Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #14

[tresir2012]

Stupid Question Alert: How would they go about doing that? In the legal sense, in the functional sense, in any other sense that I can't quite wrap my head around? It would be a huge clue, so if that was done...could you/someone explain how?

They get a search warrant which includes the phone info from the company. They can also ping phones themselves. They went back to the three Rexburg apartments with search warrants on the 27th Nov.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Agreed. Not only that but we'd have to consider what exactly it would take to successfully hide the children alive. This includes, among other things:

• At least one or more people willing and able to shelter, feed, and care for the children for an extended and indeterminate period of time.
  
• They must be able to do this with little or no compensation from Lori during this time, lest LE or others can track them through payments.
  
• Said people must also be very loyal and/or close to Lori in order for her to trust them with caring for her children.
• They must also be willing and able to keep the whole affair quiet and not let others know about the children. The more people who know about the children the more likely there will be an eventual leak.
• They must be willing to break the law for Lori, even to the point of facing potential felony and federal charges for keeping the children hidden from LE in this missing and endangered children case.
• They must not be tempted by money - there is after all a $20,000 reward for their safe return.
• They must not be swayed by public opinion, social media, news, MSM, or other revelations which cast doubt on Lori or Chad's motives and activities for the last year or so. They must completely and infallibly believe Lori's story and/or character to be above reproach. They cannot ever question or doubt her integrity in the least.
  
• They must be willing to not care about and ignore the feelings of any of TR or JJ's extended family who are searching and pleading for their return.
• They must be able to keep TR and JJ isolated from the rest of the world so that they don't know everyone, including loving family, are looking for them, otherwise...
• They must brainwash TR and JJ into not caring that everyone, including loving family, are looking for them.
• They must have the cooperation of, or be able to deal with, a teenager who may or may not want to be with them and/or wants her own freedoms.
• They must be able to deal with a young autistic special needs boy, whose entire life has been upended and thrown into chaos, while caring for all his needs, and keeping him out of danger/trouble.
• Do all of this while not having any contact with Lori, lest LE or others are able to track them down through their communications.

While I could see a few of these things potentially happening, there is just simply no way I could see all of these things being true. And while I still very much hope that the kids are alive and well somewhere, it isn't looking very good to me right now. MOO.

IMO, a cult is a cult is a cult.... "give me freedom or give me death" gets twisted to absolute obedience to the purpose... hiding the children, defying any law enforcement, waiting for the "end days". That is why I still am so 50/50 on whether they are alive or dead. The need and role of children in these "doomsday" scenarios is critical IMO. If alive, I am certain the two are totally damaged and not loved, but they will be coveted for the cause. Tis why I really think MB tried to steal her kids back too.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Agreed. Not only that but we'd have to consider what exactly it would take to successfully hide the children alive. This includes, among other things:

• At least one or more people willing and able to shelter, feed, and care for the children for an extended and indeterminate period of time.
  
• They must be able to do this with little or no compensation from Lori during this time, lest LE or others can track them through payments.
  
• Said people must also be very loyal and/or close to Lori in order for her to trust them with caring for her children.
• They must also be willing and able to keep the whole affair quiet and not let others know about the children. The more people who know about the children the more likely there will be an eventual leak.
• They must be willing to break the law for Lori, even to the point of facing potential felony and federal charges for keeping the children hidden from LE in this missing and endangered children case.
• They must not be tempted by money - there is after all a $20,000 reward for their safe return.
• They must not be swayed by public opinion, social media, news, MSM, or other revelations which cast doubt on Lori or Chad's motives and activities for the last year or so. They must completely and infallibly believe Lori's story and/or character to be above reproach. They cannot ever question or doubt her integrity in the least.
  
• They must be willing to not care about and ignore the feelings of any of TR or JJ's extended family who are searching and pleading for their return.
• They must be able to keep TR and JJ isolated from the rest of the world so that they don't know everyone, including loving family, are looking for them, otherwise...
• They must brainwash TR and JJ into not caring that everyone, including loving family, are looking for them.
• They must have the cooperation of, or be able to deal with, a teenager who may or may not want to be with them and/or wants her own freedoms.
• They must be able to deal with a young autistic special needs boy, whose entire life has been upended and thrown into chaos, while caring for all his needs, and keeping him out of danger/trouble.
• Do all of this while not having any contact with Lori, lest LE or others are able to track them down through their communications.

While I could see a few of these things potentially happening, there is just simply no way I could see all of these things being true. And while I still very much hope that the kids are alive and well somewhere, it isn't looking very good to me right now. MOO.

I have been saying for quite a while I think the kids may be with MB or she may know where they are but it is just a gut feeling.

IMO, a cult is a cult is a cult.... "give me freedom or give me death" gets twisted to absolute obedience to the purpose... hiding the children, defying any law enforcement, waiting for the "end days". That is why I still am so 50/50 on whether they are alive or dead. The need and role of children in these "doomsday" scenarios is critical IMO. If alive, I am certain the two are totally damaged and not loved, but they will be coveted for the cause. Tis why I really think MB tried to steal her kids back too. AND i do agree with others that MB either has them or knows where they are.

 

[jjenny]

Maybe she was influenced by Chad who could provide her with a mystical justification for getting rid of the kids, just like with his visions of Tammy's death. On previous occasions she spoke about driving off a cliff when she was cornered (custody issues) or in a hypothetical dire situation (end of times happening). There's no indication that she was in such a situation in September.

She either believes ends of time is happening (soon) or not. Why would she not believe it in September?

 

[indicolite22]

IMO, a cult is a cult is a cult.... "give me freedom or give me death" gets twisted to absolute obedience to the purpose... hiding the children, defying any law enforcement, waiting for the "end days". That is why I still am so 50/50 on whether they are alive or dead. The need and role of children in these "doomsday" scenarios is critical IMO. If alive, I am certain the two are totally damaged and not loved, but they will be coveted for the cause. Tis why I really think MB tried to steal her kids back too.

Child support could also have been a motive for taking the kids.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Not to offend anyone but since when are hardcore preppers logical or respectful of the law. To them C&L are just good people being pursued by an unjust government. There are way too many recent examples of this kind of thinking to believe it is unusual.

It's very easy to bring up specific examples that inevitably lead to unproductive political discussion. But let's face it, there are plenty of people in Arizona and Idaho and elsewhere with a deep distrust of the government, doesn't matter if the head is Barack or Donald, they have no respect for authority. So when the FBI comes knocking they don't answer but they might be standing behind the door ready to fight back. When ordered to produce the children they will refuse if they think, by some deluded legal theory, they do not have to. Lori's father has been defying the federal government on numerous issues her entire life on debunked legal theories. I have no doubt some of that has rubbed off on her.

That's why I think she has stashed the kids away safely and is simply being defiant. She knows that in the end she has done nothing serious with the kids. The cops/FBI will look like idiots and may even get sued if they arrest her and she ultimately produces the kids. Idaho is going through the appropriate motions. But Idaho cops cannot make an arrest in Hawaii. They need to wait for Idaho to issue an governor's warrant for extradition and the Hawaii governor to approve it. If a Hawaii cop makes an arrest on an invalid Idaho warrant he can personally be prosecuted for kidnapping of Lori. So each jurisdiction is going to proceed carefully and slowly. Even the Hawaii Governor could face charges if he signs a warrant to arrest someone illegally. And each of these politicians will have seriously egg covered faces if Lori produces the kids as soon as she is arrested. She would have a good laugh and they look like idiots.

Outstanding.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

I have been saying for quite a while I think the kids may be with MB or she may know where they are but it is just a gut feeling.

Wouldn't LE be keeping a close eye on MB for the time being? At least I would hope so!

 

[caseface]

Well, never mind she was telling apparently more than one person that they should get their kids and go off the cliff. So those to you don't indicate beliefs that she could harm her kids?

This is definitely concerning and one of the reasons i am 49% leaning the way you are. It's just hearsay at this point and still doesn't provide as much as a motive as the religious angle IMO only. You certainly have good reason to fear for the children's safety. I do also. I just feel like, with the information we have, that there is a good deal of reason to believe she may have hidden them somewhere, even against their will. My fear is that, in the end, you will be correct. I really hope not though.

 

[FindingJoLee]

BBM. IMO Melani, but she's not hiding.

Melani's an even newer newlywed than Lori. And by now Melani's seen her not-as-newlywedded Aunt Lori enjoying the beach in Kauai with her gross new husband, all carefree and breezy for almost 3 months. Meanwhile, Melani's honeymooning in Iceburg, Idaho (and presumably making court dates in Utah for felony trespassing.) If Melani really did buy in to caring for the children at some point (and you're right, she's not missing or hiding), where are the children now?

I've been to both places. If someone's in Hawaii for months and I'm in Rexburg in the winter hiding their kids in my apartment....I don't think I'd have that much loyalty to anyone. I would rat that out in a heartbeat.

 

[indicolite22]

She either believes ends of time is happening (soon) or not. Why would she not believe it in September?

I got the impression that she would drive off a cliff together with the children when the end of the world was imminent or happening, not 6 months in advance. This is not the same type of thinking IMO.

 

[Randocalrissian]

For all the Mormons here, do they have security cameras in the chapel now?

Nope. Not that I am aware.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

This is definitely concerning and one of the reasons i am 49% leaning the way you are. It's just hearsay at this point and still doesn't provide as much as a motive as the religious angle IMO only. You certainly have good reason to fear for the children's safety. I do also. I just feel like, with the information we have, that there is a good deal of reason to believe she may have hidden them somewhere, even against their will. My fear is that, in the end, you will be correct. I really hope not though.

I do not think that is considered hearsay. Hearsay is like a rumor. This was a statement Lori made to a social worker that was documented in government files at the time it happened, and resulted in an evaluation. (But I am not a lawyer.)
EDIT: my bad, I thought you were talking about when she said the kids would be better off dead. The cliff statement is hearsay. Too many times she has talked about her kids being dead.

 

[indicolite22]

Melani's an even newer newlywed than Lori. And by now Melani's seen her not-as-newlywedded Aunt Lori enjoying the beach in Kauai with her gross new husband, all carefree and breezy for almost 3 months. Meanwhile, Melani's honeymooning in Iceburg, Idaho (and presumably making court dates in Utah for felony trespassing.) If Melani really did buy in to caring for the children at some point (and you're right, she's not missing or hiding), where are the children now?

I've been to both places. If someone's in Hawaii for months and I'm in Rexburg in the winter hiding their kids in my apartment....I don't think I'd have that much loyalty to anyone. I would rat that out in a heartbeat.

I don't think Melani has the kids, but I also don't think she's thinking rationally. She may be still under Lori's and Chad's influence. She left her family to join their cult.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Thanks. Looks like you are 11 hours behind UK so good evening. 10.17 a.m here ATM.

Yeah that sort of makes a mockery of it really doesn't it, unless the compound is somewhere in Hawaii?

IMO...because the children are necessary for the overall plan, but they would "still know and talk" they must be confined where they will be brainwashed and silenced....

 

[caseface]

The fact they are missing and have not been shown to Welfare is motive enough. Anyone hiding them will be committing an offence also.

I think these facts are concerning, no doubt; however, to a libertarian like Lori, she does not believe she is legally obligated to produce her children for LE. I do not think that shows a motive for murder though. Red flags? Absolutely. Anyone hiding the kids at this point or Lori herself (if they are indeed in hiding and she doesn't want to reveal their location) could simply make a video with a current newspaper or something. This is the part that makes no sense to me and makes me question my belief that they are in hiding; however, knowing libertarians just like Lori, I know people that would take it to the very end just to prove a point. Again, i am 49% to 51% on this thing. I feel like either is possible; i just think that, with what we know and my experience with people like Lori, that they could be in hiding and i'm holding out hope for that. Your experiences are different from mine and you will form different opinions and that is okay. Either of us could be right and both of us could be wrong. Either way, i just hope they are alive.

 

[caseface]

I do not think that is considered hearsay. Hearsay is like a rumor. This was a statement Lori made to a social worker that was documented in government files at the time it happened, and resulted in an evaluation. (But I am not a lawyer.)
EDIT: my bad, I thought you were talking about when she said the kids would be better off dead. The cliff statement is hearsay. Too many times she has talked about her kids being dead.

You may be right as long as it is admissible in criminal court. Hopefully its just the ramblings of a crazy woman.

 

[FindingJoLee]

I think these facts are concerning, no doubt; however, to a libertarian like Lori, she does not believe she is legally obligated to produce her children for LE. I do not think that shows a motive for murder though. Red flags? Absolutely. Anyone hiding the kids at this point or Lori herself (if they are indeed in hiding and she doesn't want to reveal their location) could simply make a video with a current newspaper or something. This is the part that makes no sense to me and makes me question my belief that they are in hiding; however, knowing libertarians just like Lori, I know people that would take it to the very end just to prove a point. Again, i am 49% to 51% on this thing. I feel like either is possible; i just think that, with what we know and my experience with people like Lori, that they could be in hiding and i'm holding out hope for that. Your experiences are different from mine and you will form different opinions and that is okay. Either of us could be right and both of us could be wrong. Either way, i just hope they are alive.

There is also that part of her personality that just can't.let.something.go. Case in point is literally a case: Tylee's custody disagreement lasted years, and involved an attempt on Joe's life, very ugly accusations, and at least two out-of-state moves away from her father.

 

[FindingJoLee]

I got the impression that she would drive off a cliff together with the children when the end of the world was imminent or happening, not 6 months in advance. This is not the same type of thinking IMO.

I agree with you. I think she would consider that situation a "mercy killing." Though I am also open to the idea that she just generally doesn't place a lot of value the lives of others. See Joe. See Charles. See Bailey. See possibly a lot of others.

 

[caseface]

Bottom line is: its not black or white. Its not "they are doing it because they are in a cult" or "they are doing it for money" or "they are doing it because they are mentally ill" or "they are doing it because of custody". Its a mixture, just like real life. Our psychology drives what we do as well as the larger belief systems we choose to follow. Much of our activity is unconscious. So, Lori could very well believe completely in the religious angle and still be motivated by an unconscious desire for money, fame, love, etc. The more trauma she faced as a child, the more likely she is to be out of touch with her unconscious motives; at this point, she is likely blind to whatever she is doing. Obviously, if she believes this is all okay, something is "off" here. But all of the reverse could be true. We just don't know but there's no need to choose one or the other. I think that it IS important, though, to be sure not to discount anything until we know different. We must look at all motives and angles, which means we cannot leave out the religious portion. Listen to the detective who was hired by BB. He followed many of these players and he seems to believe they really believe in this end of days stuff. It's all intertwined. Let's not discount any of it.

 

[utahobserver]

Agreed. Not only that but we'd have to consider what exactly it would take to successfully hide the children alive. This includes, among other things:

• At least one or more people willing and able to shelter, feed, and care for the children for an extended and indeterminate period of time.
  
• They must be able to do this with little or no compensation from Lori during this time, lest LE or others can track them through payments.
  
• Said people must also be very loyal and/or close to Lori in order for her to trust them with caring for her children.
• They must also be willing and able to keep the whole affair quiet and not let others know about the children. The more people who know about the children the more likely there will be an eventual leak.
• They must be willing to break the law for Lori, even to the point of facing potential felony and federal charges for keeping the children hidden from LE in this missing and endangered children case.
• They must not be tempted by money - there is after all a $20,000 reward for their safe return.
• They must not be swayed by public opinion, social media, news, MSM, or other revelations which cast doubt on Lori or Chad's motives and activities for the last year or so. They must completely and infallibly believe Lori's story and/or character to be above reproach. They cannot ever question or doubt her integrity in the least.
  
• They must be willing to not care about and ignore the feelings of any of TR or JJ's extended family who are searching and pleading for their return.
• They must be able to keep TR and JJ isolated from the rest of the world so that they don't know everyone, including loving family, are looking for them, otherwise...
• They must brainwash TR and JJ into not caring that everyone, including loving family, are looking for them.
• They must have the cooperation of, or be able to deal with, a teenager who may or may not want to be with them and/or wants her own freedoms.
• They must be able to deal with a young autistic special needs boy, whose entire life has been upended and thrown into chaos, while caring for all his needs, and keeping him out of danger/trouble.
• Do all of this while not having any contact with Lori, lest LE or others are able to track them down through their communications.

While I could see a few of these things potentially happening, there is just simply no way I could see all of these things being true. And while I still very much hope that the kids are alive and well somewhere, it isn't looking very good to me right now. MOO.

Her family might meet this criteria. Also, the comments on Tammy’s obituary page reference “Chad’s followers”. So there might be something deeper there as well. Because they are so obvious in plain sight, etc., they aren’t hiding from LE, they are keeping low from media, there has to be more to this.

I have trouble believing that Lori is stupid enough to keep Tylee’s phone if she harmed her. She might have kept it to just emphasize no contact with the world outside their group of dedicated followers.

One thing that bugs me is that the CBS report said “phone(s)”. I wonder if LE returned CV phone to her? If so, and she kept that, then all bets are off and she is as dumb as a rock.