CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #73

[Seattle1]

There is no statute of limitations for murder. It's also not necessary for CW to appeal his conviction for NK to be charged in relation to this horrific crime. If there was any evidence that NK committed a chargeable offense here that the prosecution believed they could prove beyond a reasonable doubt, I think they would have done so. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

But it didn't stop her pursuing him. I take what NK said in her interviews with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, I think that was the basis for her telling Chris to make sure he wanted the divorce when he joined his family in NC. Naturally she wouldn't admit it, but from what she revealed in her interviews I think she wanted to test him. She was insecure and it gave her confidence, knowing he was willing to give up a beautiful woman for her. While he was with his wife and kids and in-laws, she sent him pictures to remind him of what he was missing.

IMO

 

[magicforest]

It was so clear from day one CW had done something to SW. IMO LE didn’t investigate as thoroughly as they might have. For starters they let CW spend the night alone in the house the day SW and the girls went missing. Plus I don’t think they ever fingerprinted inside the house to see if anyone else might have been present. They also didn’t investigate NK (or anyone else for that matter) the way they would have if they had no proof CW killed them.

And it happened so fast. Monday afternoon SW is reported missing. Word didn’t even get out publicly until Tuesday. Wednesday night CW was at the police station and confessed. SW and the girls were recovered by the weekend.

LE isn’t interested in reopening the NK worm can. Not at all. The Watts case was clinically traumatic for many of the investigators. The lead detective has been quite candid about the impact the case has had on him. Not only did he leave law enforcement permanently but his PTSD is so bad his hair fell out in patches. He’s still barely able to leave his house because he breaks down at the sight of little girls. I’m sure he’s not the only one suffering. I imagine the mere thought of asking the original investigators ( and every officer in the dept was part it) to dive back into that nightmare would be extremely hard

Plus, consensus is LE did a great job in the case. CW was in jail within 72 hours of the crime and on his way to prison for life 3 months later. It was a big win for LE in that small town. Reopening the investigation might tarnish the win.

Those are two possible reasons that might explain why LE is adamant they won’t investigate NK.

And there may be one more. I have no hard evidence to support this but have a hunch part of CW’s plea deal was an agreement that LE would immediately and permanently cease any investigation involving NK. It would explain quite a bit IMO.

@Colorado303 Do you think CW is willing to now throw NK under the bus in order to attempt to get out of prison?

 

[Seenit]

Actually, NK approached the police only after LE had contacted Anadarko HR about her. I’ve always been under the impression she heard about the HR inquiry and only then decided to “go to the police”. Despite what she told LE, she didn’t go to police proactively to help but to position herself as best as possible knowing she had been discovered.

If she had been sincere about wanting to help LE certainly she wouldn’t have a) deleted text messages to/from CW b) asked friends to delete all messages mentioning him or c) googled “How much $ did Amber Frey make on her book?”.

Colorado303, I am sure this was discussed a long time ago, but did you actually know CW? If so, what was your impression of him at first....and now knowing 20/20?

 

[Colorado303]

@Colorado303 Do you think CW is willing to now throw NK under the bus in order to attempt to get out of prison?

I honestly don’t know. I’m sure he’s being encouraged to by his family, but other than saying if he hadn’t met NK none if this would have happened (and one author claiming he told her NK was into some really dark stuff) it seems he hasn’t accused her of anything.

He may become desperate enough to get there eventually, but it would be a waste of time. After falsely claiming SW killed the girls, for anyone to believe him he’d need indisputable proof NK was involved.
And even if true, I doubt he has any. LE already has his electronic records and any crime scene evidence he might point to is probably long gone.

Plus, even if she was an accomplice and he can prove it, unless the proof was newly discovered it will get him nowhere. CO law prohibits a defendant from using withheld info as grounds for an appeal.

I have no idea if NK was an accomplice or not. Either way There are plenty of reasons CW might not play that card:

1. He still loves her and wants to “protect” her. Not because he cares about her but because it helps justify what he’s done in his own mind.

2. NK knows stuff and he’s desperate what she knows never comes to light. And as @Nikynoo suspects, medical records might be part of it. CW filed to keep medical records from the court, and shortly after that request was denied CW unexpectedly proposed a plea deal. With no trial, the medical records never entered evidence.

3). He wants to accuse her but his lawyer explains even if she’s found guilty of something CW will still rot in jail.

 

[hpruitt]

@Colo

I honestly don’t know. I’m sure he’s being encouraged to by his family, but other than saying if he hadn’t met NK none if this would have happened (and one author claiming he told her NK was into some really dark stuff) it seems he hasn’t accused her of anything.

He may become desperate enough to get there eventually, but it would be a waste of time. After falsely claiming SW killed the girls, for anyone to believe him he’d need indisputable proof NK was involved.
And even if true, I doubt he has any. LE already has his electronic records and any crime scene evidence he might point to is probably long gone.

Plus, even if she was an accomplice and he can prove it, unless the proof was newly discovered it will get him nowhere. CO law prohibits a defendant from using withheld info as grounds for an appeal.

I have no idea if NK was an accomplice or not. Either way There are plenty of reasons CW might not play that card:

1. He still loves her and wants to “protect” her. Not because he cares about her but because it helps justify what he’s done in his own mind.

2. NK knows stuff and he’s desperate what she knows never comes to light. And as @Nikynoo suspects, medical records might be part of it. CW filed to keep medical records from the court, and shortly after that request was denied CW unexpectedly proposed a plea deal. With no trial, the medical records never entered evidence.

3). He wants to accuse her but his lawyer explains even if she’s found guilty of something CW will still rot in jail.

What do you think is in the medical records that he didn't want exposed?

 

[NuttMegg]

SBM medical records might be part of it. CW filed to keep medical records from the court, and shortly after that request was denied CW unexpectedly proposed a plea deal. With no trial, the medical records never entered evidence. SBM

I have always wondered about that, as I see so many claims, especially on YT sites, that the plea deal was tied to suppressing the children's medical records. I never saw any proof of that, and those supposed unseen medical records are used to hint that Shan'ann did something horrible to the children and CW was man enough to want the records hidden, man enough to pass the rest of his life in jail. You guys know the sites, we know the drill.
But Scott Reisch explained on one of his podcasts that any side agreement made in conjunction with a plea deal must be listed there on the public documents. That there couldn't have been an under-the-table deal with the coroner or LE to suppress medical records if he only jumped into the plea deal

 

[Colorado303]

Colorado303, I am sure this was discussed a long time ago, but did you actually know CW? If so, what was your impression of him at first....and now knowing 20/20?

I only met Chris a couple of times in group situations. The first time I was at a table talking to a mix of people—some I knew and some I didn’t. CW was seated across the table diagonally from med and Shan’ann was at the next table over talking w/some other folks.

Chris sat there very quiet and didn’t seem like he was paying much attention to the small talk conversation. I didn’t realize he was Shan’ann’s husband till she she came over and joined us. When she did his face lit up and he became more engaged.

I remember thinking he seemed like a nice guy who was probably less comfortable around new people. The girls were there too and watching the family leave he struck me as a really good Dad.

Here’s a reply I gave in Sept 2018 when someone asked about my impression of their relationship:

“I had the same impression most people seem to have had. I only saw them together in group situations. CW was quieter and SW an extravert. He seemed more at ease when she was with him than if he were part of a conversation without her. They genuinely seemed like they liked each other. You know how some couples leave a party together quietly? Almost like they’re shuffling off back to the mines? Seemed to me they were more likely to be chatting w/each other and smiling as they were walking out. When I saw them together the girls were always with them so some of that was logistics — do you have her bottle, I’ll get the diaper bag, that sort of thing. I doubt my observation’s very helpful but IMO probably more genuine behavior than what they posted on FB.

 

[Colorado303]

@Colo


What do you think is in the medical records that he didn't want exposed?

Great question! Beats me. My one hypothesis is pure speculation based mostly on rumors and more speculation. I’m probably way off and don’t want to start any unfounded rumors so I’d rather not say.

ETA— but I don’t think it has anything to do with Shan’ann. Clearly he doesn’t care about her reputation one bit. IMO, whatever it is, it has to do w/CW and the thought of it getting out terrifies him.

 

[Colorado303]

I have always wondered about that, as I see so many claims, especially on YT sites, that the plea deal was tied to suppressing the children's medical records. I never saw any proof of that, and those supposed unseen medical records are used to hint that Shan'ann did something horrible to the children and CW was man enough to want the records hidden, man enough to pass the rest of his life in jail. You guys know the sites, we know the drill.
But Scott Reisch explained on one of his podcasts that any side agreement made in conjunction with a plea deal must be listed there on the public documents. That there couldn't have been an under-the-table deal with the coroner or LE to suppress medical records if he only jumped into the plea deal

But if the medical records hadn’t been turned over to the prosecution yet, would there be any reason why defense would need to provide them (or any other discovery items) once the trial was cancelled? By taking the plea, I think CW accomplished his goal automatically. There would be no need to include it in the plea agreement.

 

[NuttMegg]

But if the medical records hadn’t been turned over to the prosecution yet, would there be any reason why defense would need to provide them (or any other discovery items) once the trial was cancelled? By taking the plea, I think CW accomplished his goal automatically. There would be no need to include it in the plea agreement.

It's always been a little fuzzy to me. So were the medical records all the records of the whole family? And they never were turned over to anyone because of HIPAA? I just never followed that part of the case very closely. Wouldn't SW's family have those records? For the 3 family members? Were his and their records considered a unique entity? I wonder if his defense PD's had access to the records.

 

[Seattle1]

Great question! Beats me. My one hypothesis is pure speculation based mostly on rumors and more speculation. I’m probably way off and don’t want to start any unfounded rumors so I’d rather not say.

ETA— but I don’t think it has anything to do with Shan’ann. Clearly he doesn’t care about her reputation one bit. IMO, whatever it is, it has to do w/CW and the thought of it getting out terrifies him.

I'm not really recalling this info but could these have been CW's own medical records? I think CW could have had things to hide that he believed embarrassing-- anything from roid rage to erectile dysfunction. MOO

 

[oviedo]

It's always been a little fuzzy to me. So were the medical records all the records of the whole family? And they never were turned over to anyone because of HIPAA? I just never followed that part of the case very closely. Wouldn't SW's family have those records? For the 3 family members? Were his and their records considered a unique entity? I wonder if his defense PD's had access to the records.

We are doing a lot of estate plans that include The privacy and release of medical records - IMO unless she signed a health care directive which explicitly released her own medical records, Shan’anns’ were off limits even to her own family/ the kids would need releases from both parents (that’s how we craft our releases) - so short of a court action those records were not going to be released - which makes me believe something was there that needed to remain private
JMO
(I’m still working my way through all her threads)

 

[NuttMegg]

We are doing a lot of estate plans that include The privacy and release of medical records - IMO unless she signed a health care directive which explicitly released her own medical records, Shan’anns’ were off limits even to her own family/ the kids would need releases from both parents (that’s how we craft our releases) - so short of a court action those records were not going to be released - which makes me believe something was there that needed to remain private
JMO
(I’m still working my way through all her threads)

Where would the records physically remain?

 

[hpruitt]

Where would the records physically remain?

Anybody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I worked in a doctor's office for 12 years. In my office, somewhere around 1999-2000, we went from paper charts to EMR (electronical medical records). The paper charts of our "active" patients were scanned into the system. The inactive patient's charts were stored for 7-10 years in a warehouse and then destroyed after that. Deceased patient's charts were pulled and put in storage for the same time frame unless they were on EMR which can keep patient records for an infinite amount of time. After a certain amount of time (I forget how long), our records were backed up and we would have to request them from the "databank" because even though we could see they were "there", we couldn't actually read them. There is usually not a need for records dating back longer than 10 yrs in most cases. All minor patient's charts were kept until they were 18 at least.

 

[mickey2942]

When we discuss "medical records" that includes psychiatric, psychological files, and records. Including any assessments that CW may have taken, MMPI, Stanford Binet scores, other assessment, profiles.

Hmm, lots of speculation to work with here in regards to potential competence, is CW "competent" to actually plead "Guilty"? That would be a juicy morsel. If he scored lower than 75, that would put him in a lower range for cognitive ability.

It is surprising to me, how many people in society who have jobs, and appear to function well enough in society are actually in the lower borderline range of 75-70, which is clinically, "mental retardation". Wouldn't that be interesting?!

All speculative of course. But, it would explain several of his particular issues.

 

[Seattle1]

We are doing a lot of estate plans that include The privacy and release of medical records - IMO unless she signed a health care directive which explicitly released her own medical records, Shan’anns’ were off limits even to her own family/ the kids would need releases from both parents (that’s how we craft our releases) - so short of a court action those records were not going to be released - which makes me believe something was there that needed to remain private
JMO
(I’m still working my way through all her threads)

I recall this came up on another case and it's 50 years that healthcare records are protected (i.e., it's the same for a decedent as if they were living with a few exceptions).

How Do HIPAA Regulations Apply After Death?.

Does the HIPAA Privacy Rule apply to deceased individuals?

The HIPAA Privacy Rule states that individuals’ identifiable health information remain protected for 50 years following their death.

“The Rule explicitly excludes from the definition of ‘protected health information’ individually identifiable health information regarding a person who has been deceased for more than 50 years,” the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) explains on its website. “During the 50-year period of protection, the Privacy Rule generally protects a decedent’s health information to the same extent the Rule protects the health information of living individuals but does include a number of special disclosure provisions relevant to deceased individuals.”

The provisions where a covered entity can disclose the PHI of a deceased individual include the following:

(1) to alert law enforcement to the death of the individual, when there is a suspicion that death resulted from criminal conduct

(2) to coroners or medical examiners and funeral directors

(3) for research that is solely on the protected health information of decedents

(4) to organ procurement organizations or other entities engaged in the procurement, banking, or transplantation of cadaveric organs, eyes, or tissue for the purpose of facilitating organ, eye, or tissue donation and transplantation

(5) to a family member or other person who was involved in the individual’s health care or payment for care prior to the individual’s death, unless doing so is inconsistent with any prior expressed preference of the deceased individual that is known to the covered entity

For PHI disclosures that fall outside of the HIPAA Privacy Rule, covered entities need to receive “a written HIPAA authorization from a personal representative of the decedent who can authorize the disclosure,” according to HHS.

 

[Colorado303]

I'm not really recalling this info but could these have been CW's own medical records? I think CW could have had things to hide that he believed embarrassing-- anything from roid rage to erectile dysfunction. MOO

The objection covered his own medical records and the girls. It may have covered SW’s too— I don’t recall.

 

[they'll get you]

I understand more now -

Sandi Rzucek Typed Statement to Detective Baumhover [39th Tranche]

Sandi Rzucek Typed Statement to Detective Baumhover [39th Tranche], TRUE CRIME ROCKET SCIENCE

1) Why would Sandy her name wrong when signed.

2) I wonder if the thing on his private parts that was removed (Sandi says cancer) was herpes, and if it was the cause for the attempt to suppress the insurance information under the HIPPA law?

 

[Seattle1]

Anybody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I worked in a doctor's office for 12 years. In my office, somewhere around 1999-2000, we went from paper charts to EMR (electronical medical records). The paper charts of our "active" patients were scanned into the system. The inactive patient's charts were stored for 7-10 years in a warehouse and then destroyed after that. Deceased patient's charts were pulled and put in storage for the same time frame unless they were on EMR which can keep patient records for an infinite amount of time. After a certain amount of time (I forget how long), our records were backed up and we would have to request them from the "databank" because even though we could see they were "there", we couldn't actually read them. There is usually not a need for records dating back longer than 10 yrs in most cases. All minor patient's charts were kept until they were 18 at least.

Government never makes anything easy!

In this case, we are actually talking about two different things: 1) record retention and 2) privacy and security of individually identifiable health information (HIPAA).

Depending on your state, generally, medical record retention (pursuant to 42 CFR 482.24(b)(1)) provides that Healthcare facilities must retain medical records for a minimum of five years beyond the date the patient was last seen or a minimum of three years beyond the date of the patient's death. I believe most states error on the caution for medicare compliance and retain records for 10 years as you described above.


Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) protects the privacy and security of individually identifiable health information. The Act does so through regulations issued by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). These regulations can be classed into four rules: The HIPAA Privacy Rule, the HIPAA Security Rule, the HIPAA Breach Notification Rule, and the HIPAA Omnibus Rule. These rules set forth national standards – that is, the entities to whom the rules apply (which entities include covered entities and business associates), include entities across the nation. The practice of medicine itself, is generally regulated not by HIPAA, but by the various states. State law, not HIPAA, dictates how long a doctor’s office must retain medical records. State law medical retention requirements are set forth in the link below.

Does HIPAA Impose Medical Record Retention Requirements? - Compliancy Group