Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[andreww]

Would they (or at least one) not then just slide onto the floor? It appears these were jammed somehow.

They wouldn't go anywhere. The sticking point is the shoulder, and no matter how limp your shoulders are, the jacket cannot pass over the shoulder bladed by gravity alone.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Interesting theory but Barry arrived home only a couple of hours after Honey. No way rigor would have set in that quickly. Been a while since I looked it up but I believe its closer to 12 hours before full rigorous sets in. And it doesn't sound plausible that someone would tie her up when they were going to kill her immediately. But hey, if the murderer spent five or six hours there, who knows.

Rigor can be instantaneous as in the link I posted.

ETA: hands are bound to control the victim. Likely the first thing they’d want to do.

 

[deugirtni]

Would they (or at least one) not then just slide onto the floor? It appears these were jammed somehow.

I haven't done the calculations based on the measurements... how high that pool railing was, compared to how long the belt was in inches, compared to the size of the human's body, and what that would look like in relation to how low to the ground would the hands end up. The railing was I believe 34 or 36" or 42" or 40"? Then add a few inches for the length of belt between the railing and the neck (how many inches?)? then add the length of the particular torso, which isn't exactly sitting on the floor.. and how long its arms are.. anyone willing to give it a go? see where the hands end up? How much room would there be for the coat to fall all the way off the arms? I think there are some variables, like... how tight or loose were the sleeves of the coat in relation to what the person was wearing (sweater underneath or just a thin shirt?) What kind of fabric was it - a slinky kind that would slink right off, or a more natural fiber that might cause a bit of friction to prevent that? the weight of the coat fabric? Also, it was said that H was lying more on her side, so that may have prevented the coat sleeves from coming down more than a bit off the shoulder? Barry's coat may have been more close fitting, which would also keep it on a bit better than if the coat were very loose fitting... so many variables. This about the coats being off the shoulders was published very early on, I believe? I think it was in the Frank magazine article? Is it even true? Do we know? I believe it may have been repeated by the PI team? They may/would have seen photographs, undoubtedly. All I know is that I would have trouble keeping my own winter coat on my shoulders if I was strung up by my neck, slightly leaned back, and coat undone. with no muscle-tone. When I am sitting on my chair right now, and I put my arms at my sides, my arms come down further than my chair seat, so it is conceivable to me that once the wrist thingies were cut off, the coat may start coming down, but then stop. Also depending on whether or not the coats had elasticized wristbands on the interior, which would also prevent them from coming off of the hands to come all the way down. Sooooo many factors that we're not privy to, that it seems futile to insist that either the coats were staged like that, or that they started receding on their own. I don't believe anyone can state either way without knowing all of the above details. jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

They wouldn't go anywhere. The sticking point is the shoulder, and no matter how limp your shoulders are, the jacket cannot pass over the shoulder bladed by gravity alone.

How about you tell us. Why were the winter coats still on the bodies when they were found?

 

[dotr]

Rbbm, the jackets..
Still wondering if HS and BS for that matter, each took off their jackets when they returned home, but the killer put them back in order to help restrain them or to muddy the order/timing of the events?
imo, speculation.
WARMINGTON: Questions surround deaths of billionaire couple
"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

It is believed the camera in the pool area had been disconnected."

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News
"Greenspan offered some details about how the Shermans were found, noting that ligatures were wrapped around their necks and then around the pool railing, which forced them into an upright position. Barry's legs were outstretched, with one crossed over another. He was also still wearing his glasses, and the sleeves of his jacket were pulled behind him, which would have restricted the use of his arms."

WARMINGTON: $10 million questions in unsolved slayings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman
“Barry Sherman’s legs were outstretched with one crossed over the other in a passive manner, wearing his undisturbed eyeglasses and his jacket pulled slightly behind his back which would have prevented use of his arms,” said Greenspan."

 

[MistyWaters]

Rbbm, the jackets..
Still wondering if HS and BS for that matter, each took off their jackets when they returned home, but the killer put them back in order to help restrain them or to muddy the order/timing of the events?
imo, speculation.
WARMINGTON: Questions surround deaths of billionaire couple
"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

It is believed the camera in the pool area had been disconnected."

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News
"Greenspan offered some details about how the Shermans were found, noting that ligatures were wrapped around their necks and then around the pool railing, which forced them into an upright position. Barry's legs were outstretched, with one crossed over another. He was also still wearing his glasses, and the sleeves of his jacket were pulled behind him, which would have restricted the use of his arms."

WARMINGTON: $10 million questions in unsolved slayings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman
“Barry Sherman’s legs were outstretched with one crossed over the other in a passive manner, wearing his undisturbed eyeglasses and his jacket pulled slightly behind his back which would have prevented use of his arms,” said Greenspan."

Thanks for all those links. That’s what I recalled as well, most of the early media reports indicated that coats appeared to be used to restrict arm movement......as if they were props in the staging of a double suicide scene.

The use of the coats reminds me of an execution type hanging in the moves, when the victims arms were tied behind their backs. That’s so they’re prevented from attempting to grasp the neck ligature to try to loosen it, either consciously or by automatic reflex.

 

[casesensitive]

It is possible that the killer(s) didn't stage anything. Maybe what they left behind was their unnecessarily gruesome, double murder-with-a-message.

If LE sources hadn't alluded to M/S early on, and if KW hadn't gone public with his M/S claim, we might not be discussing staging of a M/S at all. If it was staging of M/S, it was a poor job, debunked by forensic autopsies even before any meaningful investigation. Just a thought.

ETA: staging "of a M/S".

 

[MistyWaters]

It is possible that the killer(s) didn't stage anything. Maybe what they left behind was their unnecessarily gruesome, double murder-with-a-message.

If LE sources hadn't alluded to M/S early on, and if KW hadn't gone public with his M/S claim, we might not be discussing staging of a M/S at all. If it was staging of M/S, it was a poor job, debunked by forensic autopsies even before any meaningful investigation. Just a thought.

ETA: staging "of a M/S".

I agree, it’s possible a staging of m/s was never the intention of the killer and it’s just the repetitive emphasis that’s resulted in it becoming indisputably significant to this case.

LE can get tunnel vision but I think sometimes so can we.

 

[deugirtni]

Thanks for all those links. That’s what I recalled as well, most of the early media reports indicated that coats appeared to be used to restrict arm movement......as if they were props in the staging of a double suicide scene.

The use of the coats reminds me of an execution type hanging in the moves, when the victims arms were tied behind their backs. That’s so they’re prevented from attempting to grasp the neck ligature to try to loosen it, either consciously or by automatic reflex.

One wouldn't roll the coats back onto the arms if they were staging a double suicide though. If that was the intent, then it seems more like a plain execution. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

It is possible that the killer(s) didn't stage anything. Maybe what they left behind was their unnecessarily gruesome, double murder-with-a-message.

If LE sources hadn't alluded to M/S early on, and if KW hadn't gone public with his M/S claim, we might not be discussing staging of a M/S at all. If it was staging of M/S, it was a poor job, debunked by forensic autopsies even before any meaningful investigation. Just a thought.

ETA: staging "of a M/S".

I have often wondered about that too... that the killer(s) just simply lucked out when LE intimated M/S in the early hours, and it stuck.

 

[MistyWaters]

One wouldn't roll the coats back onto the arms if they were staging a double suicide though. If that was the intent, then it seems more like a plain execution. imo.

I agree. And the visual perhaps was only for the gratification of the killer/s.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

It is possible that the killer(s) didn't stage anything. Maybe what they left behind was their unnecessarily gruesome, double murder-with-a-message.

If LE sources hadn't alluded to M/S early on, and if KW hadn't gone public with his M/S claim, we might not be discussing staging of a M/S at all. If it was staging of M/S, it was a poor job, debunked by forensic autopsies even before any meaningful investigation. Just a thought.

ETA: staging "of a M/S".

I put on my coat tonight to go walk my dog and then spent a few minutes trying to see if my coat would fall off my shoulders, or if I could restrain my arms, zipped, unzipped, different jacket..

Happy to read your post for a wake up call and that I didn’t have to walk to my neighbours and ask them to untangle me.

 

[casesensitive]

Lexi--can't stop laughing.

 

[ldlager]

If it was staged by a murderer to be m/s:

We know Honey arrived first, then hours later Barry arrived. In those hours, you’d expect Honey to have removed her coat.

Theory: Honey was restrained and killed soon after she arrived home, with her coat on. The killer removed HS’s restraints to stage the scene, but maybe rigor had fixed them in place.

Maybe he tried but failed to remove her jacket. If it were a form-fitting leather coat I think it might be almost impossible to remove once rigor to set in.

In staging the scene, Barry’s coat was pulled down to match.

From wiki:

I don’t think we know that Honey arrived home first. She could have gone somewhere after leaving Barry’s office. We have all assumed she arrived first but that may not be the case.

 

[casesensitive]

I don’t think we know that Honey arrived home first. She could have gone somewhere after leaving Barry’s office. We have all assumed she arrived first but that may not be the case.

This is true, and I suspect that LE would know based on the surveillance camera evidence they collected.

 

[Satchie]

Interesting idea. Hanging is a very rare form of murder. Strangulation is very common. You have to overpower the victim in either case, but for the first method, I think, it would be much more difficult to control the victim, unless they believe resistance was futile, as in death penalty executions. For other homicides by hanging, there's a mob.

If not intended to be seen as some variation on suicide, then, IMO, it was intended as some form of execution.

 

[andreww]

How about you tell us. Why were the winter coats still on the bodies when they were found?

I think there are a couple of possibilities. I believe that Barry googled information about how to painlessly hang oneself and learned that one should restrain their arms. he then left the house to dispose of the phone in the middle of the night. This might explain what police were looking for on the roof, in their yard and in the sewers. He could have also made an initial attempt and found that he couldn't help using his arms to save himself, possibly explaining why the autopsy might suggest that he was strangled prior to the actual hanging. Or, he simply wanted it to look like the couple were abducted and murdered.

For whichever of the above reasons, he binds Honey's wrists, possibly using shoelaces, and hangs her by the pool. Then he begins to set the scene for himself but finds that he cannot bind his own wrists together or finds that with them bound, he cannot manage to apply the belt around the railing and his neck. So he takes a step backwards and removes the bindings from himself and Honey. At this point, who knows how many hours after her death, he decides to use the jackets. This allows him to put the jacket on, affix the belt setup, then simply pull the jacket back before stretching his legs forward.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think there are a couple of possibilities. I believe that Barry googled information about how to painlessly hang oneself and learned that one should restrain their arms. he then left the house to dispose of the phone in the middle of the night. This might explain what police were looking for on the roof, in their yard and in the sewers. He could have also made an initial attempt and found that he couldn't help using his arms to save himself, possibly explaining why the autopsy might suggest that he was strangled prior to the actual hanging. Or, he simply wanted it to look like the couple were abducted and murdered.

For whichever of the above reasons, he binds Honey's wrists, possibly using shoelaces, and hangs her by the pool. Then he begins to set the scene for himself but finds that he cannot bind his own wrists together or finds that with them bound, he cannot manage to apply the belt around the railing and his neck. So he takes a step backwards and removes the bindings from himself and Honey. At this point, who knows how many hours after her death, he decides to use the jackets. This allows him to put the jacket on, affix the belt setup, then simply pull the jacket back before stretching his legs forward.

You disagree with KW, that Barry called in an assistant?

 

[andreww]

You disagree with KW, that Barry called in an assistant?

I've got no idea what KW knows that would suggest that. He might know of some dynamic between them that the rest of us are unaware of, but no I don't believe that.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've got no idea what KW knows that would suggest that. He might know of some dynamic between them that the rest of us are unaware of, but no I don't believe that.

I believe KW came up with the suggestion of an assistant because Barry, at the age of 75, wouldn’t be physically capable of the physical maneuvering required to stage such a scene.

ETA:
I must admit, I lost your plot line long ago and sometimes I wonder if you have as well. So Barry murders Honey in some kind of rage, indications of his assault on her face. Please tell me again why it’d be very important for Barry to stage his wife’s body right beside his, exactly like his, in a side-by-side suicide position, so the world would see he was an murderous abuser, something about preserving his legacy??????