Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #102

[Jamie737]

If that witness seemed more reliable and now they are doubting his/her testimony, then to me, it indicates the witness was white collar, and local, not someone involved in construction nearby two years ago.

I wonder if anyone can ask the witness to do polygraph? I doubt he/she would, but a refusal would be telling.

And if the witness is innocent, he/she would want to take the test...

My thinking is more along the lines of the one witness, probably older, male etc having seen a person, perhaps OBG and another witness, perhaps young, or in other ways an unreliable sort having seen something else entirely.

And that they then discounted the actual and accurate and important testimony.

For example, if it’s true as I’ve read, that there are sometimes drug users under that bridge and one of them - perhaps high at the time, actually saw the victims being frogmarched down the hill and said what s/he saw - that could have been dismissed.

In this theory there are two men, OBG and NBG, but because OBG was seen by an upstanding citizen and NBG by a marginalised member of society, the investigation pivoted. In the wrong direction.

 

[newredtabby]

They straight up said this is the person who we are confident murdered these girls.

They would not make that claim if they knew that was false

LE uses various deception tactics, but I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any ethical investigation go as far as to straight up accuse a possible witness of a potential poi of an actual murder when they knew it was false and they can’t at least tie them to the actual murder scene

Unless all other leads have dried up (which I believe they have). Then logic dictates this new (old) sketch must be the killer, OR they have no clue and this is their only, and last, hope.

The only time I’ve ever heard of such a thing is when said witness could be placed at the actual murder scene and they are pressuring said witness to talk and turn on the poi via in person interrogation.

Even then that witness is obviously a known individual to investigators and so is the suspect

And surely not done per sketch release to the public

Jmo

 

[DancingMuse]

Very logical and interesting.

Agree with you again today, Charlot123.
So many excellent theories this morning.
Love this group, today: You are all thinking outside the box. (Wells, Ursamajr, etc. Fantastic, cogent stuff)

That being said, I want to state up front: I am ardently, over-the-top, PRO-Law-Enforcement.

Good "old-fashioned police work" will always win out. Always has. Always will.

But I have believed from the beginning, that LE had 2 major things against them.
This horrific crime could have been solved in the first 2 weeks.
And it wasn't. Why?

1) Someone tampered with the crime scene.
2) Someone close to LE (clerk, etc) was also "close" to BG, and steered the investigation wrongly in the first few days.

That is what my "hinky meter" is telling me.

(MOO: Amateur speculation and life experience, "what a long strange road it has been")

 

[SeattleStew]

Could someone tell me what that little circle icon in the upper right hand corner of Libby's snapchat photo of Abby is?

 

[Wells]

S&BBM -
10 live males, 1 dead male, 1 jailed male, and one live lesbian
and a partridge in a pear tree.

About sums it up.......

MSM needed for the partridge in a pear tree.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

MSM needed for the partridge in a pear tree.

Most definitely

 

[sunshineray]

Here's my theory. Just going to throw it out there and hopefully I'm wrong. It's just a theory. All of this is my own opinion. Young white male between the ages of 25 and 30 who looked to be about 18 or 20 at the time of the crime. Became obsessed with one of the girls in some type of peripheral setting (observed her somewhere), although she was not aware of him. I don't mean romantically obsessed. I think he was obsessed with something he didn't like about her, through not fault of hers.

He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

While I think it was planned, I think he also got very lucky. And while I think he is slightly above average in intelligence, I think he thinks he is a lot smarter than he is. I think, as LE said, "you made mistakes."

I don't think SA was involved or the motive. I don't think he anticipated a second girl being there but she was. I think he has done things in the past that have led him to believe he is already evil in his own mind and since he already believes himself to be evil, he may as well indulge/revel in it. Or he may see himself as some type of a religious avenger, going around all hellfire and brimstone.

He hightails it back to his vehicle and drives as fast as he possibly can to a place where he is seen and known by many people (had gotten rid of his jacket and hoodie and extra pants along the way) parks the car, gets out and mingles. LE obviously knows the time of death and they ultimately determine their POI can't be the guy because he (and/or his vehicle) was seen at XYZ place at 3:45 and well, there's just no way he could have gotten there that quickly. They look into him a little bit more, kick the tires, and someone close to him says, "There's no way that was his Common Vehicle XYZ parked at the CPS building. I actually own it, he drives it sometimes and the vehicle was here all day. It must have been a different Common Vehicle XYZ. They may even 100% believe it to be true, if they were busy doing or slightly distracted something else. I think LE wants the actual vehicle or a more detailed description of the vehicle so they can tie BG to it.

Feel free to poke away at this. Again, MOO, IMO, AF, ETC.

I think it's a good theory Wells. I will go a bit father and say the way things shook out at the last PC and ISP Carter's recent interview leads me to believe LE, especially the local LE, wanted to believe that the killer was a random, not someone in the immediate delphi community. I think they early on decided to look outward more than inward. That kind of thinking would have certainly lent itself to overlooking someone local who may have been watching and waiting to act as you have described. AJMO

 

[tresir2012]

Yes. I think this is a really interesting thought. If "down the hill" comes right after the video, and then the girls are chatting normally to each other while under the control of BG, that makes no sense. That means the rest of the recording would either happen before the video, or that they were already walking along for a while, in other words, he did not confront them on the bridge. I am now confused as well. I can't see the theory that many have espoused here about the timing of the video and audio as working unless what LE says about the rest of the audio (normal girl talk) being wrong. Help me out here. MOO

Thinking aloud, the girl talk had to come first, then BG caught in the video background, then Guys.......DTH, then abduction and murder. JMO

 

[Rocky1]

Here's my theory. Just going to throw it out there and hopefully I'm wrong. It's just a theory. All of this is my own opinion. Young white male between the ages of 25 and 30 who looked to be about 18 or 20 at the time of the crime. Became obsessed with one of the girls in some type of peripheral setting (observed her somewhere), although she was not aware of him. I don't mean romantically obsessed. I think he was obsessed with something he didn't like about her, through not fault of hers.

He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

While I think it was planned, I think he also got very lucky. And while I think he is slightly above average in intelligence, I think he thinks he is a lot smarter than he is. I think, as LE said, "you made mistakes."

I don't think SA was involved or the motive. I don't think he anticipated a second girl being there but she was. I think he has done things in the past that have led him to believe he is already evil in his own mind and since he already believes himself to be evil, he may as well indulge/revel in it. Or he may see himself as some type of a religious avenger, going around all hellfire and brimstone.

He hightails it back to his vehicle and drives as fast as he possibly can to a place where he is seen and known by many people (had gotten rid of his jacket and hoodie and extra pants along the way) parks the car, gets out and mingles. LE obviously knows the time of death and they ultimately determine their POI can't be the guy because he (and/or his vehicle) was seen at XYZ place at 3:45 and well, there's just no way he could have gotten there that quickly. They look into him a little bit more, kick the tires, and someone close to him says, "There's no way that was his Common Vehicle XYZ parked at the CPS building. I actually own it, he drives it sometimes and the vehicle was here all day. It must have been a different Common Vehicle XYZ. They may even 100% believe it to be true, if they were busy doing or slightly distracted something else. I think LE wants the actual vehicle or a more detailed description of the vehicle so they can tie BG to it.

Feel free to poke away at this. Again, MOO, IMO, AF, ETC.

Nice post Wells.

Snipped:
He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

My question is this...
If the girls didn't know that they were going to the bridge until a half hour or so before they went, then how did the perp know they'd be there?

 

[Wells]

Nice post Wells.

Snipped:
He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

My question is this...
If the girls didn't know that they were going to the bridge until a half hour or so before they did, then how did the perp know they'd be there?

Hence , "hightailed it to the bridge" If he's rushing, he's going to make mistakes.

 

[BlueShoe]

I must have missed something. When did LE say the rest of the audio Libby took was just normal girl talk?

I can't read back 100 threads to find the original reference, but the poster that I replied to mentioned it in response to another poster. I'm not sure of the exact statement so paraphrasing. At one point LE stated that there is also just regular girl talk and a mention of BG on the audio. There may well be additional stuff as well, so I may have worded it poorly. MOO

 

[Rocky1]

Hence , "hightailed it to the bridge" If he's rushing, he's going to make mistakes.

Yes, but how did he find out they'd be there in the first place?

 

[quadrille]

Perhaps there is some sort of language use here? Some parts of the US people say you'all some people say, Guys sometimes, dude. I wonder if Guys is indicative of ID?

Is there a language map of the USA

 

[Charlot123]

Agree with you again today, Charlot123.
So many excellent theories this morning.
Love this group, today: You are all thinking outside the box. (Wells, Ursamajr, etc. Fantastic, cogent stuff)

That being said, I want to state up front: I am ardently, over-the-top, PRO-Law-Enforcement.

Good "old-fashioned police work" will always win out. Always has. Always will.

But I have believed from the beginning, that LE had 2 major things against them.
This horrific crime could have been solved in the first 2 weeks.
And it wasn't. Why?

1) Someone tampered with the crime scene.
2) Someone close to LE (clerk, etc) was also "close" to BG, and steered the investigation wrongly in the first few days.

That is what my "hinky meter" is telling me.

(MOO: Amateur speculation and life experience, "what a long strange road it has been")

I also think that the perp was young and knew about modern technology, e.g., DNA. Our perps learn as well, and because they are perps, they are one step ahead of the LE.

This is why I wouldn’t buy “random people employed by the biggest employer” nor “the junkie” theory.

As to someone tampering with the scene or documentation, it is possible, but then it is more likely a relative then a friend, or it has to be a very, very close friend.

(I am even thinking how today people can place someone else’s DNA, esp., partial, at the crime scene).

ETA: I am pro-LE and would tend to help them. The problem is, some well-meaning people make poor witnesses. It would be my case about a car. Even sketches of the perps are not too reliable, coming from some people.

 

[Wells]

Yes, but how did he find out they'd be there in the first place?

Good question. Mutual SM friends? I'm 41. I'm not really sure how SC works.

 

[ab01]

Hence , "hightailed it to the bridge" If he's rushing, he's going to make mistakes.

I’m still learning towards a stranger to the girls with no known connection.

Familiar murders are statistically easier and quicker to solve than stranger ones

More than two yrs later I’m convinced that if this was done by someone known to the victims even loosely via Snapchat, friends lists etc that BG would already be convicted.

Arrest, preliminary hearing, trial already wrapped up

Jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

For the techies:
If Libby left her phone on audio record in her pocket, how long
would it continue to record?
Is it possible LE has an audio of complete crime as it happened?

By sheer coincidence I was trying to find the answer to this myself a few hours ago. It depends on the individual phone, the amount of free space left, the output file format used by your recording app, how many apps and files you have.

In answer to your second question:

At the press conference on Feb. 22, 2017 Sgt Slocum was asked a question re the contents of the recording. He responded, "This young lady's a hero. There's no doubt. To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior that is about to occur … as far as the first part of your question, that's something we're going to keep close to the vest as part of the investigation.

It’s impossible to read into that how much was captured. There were rumours regarding the length of the video but they remain rumours.

 

[ab01]

Good question. Mutual SM friends? I'm 41. I'm not really sure how SC works.

It’s my understanding only specific people can view your snap story. Even if it’s set to public said viewer would have to have had Libby in their friends list

LE has this information without a doubt

 

[Charlot123]

I’m still learning towards a stranger to the girls with no known connection.

Familiar murders are statistically easier and quicker to solve than stranger ones

More than two yrs later I’m convinced that if this was done by someone known to the victims even loosely via Snapchat, friends lists etc that BG would already be convicted.

Arrest, preliminary hearing, trial already wrapped up

Jmo

Can one make a false profile on SC? Most likely.

Also, it could be Libby’s sister SC friend. Also, Libby took great pics, could anyone repost them? This is another way for the perp to see them. One random post is enough...

 

[Wells]

It’s my understanding only specific people can view your snap story. Even if it’s set to public said viewer would have to have had Libby in their friends list

LE has this information without a doubt

I'm still leaning towards those initial statements, "One of two things happened," Bursten said. "That was a chance encounter. That's possible. Don't think it's likely but it's possible. Or, that person knew they were going to be there. That's possible as well. Those are things we're looking into."

UPDATE: Delphi teen records audio before murders