile from the CS, from the NW end it's under 3/8 of a mile.

I think BG had this all figured out, and having obsessive issues, maybe even OCD, would have helped him plan and carry out his fantasy.

JMO
 
“Further, Jim thinks the killer used the victims' own politeness and social graces to put the girls into a vulnerable position (the girls' natural deference to do what an adult tells a younger person to do). On the other hand, the fact that Libby took the pictures and recorded the audio says that Libby was fairly certain that something bad was happening.”

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

—-

I’m not so sure about the “politeness and social graces” part, moo.

I’m recalling how my friend was attacked in a mall parking lot. She said the guy stormed towards her from all the way across the mall parking lot, yelling, cursing.

(What I learned from that is that sometimes they don’t creep up on you, rather they run at you full force and in full sight like a “football player”, as she described.)
 
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Maybe. That could explain why there can be few DNA matches, if there is DNA, or matches will be odd and irregular. The group itself might not be keenly into DNA, and who else could match?


A lot of people, but distant and irregular.

Bingo.

Parents from overseas, maybe.

The possibility he comes from a certain religious background has crossed my mind recently, and inbreeding within certain cloistered sects and no DNA submitted to various sites could in difficulty in making a match. A friend of mine from over the line in OH is Mennonite, there's a lot of inbreeding, so to speak, in a lot of their communities.

JMO
 
I think he was high school age (at the time the crimes were committed). Basing on body/legs, my impression of his face, off school same day, use of "guys." MOO. And after a few months, off he went to college or a job in another town or to lay low with relatives. IMO. Something just brings to mind the perp in the Closs case.

Lately I've been getting an eerie feeling BG is pretty young. Him being a teen at the time of the murders popped into my mind over the weekend. I know I keep saying it here but it bears repeating, some person or some people know his identity. People have to have ID'd him by now, but maybe haven't tipped off LE for whatever reason.

JMO
 
1. Scout out various locations to carry out my fantasy, maybe starting with online resources, forums, etc. Maybe one or more locations I'm already familiar with to some degree.
2. Learn everything I can about those locations, drive to them, walk them, time myself walking from point to point, etc. Maybe talk with some people, ask them questions about those locations.
3. People watch at those locations, use my powers of observation to see how people act, that sort of thing. Watch how people act towards me and interact with me, if that applies.
3a Prove a certain disguise and prove, if people will recognize my well-known person or not. If they don't recognize me, I can return for more.
4. Watch YouTube videos of the areas by where I want to kill, if that applies. (There were YT videos taken on and by MHB in the months previous to the murders. I used one to figure out how to get there, when I drove to there in 2017. There is no indication a bridge is there via signage in the surrounding areas, you have to know how to get to Delphi, where to park, and where to walk. The sign along 300 is off the road and is not really an "official" municipal or government sign, not that I'm aware of at least. Before the murders, I'd imagine the vast majority of people who drive IN 25 regularly never knew the bridge is right near the highway, locals interviewed said they knew a bridge was there but didn't know how to get to it, and had never been to it.)
5. Practice, maybe many times in advance. Get a feel for the area, the people, the trail users, the gorge, etc.
8. Etc.
3a bbm + red
Agree with all you said in your post! I added 3a, just for the books. ;)
 
3a bbm + red
Agree with all you said in your post! I added 3a, just for the books. ;)

FG, yes, and I was just thinking about a disguise.

What if BG donned a different outfit before leaving the CS, or maybe even disguised himself some? Skin-tight mask? The latter I've thought a lot about, it would explain two sketches and why LE have stated that the 1st sketch can't be ruled out, or something to that extent.

Kinda bothers me there's been no description of what he was wearing after the murders, yet people claim to have seen him. Was he wearing the same outfit, which I believe is another form of disguise, after the murders? Did they see OBG or NBG?

???

JMO
 
:rolleyes: We here on WS seem to haven't been fantasizing!

Yeah, believe me I was trying not to add “cough” in big letters after that post bc it was snarky - I’ve taken a LOT of heat from posters about my speculation about the gun and holster, especially in the early days, so honestly I was very relieved to post that, that “professionals” are seeing the same things too.



ETA: Further musings, imo, if I had one adjective right now to describe the overall mood of this case in general, it would be “tense”. There is tension in the air. Everybody wants an arrest. BADLY.

We NEED an arrest. C’mon something’s gotta break.



I think it’s possible he’s changed MOs, moo. I’d buy that before I bought he’s lying low—I’m not sure he can control himself, that much rage or hatred or whatever he has...Al though we do know some SKs have extended cooling-off periods.



Gosh, if we could just get a narrowing on the age range that might help as far as understanding how experienced this predator may or may not be, how far back could his crimes possibly go.

LE seems to really be focusing on a younger perp, but again it’s really not definitive imo considering different quotes (“could be a mixture”, etc.).

—-

I understand preserving the integrity of the investigation of course, but as far as IF SA is definitely known to have occurred, then I think knowing that would be helpful as far as narrowing the focus towards sexual predators and sexual crimes. For example, in Cheryl’s and Andy’s case that is now 29 years cold, if DNA doesn’t produce a hit, then we are left with the killer’s very clear signatures.

I’m not sure if any signatures appear here or not.

—-

I’ve been looking into prostitution murders in Chicago, those were numerous. Needle in a haystack.



I’m trying to get on board with the younger perp but I’m like an old dog trying to learn a new trick. This must be a result of conditioning, because everyone seems to have hopped on that train, most importantly LE.

—-

One thing I do feel fairly confidant about is that imo he’s likely an outdoorsman, Hunter, fisherman.

Which brings us back to the whole deer hunting thing. Maybe that’s how he is familiar? Of course there are infinite ways he could be familiar with this area. We’ve probably covered them all in 116 threads.

Going back to deer hunting for that area:

DNR: Indiana Community Hunting Access Program

—-

Early on we talked about hunting and fishing licenses in the area. I’m sure LE has reviewed all the years’ records dating back....

DNR: Deer Hunt Registry
 
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On the corner of Hoosier Heartland Highway and State Rd 218, Diane Erskin (Abby’s maternal grandmother) put up a sign that says “HOPE”. It’s right next to a billboard of Abby and Libby, but this billboard bears no comparison to the 6,000 electronic billboards the FBI utilised in 46 states.

View attachment 217782 View attachment 217783

One of the electronic billboards was located on E. Fall Creek Parkway North Drive, near the Indiana State Fairgrounds. It would be great if someone here could check if it’s still in use for Abby and Libby, but I suspect they were only used for a relatively limited time.

Family still hopeful after police release new evidence in Delphi murders

6,000 billboards in 46 states plead for information in Delphi girls' murders
Judi, do you know if the NBG sketch was ever put up on a billboard? TIA
 
I think he was high school age (at the time the crimes were committed). Basing on body/legs, my impression of his face, off school same day, use of "guys." MOO. And after a few months, off he went to college or a job in another town or to lay low with relatives. IMO. Something just brings to mind the perp in the Closs case.
Well, the problem is, they are all alike in Delphi. There are several kids that look like the BG, but seems to be common for the area. And we can’t even tell, whether BG is right-or left-handed. This at least LE could have disclosed. My hunch is, there is some form of OCD, maybe he even had Tourrette’s as a kid, but it is just a hunch.
My question is, and what about students that were in colleges? Did they have vacations in February, or not?
 
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Full disclosure: I haven't been to the bridge area, just the area around there, the roads around there and the cemetery. I'm a pretty big guy and thick-skinned to a degree, but walking to the bridge was not in FD's plan on that specific day, although I'd thought about it. People told me I shouldn't, too. People who have been to the bridge. Besides, I'm afraid of heights and just looking at that bridge kinda scares me.

As an avid outdoorsman and hiker, I think I can relate to what BG was looking for, with regards to terrain. If ever there was a spot along Deer Creek to force the girls to walk to and be killed, he found it. MOO is he had the crime scene scoped out well in advance, days, weeks (more likely), or even months. Not only does this guy hunt people, I think he's an avid outdoorsman/hunter and has powers of observation beyond most folks, per his background and maybe even how he's hard-wired in his mind.

He picked the perfect spot, in advance, he needed privacy like any killer that is similar in their MO that come to my mind. The flat-ish area across the creek from the CS would have been a bad choice. He needed a spot with no clear line-of-sight of much of anything, once I found out exactly where the bodies were found it made perfect sense to me why he picked it. it's in the gorge, it's secluded, there's no regular foot traffic through there to speak of (at least during that time of year), and the berms by the gravel pit and vegetation blocked the view from areas close by. Judging by videos and still shots I've seen, even from across the creek say 100 or so feet away there's a bit of an obscured view.

IK is one killer in recent years that fits a similar profile, most of his victims he found in wooded areas he knew well, in some cases very well, and he knew where he could tell his victims to go so he had the privacy he needed to rape, murder, torture, etc. The story of the couple he interacted with in a secluded area in a park in NH gives me chills, that post reminds me of this case. Creepy stuff:

AK, NY Israel Keyes - Who are all of his victims???

I think the actual crossing of the creek was done for a variety of reasons, some known only to the killer at this point. Some may be personal in nature, I often wonder about this. Crossing the creek to a place already picked out for murder is a new one to me, I've sleuthed hundreds of cases in this region of the country, going back roughly 40 years, and this one is truly "for the books". I don't recall any of those cases being like this one, and the crossing the creek part adds a certain element of weirdness and surprise for me.

Here's Falling Down's version of trying to get inside BG's state of mind, before the murders:

1. Scout out various locations to carry out my fantasy, maybe starting with online resources, forums, etc. Maybe one or more locations I'm already familiar with to some degree.
2. Learn everything I can about those locations, drive to them, walk them, time myself walking from point to point, etc. Maybe talk with some people, ask them questions about those locations.
3. People watch at those locations, use my powers of observation to see how people act, that sort of thing. Watch how people act towards me and interact with me, if that applies.
4. Watch YouTube videos of the areas by where I want to kill, if that applies. (There were YT videos taken on and by MHB in the months previous to the murders. I used one to figure out how to get there, when I drove to there in 2017. There is no indication a bridge is there via signage in the surrounding areas, you have to know how to get to Delphi, where to park, and where to walk. The sign along 300 is off the road and is not really an "official" municipal or government sign, not that I'm aware of at least. Before the murders, I'd imagine the vast majority of people who drive IN 25 regularly never knew the bridge is right near the highway, locals interviewed said they knew a bridge was there but didn't know how to get to it, and had never been to it.)
5. Practice, maybe many times in advance. Get a feel for the area, the people, the trail users, the gorge, etc.
8. Etc.

This was a well-planned attack, I'm not saying this guy's a genius or criminal mastermind, but I think some things in his background helped him carry out these attacks. I can map out things in my mind pretty well, I picture BG having similar abilities. I think he's terribly obsessive, maybe OCD, I can relate some in that regard (probably explains why I'm drawn to this case and other true crime stuff).

When I first mapped the area around that bridge, I made sure to put the distances in feet, especially the distances from the NW approach to the bridge to the CS, the bridge length, and the distance from the SE end to the CS. I'd bet good money he did the same before the murders, or at least knew the amount of time it took to walk those distances from point-to-point. I was surprised to learn the straight distance from the SE end of the bridge to the CS is roughly 550 feet. Media reports have said the bridge is around a half mile from the CS, from the NW end it's under 3/8 of a mile.

I think BG had this all figured out, and having obsessive issues, maybe even OCD, would have helped him plan and carry out his fantasy.

JMO
I agree, I'd never considered that the crime scene was actually the killer's predetermined "lair". I thought he probably meant to kill them on the side of the creek they'd crossed to, always thought they tried to flee. It would be very surprising if crossing a creek in mid February was actually planned.
 
“Further, Jim thinks the killer used the victims' own politeness and social graces to put the girls into a vulnerable position (the girls' natural deference to do what an adult tells a younger person to do). On the other hand, the fact that Libby took the pictures and recorded the audio says that Libby was fairly certain that something bad was happening.”

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

—-

I’m not so sure about the “politeness and social graces” part, moo.

I’m recalling how my friend was attacked in a mall parking lot. She said the guy stormed towards her from all the way across the mall parking lot, yelling, cursing.

(What I learned from that is that sometimes they don’t creep up on you, rather they run at you full force and in full sight like a “football player”, as she described.)
That's just terrifying. I'm so sorry for your friend.
 
Yeah, believe me I was trying not to add “cough” in big letters after that post bc it was snarky - I’ve taken a LOT of heat from posters about my speculation about the gun and holster, especially in the early days, so honestly I was very relieved to post that, that “professionals” are seeing the same things too.



ETA: Further musings, imo, if I had one adjective right now to describe the overall mood of this case in general, it would be “tense”. There is tension in the air. Everybody wants an arrest. BADLY.

We NEED an arrest. C’mon something’s gotta break.



I think it’s possible he’s changed MOs, moo. I’d buy that before I bought he’s lying low—I’m not sure he can control himself, that much rage or hatred or whatever he has...Al though we do know some SKs have extended cooling-off periods.



Gosh, if we could just get a narrowing on the age range that might help as far as understanding how experienced this predator may or may not be, how far back could his crimes possibly go.

LE seems to really be focusing on a younger perp, but again it’s really not definitive imo considering different quotes (“could be a mixture”, etc.).

—-

I understand preserving the integrity of the investigation of course, but as far as IF SA is definitely known to have occurred, then I think knowing that would be helpful as far as narrowing the focus towards sexual predators and sexual crimes. For example, in Cheryl’s and Andy’s case that is now 29 years cold, if DNA doesn’t produce a hit, then we are left with the killer’s very clear signatures.

I’m not sure if any signatures appear here or not.

—-

I’ve been looking into prostitution murders in Chicago, those were numerous. Needle in a haystack.



I’m trying to get on board with the younger perp but I’m like an old dog trying to learn a new trick. This must be a result of conditioning, because everyone seems to have hopped on that train, most importantly LE.

—-

One thing I do feel fairly confidant about is that imo he’s likely an outdoorsman, Hunter, fisherman.

Which brings us back to the whole deer hunting thing. Maybe that’s how he is familiar? Of course there are infinite ways he could be familiar with this area. We’ve probably covered them all in 116 threads.

Going back to deer hunting for that area:

DNR: Indiana Community Hunting Access Program

—-

Early on we talked about hunting and fishing licenses in the area. I’m sure LE has reviewed all the years’ records dating back....

DNR: Deer Hunt Registry
He could be a hunter or fisherman, but teen and pre-teen boys like to explore. He could have stumbled upon the kill site while exploring as a boy. Even if he is a hunter or fisherman, that wouldn't preclude his having been a young adult at the time of the murders.
 
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