Right
Another grey area :-/
ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #71
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Another grey area :-/
nodamselindistress
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Just some off the cuff thoughts here...they really did not have a plan when TR was taken out and they botched it badly. You would have to believe that a former grave digger would know how hot a fire has to be to burn a body. I suspect CD was about as good at that as he was an author.
indicolite22
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He would have known if he googled it. He did google the wind direction...
But that seems very unlikely. Would you actually plan a murder for a time when you had guests in the house that might hear or see something? I think if it were planned then it had to be at Alex's place. If it was Lori who did it in a fit of rage over something JJ did in the middle of the night then that would make more sense.
nodamselindistress
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I still am having trouble with what they did to Tylee's body. It seems so over the top and not necessary.
scapa
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Detailed analysis, lots to think about.
I feel like #5 and #6 are key , since both involve a) a pretext for murder and b) a justification for it.
They are also common elements in other crimes that pop up here, especially in filicide and family annihilation. "I had to send my partner / children to a better life so they would not suffer -- and then I was (often) spared."
The victims, of course, deluded as they are (deceived, even?) have no say in their own victimhood. They don't have the insight, or the right.
I think that a good jury is going to hear this testimony and decide that Lori is guilty through a mix of active criminality and criminal neglect.
I think Chad's jury will find the same, with a different weighting.
I think both will grow old in jail waiting to be rescued to lead the 144,000 to glory.
I've been wondering if the vastly different approaches to disposing of the bodies tells us anything. It could be as simple as learning what does not work when they did Tylee and doing something different 2 weeks later with JJ. It could also mean 2 different people did the burials.
Gardenista
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From what we've heard so far, I think there is 100% chance that CD will get the DP.
pizzaman12
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Link?
pizzaman12
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Blame the prosecutors.
pizzaman12
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No. Not at all so I disagree
pizzaman12
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Not correct nor what the pathologist stated.
Madison1905
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Right. He said he was not able to determine if the GHB could be naturally occurring from post mortem in the liver or given to him before he died.
Caylee Advocate
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It's never easy in these cases but especially hard when the victims are so young. For anyone needing a hug, here ya' go.
Caylee Advocate
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IMO it's almost impossible to use duct tape while wearing gloves. Try an experiment and tear the tape with gloves on. That's why I think 2 people (Lori and Alex) were involved in the little man JJ's demise. JMO
iamshadow21
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Because the brutality of it was the point.
What happened to JJ was my worst case scenario, what I hoped against but expected had happened the moment I heard about the bag. All I could think of was the Otero family. It's slow, and it's cruel, and it's painful, and it's terrifying.
I know a lot of what they said about Tylee revolved around the fact that they couldn't be certain. I had hoped she had been shot or sedated before any of the other stuff happened. I am so relieved she was unlikely to have been burnt alive; I hadn't even gone there. But the other tool marks on her bones that don't fit with a purely practical dismemberment give me pause and make me fear that, like JJ, her death was closer to torture than anything else. That maybe that's why they tried to destroy her so entirely. Given the trappings of this case, it makes my brain go to the darker, more brutal sides of Mormon history, like blood atonement, for example. It makes me wonder if there was something ritual here, if only for 'show' to convince Alex that it was a righteous action.
If they had wanted to kill these kids quick, clean and painless, they could easily have. They had plenty of guns, they had access to drugs, and the kids were completely trusting and dependent on them. They could have dosed them then shot them in their sleep. Instead they chose methods of pure sadism, depravity, and prolonged terror. Then they disposed of them like garbage or wild animals.
MOO
indicolite22
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IMO it did happen at Alex's place. Like in Tylee's case, they made sure that Chad would be alone at home for the burial. JJ's grave was also likely pre-dug, because Alex didn't stay long at Chad's property.
Niner
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Summary of tweets for Wednesday, April 26th -
State witness: Dr. Garth Warren, forensic pathologist / Part 2
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
9h
NEW THREAD: Back in the courtroom. During the break, I spoke with a man from South Africa who coordinated his trip to the US in conjunction with the trial.
One of my classmates from the 4th grade also came up to say hi. She traveled from Utah to be here. The courtroom is packed with attendees and people are watching in the overflow room too.
Judge Boyce is back on the bench. Jurors are being brought in. Wood will continue to question Warren.
Wood begins by asking Warren about homicide by unspecified means. "There are specific guidelines and criteria used dealing with the cause of death. 1. It has to be objectively suspicious circumstances - dismembered body, body is burned, body is buried out of site - and others.
This case clearly fits number one. 2. No findings at autopsy to explain the death."
Warren says he found no drugs or substances to explain the decedents' deaths. Tylee's case met all the qualifications to determine she died by homicide by unspecified means. "This is a homicide, I just can't tell you exactly why."
Warren reviewed Tylee's medical records. She had anxiety, ovarian cysts, pancreatitis and some other minor health issues. Wood asks if anything in her medical history would cause a reason for her death. Warren responds, "No. Not in my opinion."
Warren collected multiple pieces of soft tissue, skeletal muscle (what he thought was liver) and other organs for potential DNA analysis. "You can use blood and tissue samples to get DNA from those sources."
The remains were three bags. In bag #2, there was a single strand of hair. That was submitted to law enforcement. A melted green bucket was also found in bag #2. It was also given to the police for evidence.
Warren asks if photos were taken during Tylee's autopsy. He says yes. Wood asks to admit over 30 photographs as evidence.
Larry and Kay Woodcock are in the courtroom this afternoon. Larry told me it's hard to be here but it's hard to not be here too. They want to be here as often as they can.
John Thomas objects that the photos are too prejudicial and should not be admitted. Boyce says he has considered the objection and overrules the objection.
"But there are some photographs in here, not all of them, in order to minimize the inflammatory effect should not be shown on the large projector screen," Boyce says.
It appears members of the public will see some of the photos - but not the most graphic. The jurors will see every photo on the screens in front of them. The judge, defense (including Lori) and prosecutors will see all of the pictures.
We are shown the first photo. Wood asks Warren to describe it. "The remains came in three separate bags. This is labeled 1 of 3 and you can see there's a red seal through the zippers of the bag. The seal is to preserve evidence," he responds.
The next image is a close up shot of the red lock on the body bag with Tylee's case number written on the lock. The next image shows inside two brown paper bags inside the body bag after the seal was broken. One bag is labeled, "burial site?" and the other bag is not labeled.
We will not be shown the next few images. Lori can look at them but her head has remained down with her back to the monitor. Configurations are made so those sitting behind the prosecution's table cannot see their monitor.
I will describe the next few images based on Warren's description as I can not see the photos.
This photo shows charred remains with clumps of mud, dirt, soft tissue and bone that were inside the body bag. The next image shows what was in the "comingled clump of charred tissue." Warren says on the far left is a "sacrum with decomposed tissue with black and charring."
The right and left hip bones are in the remains with part of a femur. There are also fragments of small bowel found within the comingled remains. The photo also shows some small bones and cartilage.
All of the skeletal remains were sent to the FBI for testing. The next image is still bag 1 of 3. This shows charred and decomposed soft tissue. "On the right are blackened chunks of material determined to be clumps of mud, ash and rock."
Still on bag 1 of 3. The next image shows what was in the paper bag labeled "burial site?" There are multiple charred pieces of bone and other debris.
The next image shows close-ups of Tylee's body parts, bones and other artifacts. There is also charred ash, dirt, twigs and rock.
The next image shows bag 2 of 3 - how it was received as a suspected female. The next image is the lock on the body bag showing that it was intact. The next image shows what Warren found once the bag was broken open.
"There are large masses and clumps of - it's hard to tell - but there are clumps of tissue, you can feel the bone...on the largest mass of comingled tissue there is some green discoloration." The green is from the bucket found with the remains.
The next image is from bag 2 of 3. There are more charred remains along with brown paper bags. One is sealed with tape.
The next image shows Tylee's skull and where her eyeballs would be located. There is charring and dirt on the skull. Warren describes a large fragment of her cranium. There are teeth - blackened and charred - but there were still some teeth in tact.
The next image shows Tylee's heart, right in the middle of the picture, and on both sides of the heart are her right and left lung. They were still attached to each other.
"The heart and the lungs are both significantly shrunken, they're disrupted, they're burned, they've fallen apart."
Warren describes the next photo which shows a close-up of Tylee's charred heart. "There is decomposition and it's falling apart." Tylee's lungs were significantly shrunken and were like a "hard sponge."
One kidney was identified. Warren is now describing that photo. The kidney was charred.
The next image is bag 2 of 3 after it's been cleaned up. The organs have been removed but all the bones remain. Warren describes a scapula, long bones and multiple rib fragments. There is also a sternum and black, charred bones that are unrecognizable.
The next photo is multiple charged pieces of bone, unrecognizable bones, small bones likely from Tylee's hands or feet. These were all in a brown paper bag.
We are now moving on to bag 3 of 3. Warren says inside this bag were five smaller paper envelopes. Boyce says from this point forward, the photos can be projected on the big screen so we will get to see them.
Boyce says the victims will have an opportunity to view the photographic evidence if they wish.
We now see a photo of a small paper bag on the screen. Warren says small fragments of unidentifiable charred bones were found inside this bag. The next photo is another small bag sealed and labeled "firepit B." Small fragments of charred, unrecognizable bone was inside this bag.
The next photo shows a bag that contained small pieces of unrecognizable bones. The following picture shows another paper bag that contained more small, charred, crumbling unrecognizable bones.
The final photo shows another small bag labeled "suspected organic matter." There were small charred pieces of soft tissue in the bag.
Wood has no further questions for Warren. John Thomas will now cross-examine the pathologist.
Thomas asks Warren about his medical degree and where he went for his undergraduate work. Warren responds that he went to Stanford.
Warren explains that he completed three different fellowships as part of his training.
Thomas asks if the Ada County Coroner's Office is independent of law enforcement. Warren says his office works with them but not for them.
I have not seen Lori look up from her notebook since we returned from lunch an hour ago.
Thomas asks Warren what his training is when it comes to evidence collection. Warren says during one fellowship, he was trained on how to get nail swabs, fingernail clippings, getting clothing off body, etc.
Thomas asks who is in the room when autopsies are done. Warren says during this case, he had three technicians helping him. Rob Wood, two Rexburg police detectives, the Fremont County coroner and a Fremont County detective were also there.
Thomas asks if an officer or prosecutor is telling Warren what to collect. He responds, "It's a team approach. There are typical things we always get. If we can, we always try to get fingernail swabs, hand swabs, oral swabs/sometimes law enforcement will ask for specific things."
Thomas asks if the autopsy was recorded. Warren says no. They do not video or audio record autopsies. Thomas asks what he remembers about JJ and Tylee's autopsies. Warren remembers collecting fingernails, the bag the body came in and the duct tape.
He does not remember specific conversations with anyone from that day about the evidence being collected.
Warren says before JJ's autopsy, he held a briefing with Rexburg police, Fremont County sheriff detectives and an FBI agent. Warren was given a timeline of the case from when the kids disappeared to when they were found.
Thomas asks if Warren collected inside JJ's sinuses. Warren says no. Thomas asks Warren how he came to the conclusion that JJ was smothered with a plastic bag. "He was found with a plastic bag over his head, it was tight and there were signs of a struggle," Warren says.
Warren: "You find zero reason for them to be dead then it's reasonable to conclude that it was the cause of death." Thomas asks why Warren didn't swab JJ's nasal cavity. Warren says he would never do that in these types of circumstances.
Thomas says, "I'm going based on things I've seen in movies." Warren responds, "That's scary."
After a feisty back and forth over why Warren didn't swab JJ's nasal cavities for evidence of plastic bag fibers, Thomas says they will just have to disagree about why it wasn't done. Warren says it's never done with a plastic bag over the head.
"You're not breathing in plastic, you're breathing in air and that's why you die. There's no air."
Thomas asks about the bruises found on JJ's body and if they looked fresh. Warren says the bruises could have been from within hours before JJ died. Thomas has no further questions and Warren is released from the witness stand.
Thomas says Dr. Warren may be recalled so they ask Boyce to keep him under subpoena. He is excused as a witness for today. We are now taking an afternoon break.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
State witness: Dr. Garth Warren, forensic pathologist / Part 2
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
9h
NEW THREAD: Back in the courtroom. During the break, I spoke with a man from South Africa who coordinated his trip to the US in conjunction with the trial.
One of my classmates from the 4th grade also came up to say hi. She traveled from Utah to be here. The courtroom is packed with attendees and people are watching in the overflow room too.
Judge Boyce is back on the bench. Jurors are being brought in. Wood will continue to question Warren.
Wood begins by asking Warren about homicide by unspecified means. "There are specific guidelines and criteria used dealing with the cause of death. 1. It has to be objectively suspicious circumstances - dismembered body, body is burned, body is buried out of site - and others.
This case clearly fits number one. 2. No findings at autopsy to explain the death."
Warren says he found no drugs or substances to explain the decedents' deaths. Tylee's case met all the qualifications to determine she died by homicide by unspecified means. "This is a homicide, I just can't tell you exactly why."
Warren reviewed Tylee's medical records. She had anxiety, ovarian cysts, pancreatitis and some other minor health issues. Wood asks if anything in her medical history would cause a reason for her death. Warren responds, "No. Not in my opinion."
Warren collected multiple pieces of soft tissue, skeletal muscle (what he thought was liver) and other organs for potential DNA analysis. "You can use blood and tissue samples to get DNA from those sources."
The remains were three bags. In bag #2, there was a single strand of hair. That was submitted to law enforcement. A melted green bucket was also found in bag #2. It was also given to the police for evidence.
Warren asks if photos were taken during Tylee's autopsy. He says yes. Wood asks to admit over 30 photographs as evidence.
Larry and Kay Woodcock are in the courtroom this afternoon. Larry told me it's hard to be here but it's hard to not be here too. They want to be here as often as they can.
John Thomas objects that the photos are too prejudicial and should not be admitted. Boyce says he has considered the objection and overrules the objection.
"But there are some photographs in here, not all of them, in order to minimize the inflammatory effect should not be shown on the large projector screen," Boyce says.
It appears members of the public will see some of the photos - but not the most graphic. The jurors will see every photo on the screens in front of them. The judge, defense (including Lori) and prosecutors will see all of the pictures.
We are shown the first photo. Wood asks Warren to describe it. "The remains came in three separate bags. This is labeled 1 of 3 and you can see there's a red seal through the zippers of the bag. The seal is to preserve evidence," he responds.
The next image is a close up shot of the red lock on the body bag with Tylee's case number written on the lock. The next image shows inside two brown paper bags inside the body bag after the seal was broken. One bag is labeled, "burial site?" and the other bag is not labeled.
We will not be shown the next few images. Lori can look at them but her head has remained down with her back to the monitor. Configurations are made so those sitting behind the prosecution's table cannot see their monitor.
I will describe the next few images based on Warren's description as I can not see the photos.
This photo shows charred remains with clumps of mud, dirt, soft tissue and bone that were inside the body bag. The next image shows what was in the "comingled clump of charred tissue." Warren says on the far left is a "sacrum with decomposed tissue with black and charring."
The right and left hip bones are in the remains with part of a femur. There are also fragments of small bowel found within the comingled remains. The photo also shows some small bones and cartilage.
All of the skeletal remains were sent to the FBI for testing. The next image is still bag 1 of 3. This shows charred and decomposed soft tissue. "On the right are blackened chunks of material determined to be clumps of mud, ash and rock."
Still on bag 1 of 3. The next image shows what was in the paper bag labeled "burial site?" There are multiple charred pieces of bone and other debris.
The next image shows close-ups of Tylee's body parts, bones and other artifacts. There is also charred ash, dirt, twigs and rock.
The next image shows bag 2 of 3 - how it was received as a suspected female. The next image is the lock on the body bag showing that it was intact. The next image shows what Warren found once the bag was broken open.
"There are large masses and clumps of - it's hard to tell - but there are clumps of tissue, you can feel the bone...on the largest mass of comingled tissue there is some green discoloration." The green is from the bucket found with the remains.
The next image is from bag 2 of 3. There are more charred remains along with brown paper bags. One is sealed with tape.
The next image shows Tylee's skull and where her eyeballs would be located. There is charring and dirt on the skull. Warren describes a large fragment of her cranium. There are teeth - blackened and charred - but there were still some teeth in tact.
The next image shows Tylee's heart, right in the middle of the picture, and on both sides of the heart are her right and left lung. They were still attached to each other.
"The heart and the lungs are both significantly shrunken, they're disrupted, they're burned, they've fallen apart."
Warren describes the next photo which shows a close-up of Tylee's charred heart. "There is decomposition and it's falling apart." Tylee's lungs were significantly shrunken and were like a "hard sponge."
One kidney was identified. Warren is now describing that photo. The kidney was charred.
The next image is bag 2 of 3 after it's been cleaned up. The organs have been removed but all the bones remain. Warren describes a scapula, long bones and multiple rib fragments. There is also a sternum and black, charred bones that are unrecognizable.
The next photo is multiple charged pieces of bone, unrecognizable bones, small bones likely from Tylee's hands or feet. These were all in a brown paper bag.
We are now moving on to bag 3 of 3. Warren says inside this bag were five smaller paper envelopes. Boyce says from this point forward, the photos can be projected on the big screen so we will get to see them.
Boyce says the victims will have an opportunity to view the photographic evidence if they wish.
We now see a photo of a small paper bag on the screen. Warren says small fragments of unidentifiable charred bones were found inside this bag. The next photo is another small bag sealed and labeled "firepit B." Small fragments of charred, unrecognizable bone was inside this bag.
The next photo shows a bag that contained small pieces of unrecognizable bones. The following picture shows another paper bag that contained more small, charred, crumbling unrecognizable bones.
The final photo shows another small bag labeled "suspected organic matter." There were small charred pieces of soft tissue in the bag.
Wood has no further questions for Warren. John Thomas will now cross-examine the pathologist.
Thomas asks Warren about his medical degree and where he went for his undergraduate work. Warren responds that he went to Stanford.
Warren explains that he completed three different fellowships as part of his training.
Thomas asks if the Ada County Coroner's Office is independent of law enforcement. Warren says his office works with them but not for them.
I have not seen Lori look up from her notebook since we returned from lunch an hour ago.
Thomas asks Warren what his training is when it comes to evidence collection. Warren says during one fellowship, he was trained on how to get nail swabs, fingernail clippings, getting clothing off body, etc.
Thomas asks who is in the room when autopsies are done. Warren says during this case, he had three technicians helping him. Rob Wood, two Rexburg police detectives, the Fremont County coroner and a Fremont County detective were also there.
Thomas asks if an officer or prosecutor is telling Warren what to collect. He responds, "It's a team approach. There are typical things we always get. If we can, we always try to get fingernail swabs, hand swabs, oral swabs/sometimes law enforcement will ask for specific things."
Thomas asks if the autopsy was recorded. Warren says no. They do not video or audio record autopsies. Thomas asks what he remembers about JJ and Tylee's autopsies. Warren remembers collecting fingernails, the bag the body came in and the duct tape.
He does not remember specific conversations with anyone from that day about the evidence being collected.
Warren says before JJ's autopsy, he held a briefing with Rexburg police, Fremont County sheriff detectives and an FBI agent. Warren was given a timeline of the case from when the kids disappeared to when they were found.
Thomas asks if Warren collected inside JJ's sinuses. Warren says no. Thomas asks Warren how he came to the conclusion that JJ was smothered with a plastic bag. "He was found with a plastic bag over his head, it was tight and there were signs of a struggle," Warren says.
Warren: "You find zero reason for them to be dead then it's reasonable to conclude that it was the cause of death." Thomas asks why Warren didn't swab JJ's nasal cavity. Warren says he would never do that in these types of circumstances.
Thomas says, "I'm going based on things I've seen in movies." Warren responds, "That's scary."
After a feisty back and forth over why Warren didn't swab JJ's nasal cavities for evidence of plastic bag fibers, Thomas says they will just have to disagree about why it wasn't done. Warren says it's never done with a plastic bag over the head.
"You're not breathing in plastic, you're breathing in air and that's why you die. There's no air."
Thomas asks about the bruises found on JJ's body and if they looked fresh. Warren says the bruises could have been from within hours before JJ died. Thomas has no further questions and Warren is released from the witness stand.
Thomas says Dr. Warren may be recalled so they ask Boyce to keep him under subpoena. He is excused as a witness for today. We are now taking an afternoon break.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
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