Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #16 *Arrest*

Status
Not open for further replies.

they'll get you

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
14,218
Reaction score
52,251

Amalgam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
169
Reaction score
691
Maybe he has (angry) little man syndrome.
In most of the pics I see of Karen & Borce they appear near the same height.
160 centimetres =
5 feet 2.992 inches

Karen is described as 160cm tall, slim build and shoulder length brown hair.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.d...placed-near-Melbourne-home.html?source=images

He may well have little angry man syndrome, but he is well over 5ft 3in tall. Perhaps Karen was in high heels in the photos your thinking of?

As mentioned in a post of mine in a much earlier thread, I bumped into Borce once at Highpoint, the day after Karen’s funeral.

He isn’t tall, but he didn’t strike me as short either & I’m by no means tall at about 5ft 11in... he is somewhere between about 5ft 9in and my height - unless he has special platform shoes like Kim Jong-Un.
 
Last edited:

UndiscoveredTruth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
4,493
Reaction score
20,945
He may well have little angry man syndrome, but he is well over 5ft 3in tall. Perhaps Karen was in high heels in the photos your thinking of?

As mentioned in a post of mine in a much earlier thread, I bumped into Borce once at Highpoint, the day after Karen’s funeral.

He isn’t tall, but he didn’t strike me as short either & I’m by no means tall at about 5ft 11in... he is somewhere between about 5ft 9in and my height - unless he has special platform shoes like Kim Jong-Un.
Amalgam, are you the member who bumped into Borce coming out of an elevator? Borce's demeanour didn't come across anywhere near how the media were portraying him to be, at least to you and your son? He appeared to be very kind and polite, and you got no bad vibes from him at all. In fact, you didn't even realise it was him at the time as he appeared to be completely the opposite to how the media portrayed him. Was it you, Amalgam?

It's just interesting me, is all. I'm not sure how someone is supposed to act when having camera's and microphones shoved in their face and the reporters asking inappropriate questions, at a time when your spouse is missing and/or has been murdered. Let's just say BR replied with a "Of course not, why would I kill my wife--that's a ridiculous question to ask"....it would leave him open to more questions being fired at him and with that, more for the media to write about and more for the public (to pick his words and actions apart.) Better to stay quiet and ignore all questions and reporters when approached. Does he look angry when being approached by the media, yes and for a very good reason, in my opinion.

I think BR is guilty, of what, I'm not 100% certain, but he definitely knows what happened to Karen. I'm not 100% certain she didn't actually leave the house by foot that morning. We did get word from a very honest, reliable member that apparently, Karen was seen out walking that morning and the person who saw her did contact the police but for unknown reasons they (Police) didn't appear very interested at the time it was reported. I can't let that very important bit of information slide. I do remember a search of the surrounding streets happened a while into the investigation so perhaps the Police did eventually take more interest into that particular sighting. We did get curious and a lengthly discussion took place at the time, regarding drains etc. (Sorry, I wish my memory wasn't so bad and I could recall more :( )

So today is the day we will find out if there is enough evidence for BR to stand trial, right? I believe there is enough evidence but I do hope they have more, alot more incriminating evidence to produce at the trial if there is one.

Sorry for the long wided post everyone--just had a few things I needed to get off my chest! All MOO.

Justice For Karen!!!!
 

Oz Jen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
812
Reaction score
1,187
Amalgam, are you the member who bumped into Borce coming out of an elevator? Borce's demeanour didn't come across anywhere near how the media were portraying him to be, at least to you and your son? He appeared to be very kind and polite, and you got no bad vibes from him at all. In fact, you didn't even realise it was him at the time as he appeared to be completely the opposite to how the media portrayed him. Was it you, Amalgam?

It's just interesting me, is all. I'm not sure how someone is supposed to act when having camera's and microphones shoved in their face and the reporters asking inappropriate questions, at a time when your spouse is missing and/or has been murdered. Let's just say BR replied with a "Of course not, why would I kill my wife--that's a ridiculous question to ask"....it would leave him open to more questions being fired at him and with that, more for the media to write about and more for the public (to pick his words and actions apart.) Better to stay quiet and ignore all questions and reporters when approached. Does he look angry when being approached by the media, yes and for a very good reason, in my opinion.

I think BR is guilty, of what, I'm not 100% certain, but he definitely knows what happened to Karen. I'm not 100% certain she didn't actually leave the house by foot that morning. We did get word from a very honest, reliable member that apparently, Karen was seen out walking that morning and the person who saw her did contact the police but for unknown reasons they (Police) didn't appear very interested at the time it was reported. I can't let that very important bit of information slide. I do remember a search of the surrounding streets happened a while into the investigation so perhaps the Police did eventually take more interest into that particular sighting. We did get curious and a lengthly discussion took place at the time, regarding drains etc. (Sorry, I wish my memory wasn't so bad and I could recall more :( )

So today is the day we will find out if there is enough evidence for BR to stand trial, right? I believe there is enough evidence but I do hope they have more, alot more incriminating evidence to produce at the trial if there is one.

Sorry for the long wided post everyone--just had a few things I needed to get off my chest! All MOO.

Justice For Karen!!!!

UT - part of your post reminded me of something I saw while driving locally a few months back. A woman was walking quickly on the opposite side of the street (no footpath). She appeared agitated. She was well-dressed, had a handbag but no shoes. Struck me as odd because it was a cold morning. So yes, it can happen but I think it's rare.
 

they'll get you

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
14,218
Reaction score
52,251
Does anyone know of a precedent that a jury can overturn a manslaughter charge to murder?

Mr Ristevski’s lawyers have conceded there is sufficient evidence to proceed to trial on a manslaughter charge, but they want the murder charge dropped.

David Hallowes SC asked that a lesser charge be considered.

“The submission we make is that the evidence is not of sufficient weight to support a conviction on the charge of murder, and therefore Mr Ristevski should be discharged on that charge,” he said.

Judge to hand down findings on Ristevski
 

SouthAussie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
25,267
Reaction score
134,569
Does anyone know of a precedent that a jury can overturn a manslaughter charge to murder?

Mr Ristevski’s lawyers have conceded there is sufficient evidence to proceed to trial on a manslaughter charge, but they want the murder charge dropped.

David Hallowes SC asked that a lesser charge be considered.

“The submission we make is that the evidence is not of sufficient weight to support a conviction on the charge of murder, and therefore Mr Ristevski should be discharged on that charge,” he said.

Judge to hand down findings on Ristevski

I think that a jury has to decide their verdict on the exact charges laid. They cannot arbitrarily say that they don't think he is guilty of this, but they do think he is guilty of that ('that' being something that he has not been charged with).
If that is what you mean.
 

sosocurious

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
6,374
Reaction score
16,299
Does anyone know of a precedent that a jury can overturn a manslaughter charge to murder?

Mr Ristevski’s lawyers have conceded there is sufficient evidence to proceed to trial on a manslaughter charge, but they want the murder charge dropped.

David Hallowes SC asked that a lesser charge be considered.

“The submission we make is that the evidence is not of sufficient weight to support a conviction on the charge of murder, and therefore Mr Ristevski should be discharged on that charge,” he said.

Judge to hand down findings on Ristevski

No idea really.
Can the judge say the murder charge stands and it is up to the jury after hearing further evidence at trial, to decide if it is murder or manslaughter?
As was the case with GBC and Tostee. I think.
That would require Borce telling the jury his version. Explaining how an accidental killing occurred. Wouldn't it?

The prosecution say
“This isn’t just an accidental killing that ends up in the death of his wife and he decides, through panic or fear, to dispose of her body. He goes to significant lengths. It goes well beyond that.

“It starts within a very short time after the death of Karen Ristevski and doesn’t end there. It goes on and on and on.”

Judge to hand down findings on Ristevski
 
Last edited:

they'll get you

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
14,218
Reaction score
52,251
I think that a jury has to decide their verdict on the exact charges laid. They cannot arbitrarily say that they don't think he is guilty of this, but they do think he is guilty of that ('that' being something that he has not been charged with).
If that is what you mean.

Thank you SA so could the opposite apply that it goes to murder charge but be downgraded to manslaughter by the jury?
 

SouthAussie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
25,267
Reaction score
134,569
No idea.
Can the judge say the murder charge stands and it is up to the jury after hearing further evidence at trial, to decide if it is murder or manslaughter?
As was the case with GBC and Tostee. I think.
That would require Borce telling the jury his version. Explaining how an accidental killing occurred. Wouldn't it?

The prosecution say
“This isn’t just an accidental killing that ends up in the death of his wife and he decides, through panic or fear, to dispose of her body. He goes to significant lengths. It goes well beyond that.

“It starts within a very short time after the death of Karen Ristevski and doesn’t end there. It goes on and on and on.”

Judge to hand down findings on Ristevski

The difference is that Tostee was charged with murder and manslaugher, that allowed the jury to make a decision of either/or (or neither).
Baden Clay's murder charge and conviction was reduced to manslaughter, by the Court, on appeal. Then reinstated as murder by the High Court.

The charge needs to be brought on by the Prosecutor/Court. The jury cannot just make a random decision all by themselves, about something that has not been charged.

That is my understanding, anyway.
 

UndiscoveredTruth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
4,493
Reaction score
20,945
UT - part of your post reminded me of something I saw while driving locally a few months back. A woman was walking quickly on the opposite side of the street (no footpath). She appeared agitated. She was well-dressed, had a handbag but no shoes. Struck me as odd because it was a cold morning. So yes, it can happen but I think it's rare.
Hi Oz Jen. Did you glance at your watch and take a mental note of what time it was? I'm asking because I have found myself, (when coming across similar sightings, or rather, any sighting that strikes me as odd and out of the ordinary) glancing at my watch and the first chance I get, jotting it down on paper as well as day and month etc. I automatically do it, I never used to but since following cases on websleuths it has made me more aware of the importance of remembering every detail i.e. time/date/place, just in case......

I'm thinking it happens more often than we are aware of, it's just, the woman doesn't turn out to be missing and then murdered. I remember an incident that happened last year, a couple were arguing in the main street in town. The woman appeared to be sitting on the steps of the entrance to a shop. It was after midnight. The guy was standing on the footpath leaning against a post. I watched from across the road. She got up and stormed off, she was in her pj's, no shoes. They walked into the very Hotel I was staying in, so were not homeless (it did cross my mind that was the case at first). It was not something I expected to see. Sure, couples arguing after a night out on the town, fully dressed and in many cases drunk, seen it many times before but this couple, totally different scenerio--defs, made me sit up and take notice.
 

sosocurious

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
6,374
Reaction score
16,299
The difference is that Tostee was charged with murder and manslaugher, that allowed the jury to make a decision of either/or (or neither).
Baden Clay's murder charge and conviction was reduced to manslaughter, by the Court, on appeal. Then reinstated as murder by the High Court.

The charge needs to be brought on by the Prosecutor/Court. The jury cannot just make a random decision all by themselves, about something that has not been charged.

That is my understanding, anyway.

Justice Byrne said it was the prosecution’s case that Baden-Clay was guilty of murder on the basis he killed his wife with intent.

He said the defence’s case was the accused did not kill his wife and it was a reasonable possibility she died of unnatural causes consistent with evidence: drowned, fell, died from alcohol or antidepressant toxicity or suffered “serotonin syndrome” which led to her drowning or falling.

He said if the jury found Baden-Clay not guilty of murder, they should consider whether he was guilty or not of manslaughter.

Category: | Herald Sun
Gerard Baden-Clay murder trial: Judge tells jury manslaughter an option, prosecutor says accused wanted to wipe slate clean
 

SouthAussie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
25,267
Reaction score
134,569
Justice Byrne said it was the prosecution’s case that Baden-Clay was guilty of murder on the basis he killed his wife with intent.

He said the defence’s case was the accused did not kill his wife and it was a reasonable possibility she died of unnatural causes consistent with evidence: drowned, fell, died from alcohol or antidepressant toxicity or suffered “serotonin syndrome” which led to her drowning or falling.

He said if the jury found Baden-Clay not guilty of murder, they should consider whether he was guilty or not of manslaughter.

Category: | Herald Sun
Gerard Baden-Clay murder trial: Judge tells jury manslaughter an option, prosecutor says accused wanted to wipe slate clean

So, an instruction by the Court. Not something that the jury could arbitrarily decide.

As I thought, it must be a decision by the Prosecutor/Court.

Thanks. :)

I wonder if this is what Borce's lawyers are angling for. And perhaps it will open a door to an appeal for them, if manslaughter is not given as an option.
 

they'll get you

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
14,218
Reaction score
52,251
OK got it. Only the court of Appeal can set aside the murder finding.

It's pathetic when you think about an accused denying EVERYTHING and then saying 'DOH oh maybe I did unintentionally kill and dispose of the body'. IMO that should be a charge of wasting taxpayers time and money.

Former Brisbane real estate agent Gerard Baden-Clay's murder conviction for killing his wife Allison has been downgraded to manslaughter.

The Court of Appeal set aside the murder finding, saying there was not enough evidence to prove he intended to kill the mother-of-three in 2012.

During Baden-Clay's appeal four months ago, his lawyers argued it was possible he could have unintentionally killed his wife during an argument at their home in Brookfield, in Brisbane's west.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-08/gerard-baden-clay-wins-appeal/7009464
 

they'll get you

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
14,218
Reaction score
52,251
I'm refreshing my memory as I go...

In response to the appeal court's ruling, Acting Attorney-General Cameron Dick said he was seeking legal advice on whether the Court of Appeal ruling could be challenged.

"I have requested legal advice about the prospects of success on an appeal against the decision of the Court of Appeal involving Gerard Baden-Clay," he said in a statement.

"Once that advice has been received and considered, a decision will be made as to whether an appeal should be lodged.

"The Attorney-General must make a decision on any possible appeal within 28 days."

In the judgement handed down on Tuesday, the Court of Appeal said while Baden-Clay lied about the cause of scratches on his face and tried to hide his wife's body, there was a reasonable hypothesis he was innocent of murder.

It could not be ruled out that there was a physical confrontation in which Allison fell and hit her head, the ruling by Chief Justice Catherine Holmes, Justice Hugh Fraser and Justice Robert Gotterson found.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-08/gerard-baden-clay-wins-appeal/7009464
 

Oz Jen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
812
Reaction score
1,187
Hi Oz Jen. Did you glance at your watch and take a mental note of what time it was? I'm asking because I have found myself, (when coming across similar sightings, or rather, any sighting that strikes me as odd and out of the ordinary) glancing at my watch and the first chance I get, jotting it down on paper as well as day and month etc. I automatically do it, I never used to but since following cases on websleuths it has made me more aware of the importance of remembering every detail i.e. time/date/place, just in case......

I'm thinking it happens more often than we are aware of, it's just, the woman doesn't turn out to be missing and then murdered. I remember an incident that happened last year, a couple were arguing in the main street in town. The woman appeared to be sitting on the steps of the entrance to a shop. It was after midnight. The guy was standing on the footpath leaning against a post. I watched from across the road. She got up and stormed off, she was in her pj's, no shoes. They walked into the very Hotel I was staying in, so were not homeless (it did cross my mind that was the case at first). It was not something I expected to see. Sure, couples arguing after a night out on the town, fully dressed and in many cases drunk, seen it many times before but this couple, totally different scenerio--defs, made me sit up and take notice.

Hi UT - I absolutely did look at my watch and make a mental of the time, date and location! (Good old WS training, eh!) There was nowhere for me to turn the car around but glancing in my rear view mirror I saw the woman walking across a nearby garden towards the house. I made a note of the time and address, too.:D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top