Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[MistyWaters]

At the 14:06 point of the video linked above the caller asks Becky Patti about an eyewitness of BG at 3:15 leaving. Becky Patti confirms that LE had told her there was an eye witness who saw BG leaving. But Becky is unsure about the 3:15 time frame the caller is referring to? Becky make’s it plain that the LE said nothing about 3:15.Grey Hughes then hijacks (my opinion)the dialogue and rehashs everything. I wish Grey would have given Becky a chance to have been given the final word to the caller.Both Grey and Becky indicate there are some questions that will be left unanswered to protect the investigation.


Falling down the sighting of BG that the LE shared with Becky Patti (in my link above) leaving has haunted me for a year.

I can’t let go of the theory that this was how BG exited the CS.Or perhaps a slightly different route that still exited from the cemetery.

I would like someone to critique my post. Please!Any criticism of my theory would be considered constructive and helpful.

My Opinion

There are several photos of the cemetery used as a parking lot for many police and support vehicles while officers and other specialists were actively investigating the crime. By parking there, they’d also have entered and exited the crime scene and bridge area by using that path.

For that reason, I think it was already known that route was not used by the perp. An area cannot be thoroughly and carefully processed for evidence while it’s being used as an access route to a crime scene by many.

 

[MizStery]

For that reason, I think it was already known that route was not used by the perp.

Thank-you for for your attention to detail. I appreciate MistyWaters that you have been here since the beginning and faithfully kept Abby and Libby’s thread going.

Oh there are just so many things that haunt me about the tragic horrific murders of Libby and Abby.

My Opinion

 

[sunshineray]

I think it all depends on your perspective. In many cases, silence tends to be an indication of the investigation progressing. I have actually read that new conferences are usually pleas for information from the public. So you could be correct.

However, I have a different perspective. I think the silence in this case is an indication that time has proved the direction of the investigation wrong. No press conferences are more of an indication in this case that LE has nothing and does not want to answer the questions that will be posed to them about their sketches and the investigation. So they wait, either to find the tip that might help them solve the case or hope enough time passes that it will eventually come in to their office. Because of the volume of tips they are given time. But eventually time is probably what is going to cause people to question whether they really do have any idea about who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. By that time, I think the discussion will probably have gotten a lot quieter too.

I remember it took a long time in the Rhoden Family case. There was a period of no communication from LE and everyone got discouraged. Instead of LE saying we need just one more clue, the Ohio State AG was fond of talking about needing one more piece of the puzzle. Hopefully they will catch Abby and Libby's killer and lock him up soon.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

Quoted bbm

Great point! Just to add... I think these electronic timestamps on the video/audio are what very quickly prompted LE to state that the man on the bridge was a suspect.

Libby's shoe being found on the south side also would be a solid indicator as to where they crossed the creek to get to the north side.

JMO

Good point about the shoe, I had forgotten about it. I also wonder if the footprints were found in the mud coming up the creek bank on the other side. Most people think this is the way they went so I don’t know why it has to be a secret but I guess they have their reasons. MOO

 

[MizStery]

I apologize if this has already been covered in a previous thread. My topic search didn’t find a match.

Pure conjecture on my part;LE has not confirmed the existence of DNA. Does anyone think the reason the the FBI realized the significance of releasing the YBG sketch had to do with DNA from the CS?I read recently using DNA the ability exists to provide a limited age range for that person. We have not been told if they have DNA from BG.But just for a moment say they did;could that have tipped them off that BG was younger than what the 1st FBI sketch suggested?



My opinion

 

[paulwalkermd]

First post-I’ve never been to Delphi, don’t know anyone involved, but it’s torn me up since the beginning. I know so many here are disheartened and discouraged as this case has taken so long! I signed up to specifically say...this week there has been A LOT of news on social media, specifically FB live. I really encourage people to dig into researching this as some of the girls that have put there lives on the line to tell the truth. Also, in other news, Carroll Superior Judge Kurtis Fouts mailed his resignation letter to Indiana Gov. Eric Holcomb on June 3, effective July 31. Weird

 

[Yemelyan]

I apologize if this has already been covered in a previous thread. My topic search didn’t find a match.

Pure conjecture on my part;LE has not confirmed the existence of DNA. Does anyone think the reason the the FBI realized the significance of releasing the YBG sketch had to do with DNA from the CS?I read recently using DNA the ability exists to provide a limited age range for that person. We have not been told if they have DNA from BG.But just for a moment say they did;could that have tipped them off that BG was younger than what the 1st FBI sketch suggested?



My opinion

The use of DNA to make age projections has been discussed here by previously. Maybe a search on "DNA methylation" will bring up those posts for you. In my opinion, this type of projection is more a theoretical type of thing that can be done rather than something any crime lab is doing in practice. Parabon, for example, does not offer this as part of their analysis.

There are numerous technical issues with all methods (there are a couple of ways it could be done) of DNA age projection that render it unreliable as of the technology that exists right now.

 

[MizStery]

The use of DNA to make age projections has been discussed here by previously

Thanks for the helpful suggestion. I will do a new search.

In my opinion, this type of projection is more a theoretical type of thing that can be done rather than something any crime lab is doing in practice. Parabon, for example, does not offer this as part of their analysis.

That was exactly what I was trying to ask. Your answer is very much appreciated.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There are several photos of the cemetery used as a parking lot for many police and support vehicles while officers and other specialists were actively investigating the crime. By parking there, they’d also have entered and exited the crime scene and bridge area by using that path.

For that reason, I think it was already known that route was not used by the perp. An area cannot be thoroughly and carefully processed for evidence while it’s being used as an access route to a crime scene by many.

That is a fascinating thought!
Early on LE was asking people if they had seen anyone walking along a highway or road, hitchhiking, or carrying a duffle bag. I don’t ever remember LE mentioning any type of vehicle until the 2019 press conference. It would seem then that at least early on, LE thought the killer left the crime scene on foot. Did they change their minds? Maybe the 2019 car was related to some other witness or piece of evidence.
But your thought that police KNEW how the killer left makes a ton of sense. It may be one of those puzzle pieces they do not want to disclose.
I do think he walked off. After MistyWaters’ suggestion, I think LE knows which direction he took and they think it matters enough to keep it to themselves.

 

[JnRyan]

I don't believe this is the first offense this killer has committed. If not murder, then maybe rape or other sexual offense. This would really be a bombshell, if a previously untested rape kit from 5 or 6 years ago is tested and there is connection to this murder. Especially if there is other evidence at that scene that would have helped LE here had they known.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't believe this is the first offense this killer has committed. If not murder, then maybe rape or other sexual offense. This would really be a bombshell, if a previously untested rape kit from 5 or 6 years ago is tested and there is connection to this murder. Especially if there is other evidence at that scene that would have helped LE here had they known.

Excellent post; ICAM.
The untested rape kits still collecting dust speak loudly to the second class status women still have in our country. A nations disgrace.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

Good point about the shoe, I had forgotten about it. I also wonder if the footprints were found in the mud coming up the creek bank on the other side. Most people think this is the way they went so I don’t know why it has to be a secret but I guess they have their reasons. MOO

There's a picture with this article (when swiping the 5th pic) that shows a detective looking at an area of deer creek embankment. Seems the area he's focusing on in the image it where the higher up turf meets the falling away dirt. To my eye the area looks disturbed but who knows if that's actually where they crossed.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held

 

[sunshineray]

I apologize if this has already been covered in a previous thread. My topic search didn’t find a match.

Pure conjecture on my part;LE has not confirmed the existence of DNA. Does anyone think the reason the the FBI realized the significance of releasing the YBG sketch had to do with DNA from the CS?I read recently using DNA the ability exists to provide a limited age range for that person. We have not been told if they have DNA from BG.But just for a moment say they did;could that have tipped them off that BG was younger than what the 1st FBI sketch suggested?



My opinion

The science has been around quite awhile. I found one article from 2010 about Dutch research into telling age from DNA. This one is from 2015 and is a really good read, explains it all. It's possible that science is even more refined now.
Understanding Genetics

 

[MistyWaters]

The science has been around quite awhile. I found one article from 2010 about Dutch research into telling age from DNA. This one is from 2015 and is a really good read, explains it all. It's possible that science is even more refined now.
Understanding Genetics

According to this link, the science is still in the early stages. It requires DNA from blood, the minimum quantity and maximum time period to obtain a testable sample is uncertain.

It might now be possible to tell someone's age from blood at a crime scene

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I'd bet you are right!

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

bbm

And what were they looking for the first day/days?
Why time to be there (job) on a Monday?
What time exactly on the trail?
Whether on the bridge also? When exactly?
Where living (address)?
From where arrived (route)?
Where parked a car?
What car?
Other cars there?
With someone in accompaniment or not?
With whom?
What purpose being there?
Why visiting there of all places?
Since when known of the area with trails/bridge/creek/woods/village?
Connection to Delphi?
Knowing people from Delphi?
Someone seen there, who behaved suspect?
Something (noise, voices) heard in the area?
People encountered in the area?
Someone spoken to in the area?

and, and, ......

If they knew BG (well-known and "local"), I'm sure, they wouldn't have asked all the questions, but had a nice talk about some things only. Understandable. MOO

 

[somequestions]

I remember it took a long time in the Rhoden Family case. There was a period of no communication from LE and everyone got discouraged. Instead of LE saying we need just one more clue, the Ohio State AG was fond of talking about needing one more piece of the puzzle. Hopefully they will catch Abby and Libby's killer and lock him up soon.

I hope so too. This case could be solved today if police get the right tip.

 

[sunshineray]

According to this link, the science is still in the early stages. It requires DNA from blood, the minimum quantity and maximum time period to obtain a testable sample is uncertain.

It might now be possible to tell someone's age from blood at a crime scene

Yes there were limitations. That was 5 years ago though so hopefully that whole science has developed and improved.

 

[BigTexas]

Yes there were limitations. That was 5 years ago though so hopefully that whole science has developed and improved.

Where's Elon Musk when you need him? =)

 

[MizStery]

Libby had expressed an ambition to be a science teacher or a crime scene investigator, and she even attended extra science classes outside of school at Purdue University. I believe her sister also took classes at Purdue.

On any of our threads have we discussed the distinct possibility if either sister could have fostered a type of mentor who perhaps also taught at Purdue? If not a mentor than a familiar professor who in addition could have taken an interest in also participating in community lectures?

In many areas of the country there are programs for local youth to meet with community leaders and thus intern or perhaps even foster a career focused ‘relationship‘ with interested professionals.

I am not pushing the theory that BG targeted either Libby or Abby. But in the interest of discussion could this be a remote possibility?

BG from the little we heard from the audio is very controlled.I would defiantly put him in the category of a person who had been trained in martial arts or a person of authority.
An example:
This is a brief description of the skill I refer to:

The person who remains calm while others panic is centered. Centering is the opposite of being scattered. Be centered and you will not freeze or flap. To flap means to move fast and frantically doing irrelevant things but nothing that will help the situation, kind of like a hog on ice—lots of squealing, legs and hooves every which way but no forward motion. Indecision can be just as deadly as not having a clue.​

BG appeared to be in total control from what we hear from Libby’s cell phone audio.

I am rambling. I need to to go back to my notes and refresh my memory on a few details before I post again.

‘My Opinion

I apologize but I just need to add my beloved husband passed in 2017. He graduated from Purdue in Electrical Engineering. Purdue is top tier school and everyone in Indiana should be very proud PU is in your home state.

 

[Yemelyan]

Libby had expressed an ambition to be a science teacher or a crime scene investigator, and she even attended extra science classes outside of school at Purdue University. I believe her sister also took classes at Purdue.

On any of our threads have we discussed the distinct possibility if either sister could have fostered a type of mentor who perhaps also taught at Purdue? If not a mentor than a familiar professor who in addition could have taken an interest in also participating in community lectures?

In many areas of the country there are programs for local youth to meet with community leaders and thus intern or perhaps even foster a career focused ‘relationship‘ with interested professionals.

I am not pushing the theory that BG targeted either Libby or Abby. But in the interest of discussion could this be a remote possibility?

BG from the little we heard from the audio is very controlled.I would defiantly put him in the category of a person who had been trained in martial arts or a person of authority.
An example:
This is a brief description of the skill I refer to:

The person who remains calm while others panic is centered. Centering is the opposite of being scattered. Be centered and you will not freeze or flap. To flap means to move fast and frantically doing irrelevant things but nothing that will help the situation, kind of like a hog on ice—lots of squealing, legs and hooves every which way but no forward motion. Indecision can be just as deadly as not having a clue.​

BG appeared to be in total control from what we hear from Libby’s cell phone audio.

I am rambling. I need to to go back to my notes and refresh my memory on a few details before I post again.

‘My Opinion

A note on the Purdue classes...Libby's sister only transferred to Purdue at some point after the murders, before that she was a student at a different college.

IIRC Libby attended an enrichment camp of sorts at Purdue. It featured different themed weeks where kids her age could learn in depth about science topics. I imagine the program directors would have been able to tell LE exactly who was working with kids or able to come in contact with them. At the time I looked into this you could still see the program schedule online and get a sense of how it was run. She definitely was not mixing in with the general student population as part of the program.