Atlantic City Eastbound Strangler 4 Women Found Dead behind Motel Egg Harbor Twp, Nov 2006

[Evey]

Good pickup about the investigators thinking she was killed elsewhere, though I would still say a crime scene could within a vehicle on site or somewhere nearby or elsewhere and contained to the vehicle. i’m not sold on that, but I am sold on a vehicle to transport them there, and think a vehicle is very likely for the initial contact/pick up of the victims.

I should probably re-read that nj.com piece when I get a moment, as I had overlooked that information.

I do think that heroin and too a lesser extant booze could be used to incapacitate the victims in short enough order. Injecting heroin is going to hit them heavy and fast. Booze will certainly take a bit longer, but the vicitms could have already been somewhat intoxicated from first contact with the perp. Cocaine I wonder about, as I believe that is a stimulant. Certainly smoking it will have a nearly instant affect, however I don’t know if it would incapacitate someone.

I’m thinking the perp was probably enticing the victims with the drugs directly, rather than offering cash. I’m thinking the lure of payment in an indulgent amount of drugs is going to possibly more attractive to a user than an equivalent amount of cash. It cuts out the middle step of taking the cash, finding a dealer, etc. all this could go down very quickly in a vehicle, which I guess is why I’m so reluctant to give that scenario up.

As someone who's tried Coke and has a lot of wolf of wallstreet type friends I'm positive Coke wouldn't do that. They likely did heroin which can wear off by the time needed or they can do a speedball once it's time to not be so out of it. Or simply snort a line or have some meth once she needed to wake up. Also no I've never been an addict but know a lot about how drugs effect you and what cocktails do what. Heroin would have her so zoned out she'd be defenseless

 

[Evey]

Good points as well. Which brings up the question of how would the killer know each victims particular drug of choice beforehand? From the beginning I've had the feeling that the victims knew the killer as he was running in the same circles as them. What they didn't know is that they were being stalked.

You can tell by their skin and how they act. And he could easily assume they did those hard drugs and that's why they'd been doing what they did. Meth and heroin are cheap so he could buy it ahead of time but using Coke or pain pills would entice them. It's like giving them Pepsi when they've been drinking offbrand crap. They did be excited and it would be a treat. Any drug besides cheap ones in them I bet the killer brought and he could easily make them out of it. They'd not know what was happening. I think he kept drugs on him for this all.

 

[The Nomad]

Simply supplying heroin or pain pill opiate things could do that. Especially heroin. Likely he gave them it then did what he did

Sure heroin can slow down the motor functions, but they'd still have a bit of fight in them, plus it takes time to kick in. More likely to be ketamine if anything, again however would take time and would be hit or miss in it's effectiveness. However, most importantly any sort of these kind of drugs would have shown up in the toxicology reports (not so quick to leave the system either). I'm not sure ACPD would publish the results of these though.

Chloroform however is about as quick as you could get.

 

[Evey]

I really don't know if AC and LI are connected but I am willing to believe that just because there seems to be a difference (clothed/nude/burlap/water)...there are similarities when looked at as a whole not in the details we may try to connect. I do not know very much about SK but I do know the ritual is what is important to their release. Therefore looking at the similarities...4 women (may be a significant number); bodies were carefully placed (whether nude in burlap or clothed in water coincidentally facing same direction); no defensive wounds on those that were able to be noted; strangulation (on those that were able to be noted); all sex workers who somehow were led to their killer. Even times of year may be important or a pattern.
The ritual may be in the manner they were selected; the prelude of gaining their trust and then the act of murdering them the way he desires; the methodical care he took with their disposal (whether it's nude in burlap placed approximate feet away or clothed without shoes in water with faces turned either intentionally or mistakenly...even if mistake, they were placed same way in order to accidentally turn that way).
What I find absolutely unbelievable is there is no forensic evidence that has been discussed. No semen, foreign hair or fibers. How can that be? Perhaps he has a ritual for this as well.
Just my late night thinking!

If it's the same guy he seems very anal and OCD the way he picks four and makes them just so abs matching etc and then leaving for an errand but not saying what tells me drugs or a John was it. When coming down off then they'd become irrational sick panicky angry mean jumpy etc they'd seem like someone having a panic attack and mood swings and they'd do anything to avoid that. Even sex with an odd John who provides drugs. A John giving them drugs would become a favorite and be a smart ploy for him.

 

[Evey]

While I'm not fully done catching up this whole lisk and ac4 stuff has ne reminded of Jack the Ripper. It's like the girls went and did some desperate thing for their drugs and it got them killed. This dude seems very into 4s cause how many sets of potential fours are there?

 

[Evey]

Also molly could make them zone out but I still think they'd put a fight up. Likely they used a needle since injecting hits faster than smoking and likely the John could see track marks or meth bumps. He could give them just enough heroin to almost kill them them do his thing. But I wonder if he killed them fast or wanted them alive for whatever thing he did..and Xanax and Valium would subdue them. Especially Xanax and especially if mixed.

 

[rdixon1120]

Also molly could make them zone out but I still think they'd put a fight up. Likely they used a needle since injecting hits faster than smoking and likely the John could see track marks or meth bumps. He could give them just enough heroin to almost kill them them do his thing. But I wonder if he killed them fast or wanted them alive for whatever thing he did..and Xanax and Valium would subdue them. Especially Xanax and especially if mixed.

He definitely wasn't into drugging them... I can possibly expand on that in a bit

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[rdixon1120]

As someone who's tried Coke and has a lot of wolf of wallstreet type friends I'm positive Coke wouldn't do that. They likely did heroin which can wear off by the time needed or they can do a speedball once it's time to not be so out of it. Or simply snort a line or have some meth once she needed to wake up. Also no I've never been an addict but know a lot about how drugs effect you and what cocktails do what. Heroin would have her so zoned out she'd be defenseless

It's actually incredibly easy to incapacitate a prostitute if she feels safe.. Knows you and has been with you before without the use of drugs. If you request sex from behind... A garrott is the best method. If traditional missionary position strangulation or moving up the torso so your knees are on the shoulders and she's completely defenseless without actually leaving a mark. This is why when "tricks" start wanting to switch from one position to the next repeatedly it's a warning sign something is definitely wrong... You try to defuse that by saying something like hey... I'm not a Barbie doll... My legs aren't detachable ..pick a position and call it a day.... Depending on the reaction you get... You know whether or not to hit your panic button which goes straight to your security. Not every girl has that kind of time street smarts or luxury of security

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[LR1]

Hello rdixon1120

Regarding that john you refer to can you give us his race, approximate age and maybe his physical stature? Was he in a apartment or house? We don't know if they were killed in a vehicle or residence but If it was the latter could he have transferred the bodies from inside to his vehicle without being noticed easily? What type of vehicle did he have? You say you know where he lived in 07 so are we assuming he lived there in Nov-06? And lastly if you don't mind can you clarify your efforts to bring this guy to the attention of LE, when and to whom did you talk to. Sorry for the 101 question routine, it's good to have you here and that last post of yours was a good one.

 

[rdixon1120]

Hello rdixon1120

Regarding that john you refer to can you give us his race, approximate age and maybe his physical stature? Was he in a apartment or house? We don't know if they were killed in a vehicle or residence but If it was the latter could he have transferred the bodies from inside to his vehicle without being noticed easily? What type of vehicle did he have? You say you know where he lived in 07 so are we assuming he lived there in Nov-06? And lastly if you don't mind can you clarify your efforts to bring this guy to the attention of LE, when and to whom did you talk to. Sorry for the 101 question routine, it's good to have you here and that last post of yours was a good one.

I will be discussing the details but right now I am trying to work with the correct agencies that can actually verify and track the info I have and feel it's best if we don't put too much info out mainly so as not to detract from or deter other possible viable leads from coming in. We are formulating a thread once we can list factual information that has been verified by some form of le or by Rachel and Josh themselves. Definitely will keep everyone posted

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[LR1]

I will be discussing the details but right now I am trying to work with the correct agencies that can actually verify and track the info I have and feel it's best if we don't put too much info out mainly so as not to detract from or deter other possible viable leads from coming in. We are formulating a thread once we can list factual information that has been verified by some form of le or by Rachel and Josh themselves. Definitely will keep everyone posted

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OK fair enough, I think that's a wise choice. My main concern was that your info was being passed along to the proper authorities even if previous attempts were unsuccessful and it sounds like that is being done. Thank you.

 

[rdixon1120]

OK fair enough, I think that's a wise choice. My main concern was that your info was being passed along to the proper authorities even if previous attempts were unsuccessful and it sounds like that is being done. Thank you.

Yeah unfortunately the proper authorities aren't real interested but there are people who can validate and utilize the information are working on it. Glad to see so many people care because as it was happening it really seemed as if no one did... Missed opportunities to end it... But it's never too late

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[LR1]

Yeah unfortunately the proper authorities aren't real interested but there are people who can validate and utilize the information are working on it. Glad to see so many people care because as it was happening it really seemed as if no one did... Missed opportunities to end it... But it's never too late

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It does suck when people who are willing to come forward are either not followed up on or not taken seriously. Sucks when people that do know things don't come forward too. The single press conference that was held in this mass murder tells us all we need to know as to the priorities of those in charge of this community. I'll not throw the entire investigative force under the bus and I'm sure you're wouldn't either because some could be running into the same roadblocks. It's quite a notch on the belt for a detective to catch one of these creatures so maybe there's a few left in that agency who are giving it there best effort. Oh, and while there at it, related or not here's hoping they find some justice for Joyce V as well.

 

[cynical_1]

Yeah unfortunately the proper authorities aren't real interested but there are people who can validate and utilize the information are working on it. Glad to see so many people care because as it was happening it really seemed as if no one did... Missed opportunities to end it... But it's never too late

Hopefully you've contacted The Atlantic County Major Crimes Unit with your information.

http://www.acpo.org/majorcrimes.html

Good luck.

 

[rdixon1120]

Hopefully you've contacted The Atlantic County Major Crimes Unit with your information.

http://www.acpo.org/majorcrimes.html

Good luck.

Yes... They seemed lukewarm at best. I believe Rachel can get more done than I can.

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[sakura.shinra]

After watching TKS's segment on the AC4 I realised something about the way their bodies were staged, that I hope might be helpful to other websleuthers. A brief bit about me first, I did my university degree in anthropology with a special interest in death rites and funerary rituals. What I noticed about the AC4 is that their bodies were laid out face down with their heads facing east, lying side by side, neatly spaced with no overlap. This is an almost perfect reversal of medieval Christian burial practices, which buried a person face up, with their head to the west and the belief at the time was that to be buried in any other way damned the soul to purgatory. In fact, non-Christians, or those considered to be the 'wrong kind' of Christian, were sometimes buried wrongly as a punishment and an object lesson to others, as if to say "We have the power to condemn your eternal soul." There are Christian communities who still practice these burial rites to this day. The AC4 are buried face down and their heads facing east, a reversal of the burial requirements for 'good Christians.' Could this be a commentary on their moral status as 'fallen women?'

 

[cynical_1]

After watching TKS's segment on the AC4 I realised something about the way their bodies were staged, that I hope might be helpful to other websleuthers. A brief bit about me first, I did my university degree in anthropology with a special interest in death rites and funerary rituals. What I noticed about the AC4 is that their bodies were laid out face down with their heads facing east, lying side by side, neatly spaced with no overlap. This is an almost perfect reversal of medieval Christian burial practices, which buried a person face up, with their head to the west and the belief at the time was that to be buried in any other way damned the soul to purgatory. In fact, non-Christians, or those considered to be the 'wrong kind' of Christian, were sometimes buried wrongly as a punishment and an object lesson to others, as if to say "We have the power to condemn your eternal soul." There are Christian communities who still practice these burial rites to this day. The AC4 are buried face down and their heads facing east, a reversal of the burial requirements for 'good Christians.' Could this be a commentary on their moral status as 'fallen women?'

You bring up a few interesting points which have been speculated upon for quite awhile. The “facing east” aspect is a point of contention. Some believe it was the tide that positioned them to face east while others think it was intentional.

However, I think it's agreed that all four were found in several inches of water “face down”. I haven't seen the crime scene photos so I'm taking it that the four were found with the top of their heads “facing east” and that their faces were submerged in water “face down”.

Logistically, thinking about how one would go about repeating this pattern led me to believe that the individual responsible for placing them there most likely had to step directly into the drainage ditch to accomplish the same staging for four different bodies.

Scenario 1: Killer carries the body over his shoulder (most likely) and wades into the watery ditch. He places them on their back in the water. He then grabs them by their clothes and flips them to face downward, positioning the body while it is floating to face eastward (if you believe it wasn't the tide).

Scenario 2: Killer drags the body to the bank of the ditch. In this scenario the shoes would still be on the victim as the dragging would scuff up the victims toes/heals considerably. For an individual with a foot fetish this might be unacceptable. With the body on the bank he removes their shoes. At this point he is faced with how to get the body into the water, a body that is dead weight. The easiest way would be to step into the water and continue to drag the body until it's in the watery ditch.

I've posted here, on more than one occasion, that I do believe that the killer entered the water to position the bodies exactly how he wanted them to be found. Afterall, it is only several inches deep. To that effect, I would theorize that this individual had a propensity to wear boots (work-boots) during the commission of these crimes.

Others, like yourself, are probably better qualified than me to comment on this guys motivation. Yet I do believe he was on a mission to kill as many sex workers as possible and that the bodies were staged to reflect the contempt he had for these unfortunate women.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[cynical_1]

You can tell by their skin and how they act. And he could easily assume they did those hard drugs and that's why they'd been doing what they did. Meth and heroin are cheap so he could buy it ahead of time but using Coke or pain pills would entice them. It's like giving them Pepsi when they've been drinking offbrand crap. They did be excited and it would be a treat. Any drug besides cheap ones in them I bet the killer brought and he could easily make them out of it. They'd not know what was happening. I think he kept drugs on him for this all.

Researching Molly Dilts, I found it odd that this article mentions that she was purchasing crack yet her toxicology report makes no mention of it in her system, only alcohol. I don't believe investigators would have reason to hide the fact that she was using crack.

One friend, Richard Hernandez, said that Ms. Dilts was a prostitute, and that she had told him she considered overdosing on pills or hanging herself. “Molly cried a lot,” said Mr. Hernandez, 30, who met Ms. Dilts when she was buying crack cocaine on Georgia Avenue. “I’d always hug her, because if you started talking with her, she’d cry.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/nyregion/05slay.html

Perhaps she was purchasing the crack for someone other than herself. Someone who might be, as you say, enticing them with pain pills. Just a thought.

 

[cynical_1]

One last point to make before the caffeine wears off. Molly Dilts arrived in Atlantic City by bus on Oct 7th. According to this article about her in The Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

Mr. Bocchino said Molly stood out because "she didn't look like a crack head." Molly became close to Kim Raffo, a former PTA mother who turned to crack and prostitution.
Molly stopped showing up at Papa Joe's in late October or early November.
http://www.post-gazette.com/frontpage/2007/02/04/The-girl-in-the-ditch/stories/200702040162

I have read in other articles and threads posted here that Molly and Ms. Raffo had become friends. If that is the case then they couldn't have become acquainted until at least Oct. 14th, the day that Ms. Raffo arrived back in AC from her six weeks or so in Long Island with her ex-husband.

My thinking is that perhaps Molly Dilts was not actually the first victim as we have been so long led to believe. Barbara Breidor vanished from Ventnor, NJ. On Oct. 17th. Was Molly Dilts still alive when Ms. Breidor disappeared?

According to the above article and several eyewitness accounts it's entirely possible. It also brings up the possibility that both may have been killed on the same day. They were the two who were found closest together in the drainage ditch.

Just my opinion.

 

[rdixon1120]

Researching Molly Dilts, I found it odd that this article mentions that she was purchasing crack yet her toxicology report makes no mention of it in her system, only alcohol. I don't believe investigators would have reason to hide the fact that she was using crack.

One friend, Richard Hernandez, said that Ms. Dilts was a prostitute, and that she had told him she considered overdosing on pills or hanging herself. “Molly cried a lot,” said Mr. Hernandez, 30, who met Ms. Dilts when she was buying crack cocaine on Georgia Avenue. “I’d always hug her, because if you started talking with her, she’d cry.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/nyregion/05slay.html

Perhaps she was purchasing the crack for someone other than herself. Someone who might be, as you say, enticing them with pain pills. Just a thought.

Typically she wouldn't use it until after the trick was over... It's not a drug you want to do beforehand. She probably never got that far.. And if he found the crack on her.. That could have been what set him off

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