Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[SP2500]

How many times did he fly over those parts at relatively low altitudes? Knowing and learning the landscape?

 

[5W's]

I wouldn't stake anything I valued on the reliability of the DM. And why would a UK paper have an inside scoop that Australian news sources don't have?

This is the quoted police statement:
"Our efforts to locate the remains of Russell and Carol will continue," Assistant Commissioner Hill said.

He said detectives identified a crime scene on Thursday morning within the Great Alpine area and forensic specialists would start searching at the location in the coming days.

But Assistant Commissioner Hill declined to reveal the exact location.

"Police are hopeful that we will be able to locate the deceased and provide ultimate closure to the families," he said.
Renewed search for remains as police zero in on 'crime scene' following pilot's arrest

IMO, there could be other evidence, other than a confession - such as Lynn visiting this location when he was under surveillance, or on some previous occassion as shown by phone data...

ETA: also, if somebody tells police the location of bodies, they are usually required to lead police right there, before they are locked up for the crime....

Under surveillance then LE would have to secure the area so evidence isn't compromised so IMO I think this important aspect has to be taken into consideration.

My take on the DM is this.
It's important to keep in mind how the DM operates. They do have a couple of Australia-based reporters but mostly they are a news aggregation site aiming to bring viewers to the site and then lure them to click on other things. I think it's called "click bait". So, with the Hill-Clay disappearance, the most recent article also had links it pushed at readers of a somewhat racy Madonna photo shoot.
In practice, what that means is they monitor other sites, slightly rewrite and repost other journalists' stories. Sometimes in the rewriting they do not do a good job. They may change or omit entirely a qualification, "It is believed that X did" to a statement of fact: "X did". Or they may actually engage in speculation.
The DM is useful and a good place to start, in that it usually provides the original source of their article and so you just go to that. sometimes a DM story is constructed from several stories carried on other sites. It is also useful in that they frequently post many photographs. I have seen on the DM site in respect of the Hill-Clay disappearance, photographs of the camp site I have not seen elsewhere. So, I do not automatically discount them.
I should also add that their aggregation activities draw the ire of "mainstream" journalist whose work they "borrow".

Carly (Karly?) Closs. Excellent photos and stories 2018 Wisconsin. Detailed information. Terrifying and sad case.

 

[Motomike]

Hi Motomike
Thanks for your comments and setting us straight. I can't imaging how confronting this must be. Without wishing to add to any distress, so please forgive me, I wonder if you could say a little about the camp site.
The police said this site was the best site in the valley, but that Mr Hill had set up camp in a location at that site that was not the best or where they would have expected him to camp. They also mentioned a toilet and some maps mention a suspension bridge.
Do you know how far from the toilet Mr Hill set up and how far from the other car that witnesses saw at the camping area?
You had camped there with Mr Hill before. Did he say why he preferred this site? And when you camped there with him, was in in the exact same place as Mr Hill set up on the fateful trip?
Sorry about the questions. Like many if not actually everyone on the site, my friends and I are really perplexed by this and confronted and feel for all those who have lost in this. A few of us do camping (in couples or solo), but not in such remote areas and I guess it is also that we wonder just how safe it is.
Thanks for reading.

I have been out this afternoon and Just catching up now, so sorry for the delay.
I agree with the police that the Dry River Track camp is the best site in the valley, it is where we camp every time we go there. Luckily every time we have gone there as a group, we get it to ourselves (usually some of the group go in mid week).
The campsite is quite spacious and has a concreted fire pit towards the south end of the clearing. Russell's tent was towards the entrance to the clearing making it about 30m from the fire pit. This suggests to me that someone else may have been camped closer to the fire pit.
There is a long drop toilet about 50m from where Russell had his tent set up.
There is a suspension bridge over the river about 150 -200m upstream from the campsite. The suspension bridge is a foot bridge only about 1m wide. Hunters and bush walkers use this to access the east side of the river. I have never been over the bridge myself for no other reason than I saw nothing of interest on the other side of the river that I couldnt see from the west side of the river.
As far a Russell setting up in the exact same spot, it depends how pedantic you want to be. I would say Russell had set up within about 20m of where he set up the last time we camped there together.
Dont apologize for asking questions, I am glad that I can clear up some of the missing detail and right some misconceptions and miss reported information. Most of the members of the group that I go camping with would not go camping solo or even as a pair or couple in remote areas like Wonnangatta station. What has happened to Russell and Carol reinforces the reason why.

 

[5W's]

They always have the best pics and they are not alone in advertising on their site.

Its a modern magazine its what they do in terms of advertising.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Now, I [and my friends here] am perplexed and a tad confused, because as per link I posted, they were saying in March that they could not account for the white dual cab, implying all others had been accounted for.
Yet, in November, [as per link you posted] the police are saying they are seeking a "dark-blue four-wheel drive seen leaving a remote Wonnangatta Valley campsite on the day Carol Clay and Russell Hill vanished" and "Police have eliminated all other cars of interest from their investigation, except for the blue Nissan", which seems to suggest they have found and eliminated the white dual cab mentioned in the March article.
Assuming the press have accurately reported what the police were saying, it is possible that police had not connected Mr Lynn with the blue Nissan, because he resprayed it in April-May, 2020, just after the trip to the valley and police did not know he had done that. But, the police also said they had spoken to Mr Lynn in 2020 - different dates have been given from June through to November. One would assume they knew then what vehicle he was driving. For instance, if he said, "Oh, I was driving my beige nissan", they would have known there was no such vehicle in the valley at the time; but if he said: "My 4WD that was blue" then he would immediately become a person of interest - because polcie had, from mid 2020 witness statements of a blue vehicle and trailer parked in the vicinity of Mr Hill and Ms Clay.
In terms of police activity, it will be interesting to find out:
1. when police first identified the blue Nissan as being of interest
2. when police first became aware of Mr Lynne being in the valley
3. when police first spoke with Mr Lynn (note, spoke not interviewed, which is a formal conversation)
4. when police realised the Nissan was re-sprayed
5. when the police first identified the cctv picture of the Nissan.
I think for that we will need ot wait for the trial, then the book and then the miniseries!

SOLVED

"...

It's a different colour to the vehicle police have been zeroing in on but it is the same shape and size.

• On March 21, their campsite was found burnt out.
• On March 30, Police made a public appeal for the first time.
• A year later in 2021 there was a potential breakthrough. On March 5, police made an appeal for information about a white dual cab ute, which was eventually ruled out after the owner came forward.

Major breakthrough in missing campers investigation

 

[5W's]

I have been out this afternoon and Just catching up now, so sorry for the delay.
I agree with the police that the Dry River Track camp is the best site in the valley, it is where we camp every time we go there. Luckily every time we have gone there as a group, we get it to ourselves (usually some of the group go in mid week).
The campsite is quite spacious and has a concreted fire pit towards the south end of the clearing. Russell's tent was towards the entrance to the clearing making it about 30m from the fire pit. This suggests to me that someone else may have been camped closer to the fire pit.
There is a long drop toilet about 50m from where Russell had his tent set up.
There is a suspension bridge over the river about 150 -200m upstream from the campsite. The suspension bridge is a foot bridge only about 1m wide. Hunters and bush walkers use this to access the east side of the river. I have never been over the bridge myself for no other reason than I saw nothing of interest on the other side of the river that I couldnt see from the west side of the river.
As far a Russell setting up in the exact same spot, it depends how pedantic you want to be. I would say Russell had set up within about 20m of where he set up the last time we camped there together.
Dont apologize for asking questions, I am glad that I can clear up some of the missing detail and right some misconceptions and miss reported information. Most of the members of the group that I go camping with would not go camping solo or even as a pair or couple in remote areas like Wonnangatta station. What has happened to Russell and Carol reinforces the reason why.

Thank you so much for posting. I'm so sorry what has happened to Russell and Carol. I have my own question regarding the Ham radio that Russell was using that day. I notice that Russell mentioned static was interfering in communication. My question is does this happen regularly? If not is there a possibility of some signal jamming device effecting Russell's communication? That's always been on my mind. And if so it is concerning, Thank you in advance if you are able to answer my question. If not its all good. Thank you regardless.

 

[JudgeJudi]

In the report and in others, it says that a lot of hunters mainly go for the male trohpy deer with antlers, leaving a lot more females, who continue to breed unchecked. The protocol seems to be if you shoot it, you carry out the meat but news reports say shooters often just take the head and leave the rest. Probably any hunters here could give a better rundown!

This is JMO but I think trophy hunting is absolutely despicable. I'm not talking about the culling of animals which I know has to be done from time to time, and while I hate the thought of it, I understand why it needs to be done, but to kill an animal to stick its head on a wall ... there are no words to describe my feelings on that.

 

[JayWill]

Under surveillance then LE would have to secure the area so evidence isn't compromised so IMO I think this important aspect has to be taken into consideration.

Carly (Karly?) Closs. Excellent photos and stories 2018 Wisconsin. Detailed information. Terrifying and sad case.

Jayme Closs.

 

[Motomike]

Thank you so much for posting. I'm so sorry what has happened to Russell and Carol. I have my own question regarding the Ham radio that Russell was using that day. I notice that Russell mentioned static was interfering in communication. My question is does this happen regularly? If not is there a possibility of some signal jamming device effecting Russell's communication? That's always been on my mind. And if so it is concerning, Thank you in advance if you are able to answer my question. If not its all good. Thank you regardless.

I dont recall if there was significant static interference that day or not.
The static interference we have to put up with is either naturally occurring like lightning static (crashes) or they are man made like from a electric generator, plasma TV LED lights etc. I dont think there was someone deliberately trying to jam Russell's transmissions.
The other thing is that because Russell was operating at a location away from home it is not usually possible to erect the most efficient antenna so signal strengths both ways are reduced. This can mean that the signals you are trying to listen to are not very far above the background noise, this coupled with some lightning static or static from a generator may make communication a bit difficult. We are used to these challenges and it is part of everyday life as a HF Ham (Amateur) Radio operator.
If Russell was suffering from static from a generator I dont think he would have asked for the generator to be turned off.
I spoke with Russell up to about 18:30 on the evening before, but continued to listen as Rob Ashlin and Russell discussed the tracks to take and the possible camping spots to have a look at on the way out of the valley towards Dargo. There didnt seem to be any difficulty in passing messages back and forth. The conversation ended around 18:40.
I hope that helps.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I was wondering that. Folks here have been saying, like the press, "burried", by my understanding is the area is riddled with old mine workings. Is that correct?

Some of the old mine shafts in the area have been checked as part of the investigation, which has been taken over by Missing Persons Squad detectives.

"The area is incredibly remote and there is a possibility that they have suffered some misadventure in the bush," Detective Inspector Andrew Stamper said.

"But we also need to rule out any possibility of foul play."

Missing man Russell Hill a 'meticulous camper' with medical conditions, police say - ABC News

 

[JudgeJudi]

A few times it’s been mentioned that Russell must’ve been killed first (accidentally or on purpose) but wouldn’t Carol have screamed or something? Quick succession maybe, but still.. I’m still reserved on the how.

My present thinking is that he attacked them when they were in their sleeping bags and may have used a hatchet.



Camping Hatchet Stock Photos, Pictures & Royalty-Free Images - iStock

 

[everybodhi]

My present thinking is that he attacked them when they were in their sleeping bags and may have used a hatchet.

View attachment 324449

Camping Hatchet Stock Photos, Pictures & Royalty-Free Images - iStock

That would be bloody and explain how LE knew early on that they were dead, with today's technology even the fire may have not covered evidence of a large amount of blood, along with tissue, brain and bone fragments. The hatchet could have been in the fire, as well.

 

[SouthAussie]

I dont recall if there was significant static interference that day or not.
The static interference we have to put up with is either naturally occurring like lightning static (crashes) or they are man made like from a electric generator, plasma TV LED lights etc. I dont think there was someone deliberately trying to jam Russell's transmissions.
The other thing is that because Russell was operating at a location away from home it is not usually possible to erect the most efficient antenna so signal strengths both ways are reduced. This can mean that the signals you are trying to listen to are not very far above the background noise, this coupled with some lightning static or static from a generator may make communication a bit difficult. We are used to these challenges and it is part of everyday life as a HF Ham (Amateur) Radio operator.
If Russell was suffering from static from a generator I dont think he would have asked for the generator to be turned off.
I spoke with Russell up to about 18:30 on the evening before, but continued to listen as Rob Ashlin and Russell discussed the tracks to take and the possible camping spots to have a look at on the way out of the valley towards Dargo. There didnt seem to be any difficulty in passing messages back and forth. The conversation ended around 18:40.
I hope that helps.

Hi Motomike .... I have a few questions, if that's okay.


Do you know where Russell and Carol were, when they made that last ham radio call?
Were they already at their campsite, or were they at Wonnangatta Station, and still had to proceed to the actual campsite?

Also, was Russell the type of person to have partially set up the campsite the weekend before? Sort of 'reserved' it, even though there are no reservations.
We have read that he went away the week before alone for a few days.

And, lastly, where the heck is Russell's ham radio? We haven't heard if it is missing or was found intact and unburned, and it wasn't noticeable in the burned debris.

 

[JudgeJudi]

There's been a lot of speculation about the cause of death being gunshot, but it could have been anything.
The absence of the mobile phones, the drone, the sleeping bags and credit cards [according to police] and possibly the HF antenna (motomike) and the torching of the tent, with camping gear thrown into the tent to be consumed with the fire, is really interesting. But I am not sold on the gunshot idea.

I'm not sold on it either. When he was working as a pilot, he would have been away quite a lot and probably didn't have too much time for camping and/or hunting. In fact for all we know he may only have taken it up since he was stood down. I wonder if he had any idea how far the sound of gunshots would travel in that environment.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That would be bloody and explain how LE knew early on that they were dead, with today's technology even the fire may have not covered evidence of a large amount of blood, along with tissue, brain and bone fragments. The hatchet could have been in the fire, as well.

Yes, there would have been a lot of blood spatter inside the tent and that would be the reason why it was burnt. I followed the Henri van Breda trial in South Africa. He murdered his father, mother, brother and came within a hair’s breadth of murdering his younger sister with this hatchet. I don’t believe GL would have left such a weapon in the fire.



You can read about it here

 

[JudgeJudi]

Person known to camp regularly in area thought to be where couple disappeared, at some point changes paint colour of vehicle....... Difficult not to notice! How many people change paint colour of vehicle, ever? Apart from purchasing new vehicle...

I thought the same but 1 or 2 posters said earlier that it's not unusual at all. I've never known anyone who's changed the colour, just had it resprayed the same colour if there was any damage.

 

[Alicia__elizabeth]

I'm not sold on it either. When he was working as a pilot, he would have been away quite a lot and probably didn't have too much time for camping and/or hunting. In fact for all we know he may only have taken it up since he was stood down. I wonder if he had any idea how far the sound of gunshots would travel in that environment.

GL has always been an avid camper/bushman. Pilot's don't work a normal 9-5 schedule and get many days off in a row. Plenty of time to go camping.
I don't remember GL being a hunter/shooter though so can't comment on that. A lot changes in 20 years!

 

[Satchie]

Why does it have to be shooting? (deleted my theory coz I don’t really know what we are and aren’t allowed to say anymore) Whatever happened, the next several months sure are gonna be interesting.

I guess it was the press that came up with the detail about membership in gun clubs.

I also tend to assume, if someone has a gun, they prefer using it over a hands-on method. It's less personal, the user is more in control, especially if one attacker confront two strangers. But it's all unknown at this stage.

It's interesting to hear that Russell was talking on the radio about leaving the next day. If that was overheard by a neighbouring camper, seems like there would be less reason to feed any hostility, since they'd be gone soon.

 

[Motomike]

Hi Motomike .... I have a few questions, if that's okay.


Do you know where Russell and Carol were, when they made that last ham radio call?
Were they already at their campsite, or were they at Wonnangatta Station, and still had to proceed to the actual campsite?

Also, was Russell the type of person to have partially set up the campsite the weekend before? Sort of 'reserved' it, even though there are no reservations.
We have read that he went away the week before alone for a few days.

And, lastly, where the heck is Russell's ham radio? We haven't heard if it is missing or was found intact and unburned, and it wasn't noticeable in the burned debris.

Yes Russell made the radio contact from the campsite. Russell did go camping the weekend or 2 weekends before, but when we spoke to him he said he was at King Billy 2 which is about 2 hours drive north east of where he was camped in the Wonnangatta valley. He only stayed the one night which we thought was strange as its a long way to go for just 1 night.
Russell's radio was still in his 4WD. I too was curious about that.

 

[Motomike]

It's interesting to hear that Russell was talking on the radio about leaving the next day. If that was overheard by a neighbouring camper, seems like there would be less reason to feed any hostility, since they'd be gone soon.

Thats not quite correct. Russell was discussing with another member of our group possible tracks and campsites he could stop at on the way out, we had no information that he intended to leave the next day.
In the photo of the burnt out campsite I could see no evidence of the antenna he would have used for the radio contact so I assumed he had packed it away ready to depart the next day. It is only an assumption on my part.

Edit: removed some of quote not relevant to my reply.