Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[Jax49]

Come to think of it, I think both victims lived close to the nature center and could have easily walked. The fact that they wanted a ride could support the possibility that the victims were not that outdoorsy and were not inclined to spend several hours communing with nature- unless they had a pre-arranged meeting.

OK, I'm officially lost. Nature center?

IIRC, they were only supposed to be on the trails/bridge for about one and a half hours.

ETA: Snipped from the timeline.

1:38
Libby and Abby were dropped off by Kelsie (Libby's sister) to go hiking near Monon High Bridge , according to family.

3:11
Derrick, Libby's dad call Libby while passing Wilson Bridge, no answer, he leave message at voicemail; he is almost there.

 

[susiQ]

Thanks for your best answer. If effectively untraceable social media is readily available via snap chat, then that could well explain how the review of the victims social media accounts has not produced results. Then factor in the possibility of the difficulty of the review being compounded if the perpetrator added "10 minute inter net search" precautions to the mix

In regards to not using Snap Chat, I forbid originally in my house. Then, I gave up and went on trust. I figured that if my teen age son really wanted to, he could easily use the phone to communicate in a dozen hidden ways besides Snap Chat that I have never heard of.

Unfortunately, there's more bad news about it. I just contacted my younger friend. The texts disappear quicker than the images, and yes, you can post them to your "story" and hang on to them a bit longer. But, what she found really disturbing is that the images become the property of the app provider. Now think long and hard on that one. Always remember, if it doesn't cost anything, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT! JMO

 

[susiQ]

Come to think of it, I think both victims lived close to the nature center and could have easily walked. The fact that they wanted a ride could support the possibility that the victims were not that outdoorsy and were not inclined to spend several hours communing with nature- unless they had a pre-arranged meeting.

I think it was a short ride, but a bit of a hike if walking.

 

[155etta]

A mortician wrote the following:

“The majority of people who come into our home have at least one open-casket viewing, even for those who choose cremation. This can present a problem because of the staggering number of very violent ways you can die. We had a homicide victim who had been stabbed over a dozen times and then set on fire. We’ve had a depressing number of people with self-inflicted gunshot wounds to the head and chest. I’ve even dealt with a decapitation. And, with very few exceptions, they’ve all had open caskets.

Restoration is as much an art form as it is a science, and with a good mortician, there's very little that can't be fixed. We have a wide range of tools at our disposal, depending on what needs to be done. Some of the stuff is pretty basic, like covering bruises and cuts with wax and cosmetics. If the person had heavy injuries to their head, we can rebuild large portions of their skull using a special type of putty, wax, or plaster of Paris. We can reattach severed limbs using special materials to rebuild the damaged bone and muscle.

So for instance, to fix a decapitation, you use a wooden dowel to rejoin the head and body, then suture the neck back together. With a little wax and cosmetics, they can even wear a normal shirt or dress.”

https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1368-5-horrifying-truths-about-funeral-homes-from-undertaker.html

I could have gone my whole life without reading that last paragraph.

 

[Boxer]

Kids are naive and too trusting, adults even take risks like this...it's possible they were in contact with someone on TikTok, Snapchat.

Snapchat actually keeps data that can be subpoenaed by police. KIK literally does not retain texts.

 

[Boxer]

I think it was a short ride, but a bit of a hike if walking.

Too far to walk to go walking.
Also boring walking on a the monotonous shoulder of a farm road.

 

[Boxer]

I support this with a targeted scenario. The publically available information suggests that the victims were sufficiently alarmed by BG that they took his photograph, but apparently not so alarmed that they refused his command or asked for an explanation.

This possibility supports the possibility that BG knew them, but they were only partially familiar with him. As he got closer, they recognized him as say, the acquaintance of our friend “F”, or “the relative of acquaintance “A”.

Such possibilities could support a scenario of:

- Victims were lured to the bridge to meet person “P”. They were supposed to provide information, make a promise, make an apology, or though more unlikely make a payment or accept an exchange.

- The victims see BG approaching. They get concerned as they were expecting person “P”. They take his picture.

- They then partially recognize BG as the un-named "friend of a friend". BG directs them down the hill to complete the discussion, transaction etc. Maybe BG states that he is a stand in for “P”…. .

MOO the girls behavior beforehand could support they were meeting someone.
Knowing this is a young assailant has made me rethink the possibility they meeting someone.
The fact that these girls were junior high going to high school age makes being lured to a meeting to find out about some gossip very plausible in my opinion.

MOO If the assailant knew what to specifically imply and he knew to get them to meet "him"on a trail on a holiday, MOO then he is more than "local," he is at least fringe in their circle.

 

[Blueberry2720]

As with DNA discussion, the what is at the end of the bridge discussion, the what is in his pocket discussion......posters have no real choice but to go round and round regarding these things. That is, if they wish to remain connected to the case by using this site.

That is because the rules prevent us from discussing so many other things that are way more important and way more pertinent to solving the case. JMO.

Just an example: It is absolutely impossible here to rule out any poster's suspect, because we cannot discuss anybody who is not a POI. So, folks...folks like me....hang onto believing we know who did it, it keeps us up nights, and this community cannot help us put our minds at ease.

I think that anybody who is tired of the circular discussions needs to put this site aside and/or seek what they are looking for elsewhere. (And, I have not yet done either.)

Complaining about it is not constructive, I have found.

You forgot all the conversations re: FSG. He works at the park and has been a fixture there and in the community for ages. Seems the posters new to this case dig up all the old topics and stir the pot all over again. No offense to them, I think it's a natural reaction, but I chuckle everytime someone starts thinking FSG might be BG. JMO

 

[Cutiekitty]

Thanks for your best answer. If effectively untraceable social media is readily available via snap chat, then that could well explain how the review of the victims social media accounts has not produced results. Then factor in the possibility of the difficulty of the review being compounded if the perpetrator added "10 minute inter net search" precautions to the mix

In regards to not using Snap Chat, I forbid originally in my house. Then, I gave up and went on trust. I figured that if my teen age son really wanted to, he could easily use the phone to communicate in a dozen hidden ways besides Snap Chat that I have never heard of.

That’s the route I took with the kiddos too. Even if you don’t get them a phone they can always access the apps from their friend’s phones. I decided to educate them on the dangers of the internet and SM and then trust that they’d make good choices. I also made sure I knew about the apps they were using just in case they decided to try to get sneaky. So far, it’s been working out.

 

[ACE422]

Well said. In the case of a targeted scenario (real or perceived knowledge of drug activity in this case), I think two aspects need to be explored:

1 - Were the murders connected to a scheduled meeting of any kind and for any motivation?
2 - Were the murders the result of the murderer stalking the victim and waiting for the "right" opportunity?

Of these two broad general possibilities, I think option '1' is far more likely as it is far less logistically complicated, allows the attacker to fully prepare, and allows the attacker to chose the time and the place. If option '1' is then explored- how was the meeting arranged? Via social media that "erases" itself (not a techno person) and cannot be traced? Or, via word of mouth? Is there social media that self erases?

I know that terrorists use / used the simple trick of giving both people access to an email account. They then enter conversation messages and "save to draft". This is harder to trace as nothing leaves the account. My guess is that a local meth dealer with narco fantasies and techno aptitude could be pretty sophisticated using social media with out traces.

I would dare say that NSA needs to be contacted if the investigators think that it was an arranged meeting and that the perpetrator techno adept. I believe they have offered quiet assistance in other high profile cases in the areas of phone tracing and cryptographic analysis.

That would be beneficial help to have for tracing electronic footsteps. What would prevent an investigation’s access to such assistance?

 

[Cutiekitty]

Snapchat actually keeps data that can be subpoenaed by police. KIK literally does not retain texts.

BBM - Some data and a lot less than people think JMO. As @susiQ stated earlier - SC owns the pics/videos. That’s tons of data going through their servers daily that isn’t saved to stories (which are saved in the SC cloud). There’s no way they are keeping all of that and what they do actually keep probably isn’t kept for long. I’d guess it follows the retention schedule spelled out in their LE guidelines.

SC meta data probably has a decent retention period. KIK keeps meta data also, so there is that.

 

[mtnlites]

Come to think of it, I think both victims lived close to the nature center and could have easily walked. The fact that they wanted a ride could support the possibility that the victims were not that outdoorsy and were not inclined to spend several hours communing with nature- unless they had a pre-arranged meeting.

I don't walk to it and it's the same distance. Ravines, fences, uneven ground, traffic...there is nothing "easy" about the route. The distance you see on the map makes the route look easier than it is.

 

[Cryptic]

I don't walk to it and it's the same distance. Ravines, fences, uneven ground, traffic...there is nothing "easy" about the route. The distance you see on the map makes the route look easier than it is.

Thank you for the correction based on first hand experience.

 

[Cryptic]

OK, I'm officially lost. Nature center?

Libby and Abby were dropped off by Kelsie (Libby's sister) to go hiking near Monon High Bridge , according to family.

I used the term "nature center" to mean the bridge and surrounding trails. This is probably not the best term. Maybe "hiking trails"? Or just, "Monon High Bridge"?

 

[Jax49]

I used the term "nature center" to mean the bridge and surrounding trails. This is probably not the best term. Maybe "hiking trails"? Or just, "Monon High Bridge"?

I realized that about the time my ability to edit expired. Officially it seems to be the Monon High Bridge Trail.

 

[Moreack]

So, Snapchat? I’m behind. Someone said that the Snapchat location thing wasn’t active in 2017. Were there other apps that could track where a person was in 2017? Could someone please paraphrase what the thoughts are now? I can’t believe that this case hasn’t been solved yet. Someone has to know who BG is. MOO.

 

[margarita25]

Have you got a link to the Leazenby interview where he quotes that, I've missed it. Is it in the media thread?

(eta it is not in the media thread, i just looked so when we find it we need to add it)

( It’s not? I missed posting a Leazenby interview in the media thread?? Are you sure?? Which interview? I’ll make sure it’s posted there, which one?? )

 

[ijuswannaplay2]

First let me say this: I don't have a clue as to how Snapchat works or how to save your conversations. But, about a year ago my fiancée's teen daughter was using my fiancée's phone to communicate with other kids because she didn't have a phone of her own yet. She eventually got her own phone but had not deleted the Snapchat app from my fiancée's phone. My fiancée and I were able to pull up the Snapchat app and go back through numerous conversations her daughter had been having because they were all right there. Needless to say, daughter got in trouble for a few of the conversations she had been having, one in particular.

 

[susiQ]

First let me say this: I don't have a clue as to how Snapchat works or how to save your conversations. But, about a year ago my fiancée's teen daughter was using my fiancée's phone to communicate with other kids because she didn't have a phone of her own yet. She eventually got her own phone but had not deleted the Snapchat app from my fiancée's phone. My fiancée and I were able to pull up the Snapchat app and go back through numerous conversations her daughter had been having because they were all right there. Needless to say, daughter got in trouble for a few of the conversations she had been having, one in particular.

Interesting.....but how old were the chats? Here's something I pulled from Google Search:

"Snapchat is giving users the option to keep their individual Chat messages for up to 24 hours, according to a Snap Inc. spokeswoman. Typically, your Chat messages will disappear upon opening. ... This new Snapchat feature will let you keep your Chats for up to 24 hours. This feature does not turn on automatically."

 

[JudgeJudi]

It would appear from what family has said, that LG couldn't be sure of exactly when she could get there as she needed a ride. So it may have been a bit "up in the air" until KG confirmed she would take the girls. I wonder when exactly KG agreed to drive her there.

Extract from Becky's interview with Gray Hughes:

So they came out and were doing some filing – they were out with the file cabinets, filing and stuff – and Kelsi came out – see, I don’t know the exact time of that, you know, why would we have paid attention to that – but she came out – it was probably close to 1:00 and said, “Hey, I work at 4:00. I’m going to go to a friend’s house for a little bit and then, then I’m going on to work. Well, as soon as Libby heard that, Libby jumped up and said, “Hey, will you take us to the bridge?” and Kelsi said, “I don’t care”.
...
So they left here right around – give or take a couple of minutes – they left here right around 1:30. What I do know is Kelsi had said that she was talking on the phone to her boyfriend when she dropped them off, and I looked at phone records and it shows that she called or the call came in from her boyfriend at 1:38. So she was talking to her boyfriend at 1:38 when she dropped them off.