ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 23

[ArmChairDet]

How small of an area can you get in a geofence? Anyone know?

Exact location is aggregated through applications and services in use. Triangulation is what most people talk about, that is just using 3 cell phone towers with limited accuracy. Notice the accuracy on maps, with wifi enabled you are located to position in a home. If looked in to google or apple, your position is that accurate, and apps have the capability of locating you. Go in to a store and its possible to know which aisle and display you are at.

 

[Colorado303]

Agreed. The eyes on the phone thing wasn't a good look, though. But he's just a kid.

Probably reading National’s response to his “The press is here asking questions! What do I do?” text.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

World Population Review is generally credible, but for Idaho it looks like someone didn't do their homework and just cut and pasted from somewhere else. Yes, Idaho has gangs. But high rate of violence in every city? bs

And there are vast differences between metro areas in the southern part of the state (Treasure & Magic Valleys, for instance) and the northern far more rural part of the state where the quadruple knife murders happened & I’ve lived for decades.

 

[isabella88]

Probably reading National’s response to his “The press is here asking questions! What do I do?” text.

LOL! I can only imagine. Poor kid.

 

[10ofRods]

So I've seen this sort of generalized "LE may be misleading the public in order mislead the perp as some sort of master strategic plan to get what they need to arrest the perp" idea reiterated every so often on this thread, and I'm genuinely confused as to why anyone thinks this is what's happening? Whether it's the food truck guy or any other "cleared" person, I've seen the basic premise mentioned numerous times, here and elsewhere.

Am I forgetting cases where this sort of mass duplicity in terms of LE public statements was used? I cannot think of a single case that I could compare LE's "they're cleared" statements with some sort of long-game investigative strategy in the past? Please, if there are any, I really want to know, I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious if this actually happens, and if so, I'd like to read about some examples.

I wouldn't call it duplicity and I've tried to explain it before. I have worked on teams with LE and other forensic investigators where we (the team, including the LE) did not have all the relevant information because it was on need-to-know basis.

Why? Not to mislead - but ti avoid confirmation bias first and foremost. One piece of information in isolation, seized upon by experts or the public, can destroy or ruin an entire investigation. It can also prejudice the chance of conviction at trial (ever since the 90's and the re-review of the Kennedy assassination. "Rush to Judgement" is now a real thing in the minds of LE and prosecutors.

There was no mass duplicity on the part of officers (where are you getting that?) There have been attempts to communicate clearly that misfired and had to be walked back - but very very little of that, IMO. It's clear the word "targeted" has been used in two contexts, and then clarified down to one context (at present). That's not lying - that's how investigations actually work.

Has LE actually said "cleared" or have they just said "No POI" and "persons interviewed have alibis." Have they said "iron clad alibis?" I don't think so. No LE with good training would telegraph to a POI what the nature of the evidence was - or that they were on the radar. We seem to be hearing that one of the parents thinks people were definitively cleared. Does LE really need to keep typing "at this time" after every statement? It appears that LE has its reasons for believing that certain persons are not POI at this time and have alibis. Are they officially cleared though? I have missed that announcement if so.

I assume that White Hoody showed his phone records and there were 2-3 methods (easy ones) that LE used to confirm that his phone went to certain places and probably calls made from that phone to people who could verify it was White Hoody who made them (and he wasn't in Moscow at the time). LE doesn't have to spell all this out - and shouldn't, as it just leads to criminals getting smarter about covering their trails.

We find out more in due course.

 

[lucidium]

But the most notable distinction between Laundrie and this case is LE saying they've been cleared, or more specifically "believed not to be involved". They didn't say that about Laundrie, they may have been hiding their cards, but they weren't putting out convoluted lies about him not being involved. And while your point about him being able to disappear and kill himself is SO valid, Laundrie didn't seem like a danger to the public the way a deranged mass stabbing murderer would be.

On top of that, even if LE claiming certain people are cleared was some sort of super rare master strategic misinformation investigative tool, I highly doubt that the mayor and the prosecutor would have started reinforcing the "targeted" statements that were initially pretty strongly made by LE just so LE could release two conflicting qualifying statements "it wasn't that sort of targeted" statements. It's just too much to believe it was orchestrated, and would be too poorly executed if it was some sort of super manipulative plan on LE's part.

Nah, nope, I don't buy it even a little. I think LE initially thought, for valid reasons, it was more specifically targeted, but their investigation thus far has not provided them any evidence of this. I think they likely regret how those first few press conferences were phrased because other than some more extensive wounds on K, they have no evidence of person-specific targeting after a whole lot of investigating... MOO

MPD has never wavered. Official statements since the the early days of the investigation are consistent: they believe this was a targeted attack.

 

[isabella88]

But it's not up to "the community," is what people are trying to say. And people may want to live there for other reasons than a thrill, no reason to shade the future occupants of the house.

I understand what people are saying and acknowledged as much. Not looking to shade anybody and sorry you took it that way. What happens to the house is the least of my concerns. JMO

 

[SteveP]

It is a murder of 4 people. That does not mean that this person has ever murdered before. We would need to see a larger pattern of murder in order to call this person a Mass Murderer. And we do not have that information - yet.

The United States Dept of Justice defines mass murder as:

A mass murder is defined as the killing of three or more people at one time and in one location.

Mass Murder in the United States | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Nothing new to add from me just yet. Just wanted to jump in here and say hello! Looks like I have some catching up to do in threads.

I was intrigued about this as soon as I heard the news. Sad and bizarre. Doesn't look like LE is close to solving this IMO.

 

[LizWords]

I wouldn't call it duplicity and I've tried to explain it before. I have worked on teams with LE and other forensic investigators where we (the team, including the LE) did not have all the relevant information because it was on need-to-know basis.

Why? Not to mislead - but ti avoid confirmation bias first and foremost. One piece of information in isolation, seized upon by experts or the public, can destroy or ruin an entire investigation. It can also prejudice the chance of conviction at trial (ever since the 90's and the re-review of the Kennedy assassination. "Rush to Judgement" is now a real thing in the minds of LE and prosecutors.

There was no mass duplicity on the part of officers (where are you getting that?) There have been attempts to communicate clearly that misfired and had to be walked back - but very very little of that, IMO. It's clear the word "targeted" has been used in two contexts, and then clarified down to one context (at present). That's not lying - that's how investigations actually work.

Has LE actually said "cleared" or have they just said "No POI" and "persons interviewed have alibis." Have they said "iron clad alibis?" I don't think so. No LE with good training would telegraph to a POI what the nature of the evidence was - or that they were on the radar. We seem to be hearing that one of the parents thinks people were definitively cleared. Does LE really need to keep typing "at this time" after every statement? It appears that LE has its reasons for believing that certain persons are not POI at this time and have alibis. Are they officially cleared though? I have missed that announcement if so.

I assume that White Hoody showed his phone records and there were 2-3 methods (easy ones) that LE used to confirm that his phone went to certain places and probably calls made from that phone to people who could verify it was White Hoody who made them (and he wasn't in Moscow at the time). LE doesn't have to spell all this out - and shouldn't, as it just leads to criminals getting smarter about covering their trails.

We find out more in due course.

Their phrasing is not "cleared". Their phrasing is "not believed to be involved at this time."

I would hope they wouldn't use either phrasings if they didn't have very good evidence of alibis. Sure, even seemingly solid alibis sometimes turn out to be a lie, a person was seen going home, but not leaving again later. People lie for alibis, etc. Those sorts of alibis are sometimes not as solid as they seem, but that's pretty rare. I would hope that before they tell the families and the public they've ruled out a bunch of people that they have very good evidence they were not involved.

I think LE's phrasing around the "not involved" was meant to try to help stop the speculation about everything and everyone when LE was pretty confident these folks were not involved without revealing investigative info.

 

[fridaybaker]

I would not be surprised if some, if not all, of the families will sue. I don’t know how successful they would be. Normally for liability insurance to kick in, the policyholder has to be liable for the act. Maybe, as @lmr said, they could allege faulty locks, inadequate lighting, etc, but I’m not sure it would meet the burden of proof needed for liability.

While I mentioned that insurance will likely pay for the clean up whether or not covered, that is under the property portion of the policy. The liability portion of the policy is what responds to lawsuits. Insurance companies don’t agree to pay those if there is not coverage and will usually defend them if they feel they aren’t liable, regardless of the publicity. One reason is, we are talking a lot more money for this type of claim than for the clean up and repairs. The owner of this house has multiple buildings so it is likely insured under a commercial policy. In that case, it wouldn’t be unusual for the limits to be $500,000. And on top of that, they may have an umbrella policy with limits $1 million plus.

All JMO, based on 20+ years handling insurance claims.

I would imagine that they have an Umbrella for at least $1m. That’s pretty standard with a large rental unit like that, IMO.

 

[rahod1]

Do you mean the odds encountering someone with the mental capability? You must, but I don't see anything meaningful about that.

It doesn't necessarily take any significant physical strength to attack and kill people while they're sleeping.

I meant ALL AROUND mental and physical. Slashing four people to death in their own home while asleep is not something that even the most mentally deranged person would never do. This is a spectacularly RARE event that requires a confluence of circumstances and it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY one (or more) of the victims would have encountered such a person by CHANCE. MOO

 

[LizWords]

MPD has never wavered. Official statements since the the early days of the investigation are consistent: they believe this was a targeted attack.

I don't really agree with that. I think the bulk of the drama and confusion around the targeted stuff was initiated by non-LE, the mayor, the prosecutor. But LE has absolutely made statements after that drama started that were somewhat in conflict with how they initially phrased it, and they have most definitively qualified targeted in a way that they didn't before.

 

[fridaybaker]

Unless they can prove the killer’s entrance was made through door/window w/a faulty lock IMo it will be difficult to sue successfully. Assuming reports are true that the slider was often left unlocked and door code was common knowledge, civil defense attorneys will argue it’s not the landlord’s fault the tenants didn’t secure the residence.

JMO

Here’s the thing with a “faulty lock”, though: The LL has to provide one initially, but if the tenant(s) didn’t notify him that it was inoperable or it became inoperable through the fault of the tenant, that changes things.

 

[rahod1]

The odds are staggering. But we do not have enough evidence to assume that this was a Mass Murderer, a Serial Killer or even a person who had a psychotic break. We cannot assume anything at this point.

I wasn't assuming anything, just MOO.

 

[jjleroche]

But what part of this crime wasn't risky?

I live in Australia, so don't this location. Is it common for hunters to live here? Clearly, the perpetrator was very skilled in hunting knife use. Someone who blends in with the college town crowd, and is a skilled (and very confident) user of such knives. Would that be common in this location? There are probably dozens of possible perps, but the highly skilled use of the knife must surely set him apart (killing 4 adults with it - no mean feat).

 

[10ofRods]

The United States Dept of Justice defines mass murder as:

A mass murder is defined as the killing of three or more people at one time and in one location.

Mass Murder in the United States | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Yep, and I, for one, am going with that standard, widely accepted and, might I dare say official definition. It's part of being a good websleuth to use proper terminology.

Serial mass killings are very rare. This was a mass murder, by definition. And indeed, it's possible that we are dealing with a version of the Elliot Roger kind of situation. That's a very instructive case for WSers to read more about.

If we have a serial mass killer, my own mental database isn't coming up with any examples except Danny Rolling. But those two cases (Elliot Rogers and Danny Rolling) should give everyone clues about who might be on the radar of LE.

 

[Aquarian]

My thoughts on perp already being in the home. Video has the girls arriving home at 156 that night, phone records show K and M making phones calls to K's ex bf around 250. Per p would have been waiting in the house for over an hour, may have been waiting in girls room it may have taken them an hour to get to bed in their room after arriving home and then attacking, very risky.

And, I’m sorry-lol, but wouldn’t the dog be sniffing around a closet or something? I can’t imagine Murphy not knowing someone was hiding within the home . Unless is was outside somewhere like a utility area or whatnot that’s been mentioned , do they have that? Just my opinion.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Was the Google Street view recently blurred out?

 

[Jealoushe]

Columbine High School wasn’t destroyed. A few days ago we went for a game. Accidentally finding ourselves standing where two evil boys stood. I’ve had nightmares since. I can’t step foot in there again.

That’s chilling.

I think a school is harder to replace than a house, I would be surprised if they don’t demolish this one.