GENERIC HEADER NEWS MISSING PERSONS

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

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  1. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    He didn't stage it as a suicide. He staged it as a double murder. If he wanted to stage it as a double suicide he would have written a note. Even if he had, the trauma to Honey's face would have made it suspicious.
     
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  2. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so then if another person wasn’t nvolved in Barry’s death, then nothing could’ve been staged after his death, right?. It had to have been possible that death occurred exactly in the position the body was found, how it was restrained upright, the physical injury to the neck had to have correlated to the placement of the belt....all that. That’s what forensic experts examine, to determine if a crime scene was true or was it physically altered by another suspect to conceal a criminal offence.

    When forensic professionals become involved in death rulings, the outcome isn’t a matter of public opinion. Targeted double homicide..
     
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  3. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    You slay me.

    When forensic professionals become involved in death rulings, the outcome isn’t a matter of public opinion. Wayne Millard; Suicide.

    Same thing right?
     
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  4. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    But in that case, when police looked more closely, they realized it was murder. Just like with the Shermans.
     
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  5. Kaley Smith

    Kaley Smith Well-Known Member

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  6. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Maybe so, but the question is; what would be gained by killing him? And why kill his wife? Barry was basically the figurehead of a big company. Killing him would change nothing as the lawsuits would just continue. And if you are going to kill someone, why not just do it like 99.99999999999% of the other killers in the world? Ive said it many times, nobody stages a murder to look like a different kind of murder.

    But just like the Jonbenet Ramsey case, once you fool the masses, you'll never get the case back on track.
     
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  7. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Think what you want, but if Dellen Millard hadn't killed more people he would have gotten away with his fathers murder, and likely Laura Babcock's as well. Detectives aren't perfect. They are, after all, human. That is why we have courts, in case you have forgotten. LE can say whatever they like, but until they put a case in front of a jury they are no better than you or I.
     
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  8. JDG

    JDG Websleuther

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    As persons perhaps not, but they DO have access to the evidentiary, coroner and other files and thus they are BETTER than you and I at reaching a conclusion.

    Usually, the knowledge they glean leads to an eventual resolution.

    Criminals usually screw up, that's why the prisons are full.
     
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  9. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    I certainly agree that detectives aren't perfect, and I never blame people for making honest mistakes, hindsight is 20/20, etc.

    What I meant was, if people around WM had insisted he would never commit suicide, or there'd been another dead person in the home, I can see them taking a much closer look at WM's death (the way they did with the Shermans), committing serious resources to the forensics and scene of death clues, and would have been unwilling to rule it a suicide just because it had been staged that way.
     
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  10. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Yes but the problem is that the families of 90% of people that commit suicide are going to say that their loved one wouldn't have done that.
     
  11. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Most criminals screw up because they simply aren't that bright. Most crimes aren't overly thought out, they are spur of the moment. People act in anger and they have absolutely no thoughts about evading detection until it is too late.

    It's funny, I hear a lot of people here say that murder suicide is an outrageous idea, however they never sit back and realize how absolutely ridiculous this crime is in the context of a double murder.
     
  12. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    I'm not disagreeing, the reality is that more people commit suicide than are murdered.

    All I am saying is, I believe police took the time and resources to thoroughly investigate the death of the Shermans, and their final ruling of double murder is based on that extra-thorough investigation.

    In comparison, Wayne Millard's death did not receive an extra-thorough investigation, and that's why his murder was declared suicide.

    So, it's possibly true that the wealth and social staus of the Sherman's got them a better quality investigation.

    But I still believe it was the results of the investigation that led police to rule double-murder. They didn't just spend a month pretending to investigate, before coming out with a ruling to please the powers that be.
     
  13. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    RSBM
    Yes, bizarre and ridiculous.

    "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Conan Doyle.

    I think that's a big part of police methodology: it's as much a process of elimination as it a search for positive evidence.

    I would like to see an FBI-type profile for this murderer.
     
  14. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see a FBI profile of the killer, but I think there is a good chance that the killer(s) were hired, so I'm not sure it would be meaningful, except if one could assume that the exact manner of their contracted deaths was specified and carried out. Other than insane or cold, callous revenge, for whatever reason, I can't think of another motive that would result in such violent, horrific deaths.
     
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  15. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    DM, the person found guilty of his fathers death, also informed LE that his father was an alcoholic and was depressed about something, both high risk factors to suicide. Other than the one police officer who testified, not one person adamantly disputed suicide. Alcoholism, depression, financial difficulty, DM obviously offside to WMs family business venture all were possible indications of suicide.

    Did you notice, after the Shermans were found dead, it was the opposite, everyone who knew them personally disputed the m/s rumours. Barry absolutely had no reason to end his life, nor did he have reason to murder his wife. KW was the only person who publicly furthered that ridiculous scenario that he later admitted he fabricated and embellished. The integrity of his opinion is even more questionable because his amicable interactions with them ended more than 15 years ago and because of the cousins failed lawsuit, he’s clearly extremely biased.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  16. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    It’s possible to contract out a killing, but I’m not convinced it’d involve staging the bodies in such as way as they were found. Several articles on the web indicate the most common reason for staging a crime is to conceal the identity of the killer, to confuse, to create deception. In a contract killing, the outcome is typically quick death of the victims, the killer immediately flees the scene.

    The other reason I think it wasn’t a contract killing is because of the positioning of the bodies. To me it represents both revenge and humiliation, execution style and something I imagine would’ve been personally gratifying to a diabolical-minded killer, to stage and observe.

    For what reason do you think a contracted killing might be involved?
     
  17. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I don’t view this crime to be ridiculous in the context of double murder whatsoever. What I think it ridiculous is for any of us to one-up the official death ruling without having knowledge of either the autopsy results or findings of the investigation.
     
  18. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Actually, there has been some criminal profiling on contract killers, but done by academics. Hitmen for hire: academics unlock the secret behaviour of Britain's contract killers
    "The killers typically murder their targets on a street close to the victim's home": think of the Russian hitmen who allegedly smeared poison on the Skripal's door in London. "Most hits involved a gun, with three victims stabbed, five beaten to death and two strangled".
     
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  19. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Highlighting some earlier information and wondering about the significance if any, of using leather belts ( as opposed to rope for example) to not only strangle but to hold the bodies in an upright, semi-seated position.
    If the Sherman's were already deceased, why go to the extra trouble of securing the bodies to the pool railing?
    Is that a pro killer's idea of good service, "going the extra mile" and "tying it all up with a bow"?
    Was it even necessary to tie the Shermans up at all, surely they would have been compliant if outnumbered or under threat of a gun?
    Why bother to undo secured wrists, only to have jackets pulled down essentially reducing mobility in arms that can no longer move anyway?
    Were the killers directed to do that, are those actions the ones that suggest a " staged homicide" as opposed to something staged to look like m/s ect.?
    Was the staging meant to look like a professional execution, or an actual execution?
    imo, speculation.

    Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
    By Kevin DonovanChief Investigative Reporter
    Fri., Jan. 19, 2018 rbbm.
    "Barry and Honey Sherman were killed in what looks like a professional, contract killing. That’s the conclusion of a variety of experts who have been hired by the family to probe the case.

    Here’s the new information: There are markings on the Shermans’ wrists, an indication that at some point their hands were tied together, though no rope or other ties were found near the bodies."

    "The ligature neck compression, sources say, was likely done by two men’s leather belts found at the scene wrapped around the necks of the victims."

    Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position.

    "Sources with intimate knowledge of the Sherman family’s investigation have used words like “professional,” “contract killing,” and “staged homicide” to describe the scene."
    "While several homeowners with cameras that can see parts of the Sherman home in the distance have provided video to both police and the Sherman family detectives, sources have told the Star that nothing has come from a study of the various videos."


    "While the bodies were discovered on Friday, Dec. 15, it appears the Shermans died between late Wednesday Dec. 13 and Thursday afternoon, Dec. 14. Family sources say the last known cellphone communication (text or audio) from the Sherman couple was Wednesday during the day."
     
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  20. FromGermany

    FromGermany Well-Known Member

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    bbm
    From the beginning, I had thought about "their hands were tied together", as it could also mean: their both pair of hands were tied together to 2 sets of hands with one rope (not only HS' hands and separately BS' hands). If it was this way: the spouses tied together, then it would make sense to have it done for controlling over a time of several hours. So the perp/s hadn't to aim their gun at both HS/BS all the time, while maybe proceeding certain actions like questioning/searching for files/searching for data/trying for blackmail/and so on. If the Shermans died between Wednesday in the evening and Thursday in the afternoon, there was a big time span for mannny things, the perp/s could have tried before the deadly strangling. Incidentally, HS' bureau was in the basement (near the swimming pool area?) and overloaded with files. Source: an interviewer, who talked to her at home. Can't find the link at the moment. It was a nice and quite lengthy article.

    Btw: Now it is said, the Shermans were strangled by the leather belts?? I wonder. Early in the investigation it was said, they were strangled with something other like a rope and only later bound to the railing with 2 men leather belts.
    Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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