Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #58

[10ofRods]

Interesting from Wikipedia- "The story also speaks of mob psychology and the idea that people can abandon reason and act cruelly if they are part of a large group of people behaving in the same manner."

and then there is this- Shirley Jackson said in later years she received letters "People at first were not so much concerned with what the story meant; what they wanted to know was where these lotteries were held, and whether they could go there and watch."— Shirley Jackson, "Come along with me"[3] Jackson, Shirley; Hyman, Stanley Edgar (1968). Come Along with Me; Part of a Novel, Sixteen Stories, and Three Lectures (2nd ed.). New York: Viking Press. ISBN 9780670231584.

Wow.

Of course, I'm very interested in mobs/groups of people behaving in an antisocial manner because others are visibly also doing so. That's what we've got here, in various places. The restauranteur who banned anyone from wearing a mask inside their establishment is clearly motivated by like-minded people (all of whom are crazy, IMO - shouldn't everyone be aware that it violates ADA to tell someone they can't use a mask - or a cane - or a wheelchair - or a cast - or a hairnet?)

People are abandoning reason. To me, that means they are secretly scared of CoVid, but have learned that anger and irrationality is how to behave if you're terrified (makes evolutionary sense in some way, I guess).

I can't wait to find out, along about next October, what number of people have CV19 antibodies and in which parts of the nation. Looks like New York and its burroughs may have as many as 14% with antibodies. Still no good studies on whether the asymptomatic develop lasting antibodies (but early studies suggest that many of them do).

14% is a start. Not nearly enough for people who work in crowded office buildings. I read yesterday that 450,000 New Yorkers have fled, and businesses employing up to 700,000 are planning to move out. Then, of course, there is the longer term "work from home" group - and so, downsizing of office space now planned.

Real estate in New York may not continue to go up and up, as expected. Fascinating "crowd effects," but in this case, not irrational.

Humans are endlessly fascinating.

 

[10ofRods]

Death and despair as Covid migrants flee cities

Coronavirus India: Death and despair as migrant workers flee cities
India’s strict lockdown to halt the spread of coronavirus meant that most factories and businesses shut down, rendering millions jobless.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi appealed to businesses to keep paying their workers, including daily-wage labourers.

But that didn’t happen, and most of the workers were left with little money and food.

With no prospect of income, they took long journeys to go back to their villages. Some managed to get transport, but those who couldn’t, walked hundreds of miles.

And some of them never made it home as they died because of exhaustion or in accidents.

The BBC’s Vikas Pandey and Anshul Verma report.

Or they died, untested and untreated, of CoVid.

 

[CharlestonGal]

This is a really good idea, although there were a handful of protestors in my city yesterday, insisting that having to provide ID to go to some businesses (there's a casino-like thing at the far end of town) was a violation of their rights.

There are a few restaurants on the Central Coast that have always required reservations made by an app - or by phone call if you're staying on the hotel premises. IOW, they have been able to "contact trace" for a long time. The main point of contact tracing is to warn people that they have been exposed and may now be silently infecting others. It's the height of selfishness, IMO, to be unwilling to do that small public service to save people's lives - and to save them from suffering.

I think ticketmaster will emphasize their ability to do this. Concerts and theater are certainly going to continue to be hard hit.

This morning, in my city (a county authorized to go to Stage Whatever - 3?) in California, people are sort of social distancing at the beach (where I personally believe risk is super low). The outlet mall is opening up. The list of procedures limits the number in each store (usually not crowded unless there are Asian tour buses, which there are not), blocks off every other toilet stall, requires that when the customer limit is exceeded that people stand outside six feet apart OR wait in their cars and get texted. Employees must wear masks when interacting with customers (I'd make them wear masks all the time they're in the shop - and I bet most retailers will do that). Food court will be supervised by designated employees to ensure every other table is used and to direct people to safe tables if necessary, refusing entry until some have left (usually not that crowded).

SO. We are down to our lowest level of people in ICU (13 countywide, down from 15 yesterday). No new admissions yesterday.

We went to the park to see my younger daughter (without hugs), whom I haven't seen since February, and my granddaughter (felt very strange not to really have a good conversation with her - but we kept our distance). So both daughters were there, girls got to play, people social distanced, I had my mask at the ready if huffing and puffing strangers came by (and got scolded by DH for crushing it when I pulled it down on my neck and I hated wearing it, can't breathe well, and it got caught in my hair)

That's the full report of Day 1-2 of reopening here.

"Violates their rights"? Seems that nary a one has ever even glanced at the bill of rights, much less read them.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Coronavirus hijacks cells in unique ways that suggest how to treat it - STAT

How CD hijacks cell- the more we learn about this virus, the scarier it gets.

That is seriously interesting. Thank you!

 

[10ofRods]

What's the issue with bathrooms? I honestly don't know.

People got concerned when it was found that there's CV19 in feces. However, in no past coronavirus/MERS/SARS outbreak has that been a major vector so for me, personally, it's only the small space of bathrooms and the fact that some mildly symptomatic people go to them to blow their noses, cough or sneeze. I have a chronic cough since I underwent a non-Covid intubation in January. It's better, but apparently can take up to a year to resolve. I do not cough in front of people. I go into another room - and if it was possible, a bathroom. If I were also carrying CoVid, well, you see the problem.

We're pondering this one a lot. DH is already a moderate germophobe. I've convinced him that with gloves, wipes and mask he could ponder using a public restroom. We both agree that we need to practice our mask on/off procedures (I truly think he should use a disposable mask for this type of thing). Take gloves off outside near car, dispose in available trash can? Something like that. Oh, and have some kind of wraparound glasses - I suggested to him that he go Steampunk and just get goggles (toilets aerosolize when they flush, so...you can see the concern; particles in an enclosed volume like a bathroom with a long line waiting could easily provide a viral load from sneezing, coughing, etc).

There's more on this topic but it's kind of gross.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Interesting from Wikipedia- "The story also speaks of mob psychology and the idea that people can abandon reason and act cruelly if they are part of a large group of people behaving in the same manner."

and then there is this- Shirley Jackson said in later years she received letters "People at first were not so much concerned with what the story meant; what they wanted to know was where these lotteries were held, and whether they could go there and watch."— Shirley Jackson, "Come along with me"[3] Jackson, Shirley; Hyman, Stanley Edgar (1968). Come Along with Me; Part of a Novel, Sixteen Stories, and Three Lectures (2nd ed.). New York: Viking Press. ISBN 9780670231584.

I think of lot of mob mentality comes from basic deindividuation. I think that goes for people who buy into conspiracy theories as well. I've seen a lot of that around lately, too.

 

[COSCitizen]

People got concerned when it was found that there's CV19 in feces. However, in no past coronavirus/MERS/SARS outbreak has that been a major vector so for me, personally, it's only the small space of bathrooms and the fact that some mildly symptomatic people go to them to blow their noses, cough or sneeze. I have a chronic cough since I underwent a non-Covid intubation in January. It's better, but apparently can take up to a year to resolve. I do not cough in front of people. I go into another room - and if it was possible, a bathroom. If I were also carrying CoVid, well, you see the problem.

We're pondering this one a lot. DH is already a moderate germophobe. I've convinced him that with gloves, wipes and mask he could ponder using a public restroom. We both agree that we need to practice our mask on/off procedures (I truly think he should use a disposable mask for this type of thing). Take gloves off outside near car, dispose in available trash can? Something like that. Oh, and have some kind of wraparound glasses - I suggested to him that he go Steampunk and just get goggles (toilets aerosolize when they flush, so...you can see the concern; particles in an enclosed volume like a bathroom with a long line waiting could easily provide a viral load from sneezing, coughing, etc).

There's more on this topic but it's kind of gross.

I recall that there was a lot of speculation early on that one of the reasons for the high rate of infection in cruise ships was because of the nature of their toilet arrangements it what is a very small space.

 

[musicaljoke]

Looks fine to me. NC has 737 deaths in 10.49 million people. No reason for anyone who's likely to be out in public to worry about being out in public imo.

On Jan 24, the WHO reported 846 confirmed cases worldwide. Six days later, the WHO declared a pandemic. The World Health Organisation has been criticised for not declaring a pandemic quickly enough.

At the moment, NC has 10,943 active cases with 500 new cases today.

So, is the WHO being unfairly criticised, or is there good reason to be concerned about being out in public?

COVID-19 situation reports

 

[Kaley Smith]

Was trying to control the pandemic with a period of shut down just a wasted effort and expense?

Not for my province. We've pretty much stamped it out with only 17 cases left and no Covid patients in any of our hospitals. It was a united effort though, and I feel so sorry for people in States or provinces where so many people only care about themselves. I will give you examples of how we policed ourselves. Here are comments from my FB friends, neighbourhood group and family over the past months to each other and a couple to me. "You went for a drive with your sister? You can't distance in the car Kaley!" "Stay the F home people! I want to see my granddaughter in June on her 4th birthday!" "I saw some of you lined up outside the Co-op Saturday, and many weren't 6 ft apart. Smarten up!" "I know we're allowed to visit on the patio, but maybe we should wait until June just to be sure Kaley." "We can't have the grandkids at Mom's 80th birthday party. We have to keep it under 10 people." "I heard you were driving around all over big guy. What are you doin' man? Do we have to put up roadblocks to keep you at home? " As someone said, at times in Manitoba it felt like you could hardly move without getting heck, but now we're reaping the rewards, and it feels good. Social pressure from peers works!

 

[CharlestonGal]

People got concerned when it was found that there's CV19 in feces. However, in no past coronavirus/MERS/SARS outbreak has that been a major vector so for me, personally, it's only the small space of bathrooms and the fact that some mildly symptomatic people go to them to blow their noses, cough or sneeze. I have a chronic cough since I underwent a non-Covid intubation in January. It's better, but apparently can take up to a year to resolve. I do not cough in front of people. I go into another room - and if it was possible, a bathroom. If I were also carrying CoVid, well, you see the problem.

We're pondering this one a lot. DH is already a moderate germophobe. I've convinced him that with gloves, wipes and mask he could ponder using a public restroom. We both agree that we need to practice our mask on/off procedures (I truly think he should use a disposable mask for this type of thing). Take gloves off outside near car, dispose in available trash can? Something like that. Oh, and have some kind of wraparound glasses - I suggested to him that he go Steampunk and just get goggles (toilets aerosolize when they flush, so...you can see the concern; particles in an enclosed volume like a bathroom with a long line waiting could easily provide a viral load from sneezing, coughing, etc).

There's more on this topic but it's kind of gross.

Wouldn't gastric enzymes easily compromise the lipid envelope though? I imagine all that would be left in feces would be RNA particles? Or is it shedding from the epithelium of the bowel itself?

 

[tabitha111]

Thank you. I've always been one to sit back and learn from other people's mistakes rather than learning the hard way by making those mistakes myself.

That is the premise of many safety rules in the Navy, you learned that most rules were "written in blood" by others so you could do things safer. (retired Navy veteran here)

 

[firebird]

On Jan 24, the WHO reported 846 confirmed cases worldwide. Six days later, the WHO declared a pandemic. The World Health Organisation has been criticised for not declaring a pandemic quickly enough.

At the moment, NC has 10,943 active cases with 500 new cases today.

So, is the WHO being unfairly criticised, or is there good reason to be concerned about being out in public?

COVID-19 situation reports

What the WHO did or didn’t do has nothing to do with the indisputable fact that NC currently has 737 Covid deaths out of 10.49 million people. An infinitesimal risk that wouldn’t stop most people from doing a single thing. Jmo

 

[CharlestonGal]

On Jan 24, the WHO reported 846 confirmed cases worldwide. Six days later, the WHO declared a pandemic. The World Health Organisation has been criticised for not declaring a pandemic quickly enough.

At the moment, NC has 10,943 active cases with 500 new cases today.

So, is the WHO being unfairly criticised, or is there good reason to be concerned about being out in public?

COVID-19 situation reports

I'm thinking the WHO was dead on considering we now have 5,466,634 cases worldwide in less than 4 months. And international travel is now nearly universally banned worldwide as well. Does the WHO have some problems? Yeah. Can they see a pandemic staring them in the face? Oh, yeah. I think by now nearly every government on the globe acknowledges we have a real problem and are mindful of WHO guidance on how best to deal with it. Thank goodness.

 

[musicaljoke]

Not for my province. We've pretty much stamped it out with only 17 cases left and no Covid patients in any of our hospitals. It was a united effort though, and I feel so sorry for people in States or provinces where so many people only care about themselves. I will give you examples of how we policed ourselves. Here are comments from my FB friends, neighbourhood group and family over the past months. "You went for a drive with your sister? You can't distance in the car Kaley!" "Stay the F home people! I want to see my granddaughter in June on her 4th birthday!" "I saw some of you lined up outside the Co-op Saturday, and many weren't 6 ft apart. Smarten up!" "I know we're allowed to visit on the patio, but maybe we should wait until June just to be sure Kaley." "We can't have the grandkids at Mom's 80th birthday party. We have to keep it under 10 people." "I heard you were driving around all over big guy. What are you doin' man? Do we have to put up roadblocks to keep you at home? " As someone said, at times in Manitoba it felt like you could hardly move without getting heck, but now we're reaping the rewards, and it feels good. Social pressure from peers works!

Oh I love you! I love that people held onto the goal of eradicating the virus completely. Wow, only 17 cases left in the entire province! Manitoba is making the country proud ... same with New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, the Yukon, the NWT, Saskatchewan, and Inuvik.

Boo hiss for Ontario and Quebec.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Not for my province. We've pretty much stamped it out with only 17 cases left and no Covid patients in any of our hospitals. It was a united effort though, and I feel so sorry for people in States or provinces where so many people only care about themselves. I will give you examples of how we policed ourselves. Here are comments from my FB friends, neighbourhood group and family over the past months to each other and a couple to me. "You went for a drive with your sister? You can't distance in the car Kaley!" "Stay the F home people! I want to see my granddaughter in June on her 4th birthday!" "I saw some of you lined up outside the Co-op Saturday, and many weren't 6 ft apart. Smarten up!" "I know we're allowed to visit on the patio, but maybe we should wait until June just to be sure Kaley." "We can't have the grandkids at Mom's 80th birthday party. We have to keep it under 10 people." "I heard you were driving around all over big guy. What are you doin' man? Do we have to put up roadblocks to keep you at home? " As someone said, at times in Manitoba it felt like you could hardly move without getting heck, but now we're reaping the rewards, and it feels good. Social pressure from peers works!

I feel sorry for us in the States, too. We should have been able to get this right, but that ship sailed back in February. It's like putting toothpaste back in the tube at this point.

 

[CharlestonGal]

That is the premise of many safety rules in the Navy, you learned that most rules were "written in blood" by others so you could do things safer. (retired Navy veteran here)

GMTA. Retired Air Force, here. Thanks for your service, from one veteran to another!

 

[10ofRods]

Not for my province. We've pretty much stamped it out with only 17 cases left and no Covid patients in any of our hospitals. It was a united effort though, and I feel so sorry for people in States or provinces where so many people only care about themselves. I will give you examples of how we policed ourselves. Here are comments from my FB friends, neighbourhood group and family over the past months to each other and a couple to me. "You went for a drive with your sister? You can't distance in the car Kaley!" "Stay the F home people! I want to see my granddaughter in June on her 4th birthday!" "I saw some of you lined up outside the Co-op Saturday, and many weren't 6 ft apart. Smarten up!" "I know we're allowed to visit on the patio, but maybe we should wait until June just to be sure Kaley." "We can't have the grandkids at Mom's 80th birthday party. We have to keep it under 10 people." "I heard you were driving around all over big guy. What are you doin' man? Do we have to put up roadblocks to keep you at home? " As someone said, at times in Manitoba it felt like you could hardly move without getting heck, but now we're reaping the rewards, and it feels good. Social pressure from peers works!

Yeah, and not for my county of residence, either. We got our first 2 cases from cruise ship passengers "quarantined" at a Navy installation - but that installation did not have a hospital suitable for intensive care, so off to the County Hospital and then we were off to the races (but we still have one of the lowest per capita rates in California - and actually, in the nation). I shut my own classes down starting March 10 (asked every person who had any sort of symptom or who had been around anyone with symptoms to leave and do their work on line, and offered "grade support" while they adapted. Half the class left. Husband did something similar.

We had started grocery delivery before that.

We made some hard decisions about who to include in our quarantine "pod" and so did many others. People in my neighborhood have been scrupulous about social distancing, but at the pharmacy, people are terrible about masks, so we're probably and reluctantly going to switch to Amazon's Rx system and our little local pharmacy is already struggling. I'm waiting on that - no Rx's due for a month.

I'm okay with sitting in a park, socially distanced, from all my self-quarantined family members. That was just yesterday - but with steadily declining cases in my city, ICU admissions dropping, etc, I do think the shutdown saved many lives, many medical professionals, etc.

Among the dead, worldwide, are far too many nurses, doctors and other medical professionals. The people who got this and are still seriously ill a month out...really disturbing. Our overall hospital admissions here have been quite low.

I think that's a good thing. I was also surprised at the huge number of employers who found ways for people to work at home.

 

[tresir2012]

Death and despair as Covid migrants flee cities

Coronavirus India: Death and despair as migrant workers flee cities
India’s strict lockdown to halt the spread of coronavirus meant that most factories and businesses shut down, rendering millions jobless.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi appealed to businesses to keep paying their workers, including daily-wage labourers.

But that didn’t happen, and most of the workers were left with little money and food.

With no prospect of income, they took long journeys to go back to their villages. Some managed to get transport, but those who couldn’t, walked hundreds of miles.

And some of them never made it home as they died because of exhaustion or in accidents.

The BBC’s Vikas Pandey and Anshul Verma report.

Wow.

Of course, I'm very interested in mobs/groups of people behaving in an antisocial manner because others are visibly also doing so. That's what we've got here, in various places. The restauranteur who banned anyone from wearing a mask inside their establishment is clearly motivated by like-minded people (all of whom are crazy, IMO - shouldn't everyone be aware that it violates ADA to tell someone they can't use a mask - or a cane - or a wheelchair - or a cast - or a hairnet?)

People are abandoning reason. To me, that means they are secretly scared of CoVid, but have learned that anger and irrationality is how to behave if you're terrified (makes evolutionary sense in some way, I guess).

I can't wait to find out, along about next October, what number of people have CV19 antibodies and in which parts of the nation. Looks like New York and its burroughs may have as many as 14% with antibodies. Still no good studies on whether the asymptomatic develop lasting antibodies (but early studies suggest that many of them do).

14% is a start. Not nearly enough for people who work in crowded office buildings. I read yesterday that 450,000 New Yorkers have fled, and businesses employing up to 700,000 are planning to move out. Then, of course, there is the longer term "work from home" group - and so, downsizing of office space now planned.

Real estate in New York may not continue to go up and up, as expected. Fascinating "crowd effects," but in this case, not irrational.

Humans are endlessly fascinating.

"I read yesterday that 450,000 New Yorkers have fled, and businesses employing up to 700,000 are planning to move out."

You have mentioned people leaving New York and other Metropolitan areas before. I wondered if you can provide the link you read yesterday?

 

[CharlestonGal]

What the WHO did or didn’t do has nothing to do with the indisputable fact that NC currently has 737 Covid deaths out of 10.49 million people. An infinitesimal risk that wouldn’t stop most people from doing a single thing. Jmo

Well, for those 737 people their chances of dying turned out to be 100%.

737 is not just an inconsequential number. It's 737 people. 345,600 people worldwide. To blithely minimize those people's lives is the height of insensitivity.

 

[10ofRods]

Not for my province. We've pretty much stamped it out with only 17 cases left and no Covid patients in any of our hospitals. It was a united effort though, and I feel so sorry for people in States or provinces where so many people only care about themselves. I will give you examples of how we policed ourselves. Here are comments from my FB friends, neighbourhood group and family over the past months to each other and a couple to me. "You went for a drive with your sister? You can't distance in the car Kaley!" "Stay the F home people! I want to see my granddaughter in June on her 4th birthday!" "I saw some of you lined up outside the Co-op Saturday, and many weren't 6 ft apart. Smarten up!" "I know we're allowed to visit on the patio, but maybe we should wait until June just to be sure Kaley." "We can't have the grandkids at Mom's 80th birthday party. We have to keep it under 10 people." "I heard you were driving around all over big guy. What are you doin' man? Do we have to put up roadblocks to keep you at home? " As someone said, at times in Manitoba it felt like you could hardly move without getting heck, but now we're reaping the rewards, and it feels good. Social pressure from peers works!

Yeah, but you're in polite-land. On our first outing to a pick-up restaurant, it was only men in line. All were obeying the rules - except one (unmasked, furthermore). Tried to cut in line, didn't follow the rule about phoning in the order, kept cutting in front of people picking up their food in this tiny lobby space. One man asked him to go outside. He did, then came back in (in front of my husband, who was in the lobby space paying). Husband asked him to leave. Then I noticed the looks on the faces of all four masked men. Angry. We managed to leave before the homeless guy (a fixture in that shopping center) decided to wander in between my car and the next one and into the middle of the 5 men, 4 of whom looked SO angry but no one was saying anything. What I saw was a potential for yelling, no polite reminders.

I guess when idiots can't read others' faces, they may not pay heed - but frankly, here in SoCal there are a fairly large group of people who are intentionally antagonising others. At our only public gathering place, near a public building, yesterday about 40-50 were out, unmasked, and forcing other people to walk through their huddle just to get to a nearby bus stop (the people forced to this were elderly and/or with other signs of risk). The "protesters" were, except for 2-3, all pretty young. I understand why they don't care/don't think they can get it (and it's unlikely anyone was exposed yesterday), but all the yelling! The rudeness!

(SoCal didn't used to be this way - and I may add that all of the protesters looked white and middle class, judging by skin tone and sneakers).