Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110

[buggiegirl]

I believe that is LE's intended message, but it depends on which LE you listen to and when. At the 22 April PC, the ISP Superintendent indicated the original sketch was now 'secondary' and the new one 'primary. After the PC a clarification was put out that the first sketch was no longer relevant. (That would indicate to me they ARE NOT the same person.) Then 2-3 weeks after the PC, ISP Superintendent, in a news interview, indicates that the killer could be a combination of both sketches. (So now they're the SAME person?)

I've always thought they were saying that the truth of what BG looks like will likely lie somewhere between what we see in the video and what we see in the 2nd sketch. Not that the killer is a combination of the two sketches. They were very clear that the first sketch is irrelevant now.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

I have only followed a few cases on WS but they all seem to end in an arrest. In the Lucas-Chynna case they just found the accused fugitives dead. But I keep coming back and checking on this one of Abby and Libby for the past 2 1/2 years. I keep hoping there will be an arrest but nothing yet.

There are lots of good theories and ideas being put forward and I am sure the families appreciate keeping the case alive. After this spring I thought they were so close but it appears to be another dead end. But I will keep checking and waiting for the "arrest".

 

[tresir2012]

Wow. If 15 mins, starting at pic to point where found took some time. How long do you estimate it took to walk from photo site to remains site? Doesn’t sound like to me to be enough time to control one girl and SA the other, or both? No SA??

Edit to correct some auto corrects lol

3 minutes from south end of bridge to CS. 3 minutes from CS to cemetery. TL4S has done some maps and time estimates in post 13 on page 1 of this thread.

 

[moonlessnight]

I now think the twist is the presence of video recording equipment; not just Libby's.

I don't think they possibly could have DNA back at that early stage of the investigation when that was stated.. but I could be wrong on the timing.

 

[tresir2012]

I've always thought they were saying that the truth of what BG looks like will likely lie somewhere between what we see in the video and what we see in the 2nd sketch. Not that the killer is a combination of the two sketches. They were very clear that the first sketch is irrelevant now.

JnRyan is correct, they did later change their statement to say somewhere between the two sketches.

 

[tresir2012]

I now think the twist is the presence of video recording equipment; not just Libby's.

What do you mean? Someone else (the perp?) also recording something like a snuff movie?

 

[moonlessnight]

I thought there was MSM stating that sketch 1 was a man who was recently arrested in a child trafficking/rape sting. I thought LE stated that he was seen on or near the trails and was suspicious and thought to be the suspect by various witnesses. Once he was arrested this past spring, he was cleared in the Delphi murders, which is when sketch 1 became primary. I will try to find MSM articles on that.

BG is in disguise of some sort, so the primary sketch doesn't match him, but it matches the actual person in disguise on the bridge.

I've always thought they were saying that the truth of what BG looks like will likely lie somewhere between what we see in the video and what we see in the 2nd sketch. Not that the killer is a combination of the two sketches. They were very clear that the first sketch is irrelevant now.

 

[moonlessnight]

I hope not, but I do think it is very possible.

Speculation: Maybe Libby and/or Abby fought so hard they damaged it or made it get lost, and it was later found as evidence (not that the attack was actually on the equipment, but was damaged or lost before the murders occurred and later found as evidence with only footage of the girls alive (and touch DNA of the suspect) on it. -MOO

What do you mean? Someone else (the perp?) also recording something like a snuff movie?

 

[tresir2012]

One of the things that’s been bothering me is that the video of BG was released just a couple of days after the murder to the public. So I feel like any witness descriptions of someone they saw that either looked suspicious, or who fit the description of who they thought they should be looking for was just that- trying to fit someone they saw with an image of who LE put out there from the beginning on video (or still shot at the time). The sketch was released months later, and aggregated from more than one person.

As we’ve discussed here before, it’s SO hard to remember the face and body and clothing of a random person that you were not specifically trying to “notice” when asked to recall them later. At best you get close. But many people (most I might argue) just have some vague idea and then try to fit in pieces with a sketch artist.

So the problem I have is that I feel the witness descriptions taken multiple days and weeks later would have been highly influenced by the video still shot. Whether the witness meant to or not. I just don’t have confidence that the subconscious of a witness wouldn’t start “remembering” characteristics of a stranger they saw that were swayed by the still image.

All to say- I can’t being myself to put much stock into every sighting of an OBG. Sure, someone probably saw the guy we all see in the bridge video (who definitely resembles that first sketch LE put out)- I don’t doubt that. But I have a hard time believing ALL of the sightings of a guy looking like that were necessarily accurate.

And then you have the possibility of some of the witness sightings of OBG are deceptive on purpose, and therefore not accurate.

Also, I’m personally not on board yet with the timeline that concludes the crime took place in 15 minutes. Which, as recently demonstrated, is what could legitimately be concluded if all of these supposed BG sightings were accurate. I don’t see that 15 minute time span very realistic.

So overall I’m not able to say with any confidence the recent timeline makes sense. All MOO. But I’m certainly impressed with all of the detailed discussion and maps and such. It’s very hard to keep track of all the “time stamps” and locations and you guys have done a great job.

MOO.

So how do you feel about YBG sketch made two days after? Presumably you are happier with that because it was made quickly and was not affected by seeing the pic of BG.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm very much in agreement with you about the witness statements. I started making the map measurements just for myself, to see if the witness timelines made sense. They do, but in the back of my mind, I keep wondering how they had the times so precise? Were these people taking photos that they later referred to? Did GH or someone else influence those precise times? Were there so few people on the trail at the time that when they saw the video, they were sure they'd seen someone like that? Those are all valid questions, and the very reason I can't put a lot of weight into the witness statements alone.

It's a little unnerving to me how well the timeline fits, however. Almost too perfectly. That's why I wonder where those precise times came from.

All that being said, I do think 15 minutes is realistic. That's a long time. JMO

I think the times are accurate because they are based on photos (CME) or phone calls (DG) effected by the witnesses and family. They were then able to look at the times of those items to accurately work it all out. GH's videos "Derrick's Path" and the family interviews document this.

 

[tresir2012]

BBM

I respect your opinion, but I do not think it’s realistic in this case.

Is it theoretically possible? Sure. But I think it’s highly unlikely. 15 minutes is the absolute minimum amount of time, IMO, the event could have taken place and would have required everything going just right. Moving at quickest speed, essentially no resistance from girls, no obstacles of any kind encountered, simple and easy murder, etc. I just don’t think it’s at all likely in real life.

I don’t put a lot of stock into the LE comment “this video was taken minutes before criminal activity occurred.” Meaning, I believe that statement to be true but the word “minutes” has multiple interpretations, and “criminal activity” doesn’t have to mean completed murder and done at the crime scene. It could mean he brandished a gun, etc.

I could certainly be wrong when the details finally come out, but for now I do not think 15 minutes makes sense.

All JMO.

I think the wording LE used early on was the recording was done just prior to criminal activity occurring (possibly the abduction). It was later stated they were murdered within minutes of the recording. So LE were talking about two separate things, the beginning of criminal activity and the end being the murders. MOO.

 

[TL4S]

BBM

I respect your opinion, but I do not think it’s realistic in this case.

Is it theoretically possible? Sure. But I think it’s highly unlikely. 15 minutes is the absolute minimum amount of time, IMO, the event could have taken place and would have required everything going just right. Moving at quickest speed, essentially no resistance from girls, no obstacles of any kind encountered, simple and easy murder, etc. I just don’t think it’s at all likely in real life.

I don’t put a lot of stock into the LE comment “this video was taken minutes before criminal activity occurred.” Meaning, I believe that statement to be true but the word “minutes” has multiple interpretations, and “criminal activity” doesn’t have to mean completed murder and done at the crime scene. It could mean he brandished a gun, etc.

I could certainly be wrong when the details finally come out, but for now I do not think 15 minutes makes sense.

All JMO.

I agree that the "video taken before criminal activity occurred" does not have to mean abduction or murder. Stalking, assault (threatening imminent harm), indecent exposure, or many other activities could account for that wording. We don't know when he gained control of the girls. Did it start at the south end of the bridge, the north end of the bridge, somewhere on the bridge, or in the woods? We don't even know when "down the hill" was spoken.

In my mind, when I'm considering a 15 min event, I'm not counting the time it took to get to the location he killed them (which IMO is the same location they were found). And that's because I don't know for certain that he was even in control of them until their final location. Maybe he was, and he led them through the woods, or across the bridge, or across the creek. We just don't know.

But we do know that they ended up in that spot south of the cemetery. Unfortunately. And I think 15 minutes there, with the girls, was enough time. I also respect your opinion, though, and appreciate you questioning things. That's why we're here. Makes me think harder. I would be interested in knowing how long you feel he might have spent with the girls.

 

[tresir2012]

Has it been verified Kik was used?
I am trying to keep up with the thread, but it’s weighty.

Even if it poofed, there is still a way to extract the “transaction”, although requires very sophisticated measures. It can be done.

Amateur opinion and speculation

The Twitter link for Libby that I posted shows Libby's Kik address buy we have no way of knowing if it was being used.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I did not know there could be a transaction record in Kik for the police to recover. Interesting, no transactions would eliminate Kik as a possible tool for a set up.

There should be meta data. This user communicated with that user on this time and date. No content of communication would be retained. Now, the problem is how do you determine who the user actually is? Not familiar with Kik, but if it’s like SC you do not have to use a phone number or a legit email to create a profile. You also do not have to use a real name. The IP addresses are captured, but BG could’ve used public or unsecured WiFi and/or a burner phone. If he used a burner with data and didn’t have many other transactions it’s going to be tough to ID him from a Kik profile. Tough, but not impossible. Definitely time consuming.

 

[Cutiekitty]

BBM

I respect your opinion, but I do not think it’s realistic in this case.

Is it theoretically possible? Sure. But I think it’s highly unlikely. 15 minutes is the absolute minimum amount of time, IMO, the event could have taken place and would have required everything going just right. Moving at quickest speed, essentially no resistance from girls, no obstacles of any kind encountered, simple and easy murder, etc. I just don’t think it’s at all likely in real life.

I don’t put a lot of stock into the LE comment “this video was taken minutes before criminal activity occurred.” Meaning, I believe that statement to be true but the word “minutes” has multiple interpretations, and “criminal activity” doesn’t have to mean completed murder and done at the crime scene. It could mean he brandished a gun, etc.

I could certainly be wrong when the details finally come out, but for now I do not think 15 minutes makes sense.

All JMO.

Did LE say the video was taken before criminal activity or the recording was before criminal activity? I honestly do not remember.

 

[TL4S]

Did LE say the video was taken before criminal activity or the recording was before criminal activity? I honestly do not remember.

BBM
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana
"That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”

DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack
Indiana State Police released a picture of a suspect, which was taken by Liberty on her cell phone. She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity."

 

[Cutiekitty]

BBM
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana
"That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”

DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack
Indiana State Police released a picture of a suspect, which was taken by Liberty on her cell phone. She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity."

Thanks! Could not remember how it was worded.

 

[MJPeony]

So how do you feel about YBG sketch made two days after? Presumably you are happier with that because it was made quickly and was not affected by seeing the pic of BG.

Yes, I am much more confident in the YBG sketch being accurate.

 

[MJPeony]

I agree that the "video taken before criminal activity occurred" does not have to mean abduction or murder. Stalking, assault (threatening imminent harm), indecent exposure, or many other activities could account for that wording. We don't know when he gained control of the girls. Did it start at the south end of the bridge, the north end of the bridge, somewhere on the bridge, or in the woods? We don't even know when "down the hill" was spoken.

In my mind, when I'm considering a 15 min event, I'm not counting the time it took to get to the location he killed them (which IMO is the same location they were found). And that's because I don't know for certain that he was even in control of them until their final location. Maybe he was, and he led them through the woods, or across the bridge, or across the creek. We just don't know.

But we do know that they ended up in that spot south of the cemetery. Unfortunately. And I think 15 minutes there, with the girls, was enough time. I also respect your opinion, though, and appreciate you questioning things. That's why we're here. Makes me think harder. I would be interested in knowing how long you feel he might have spent with the girls.

So the theory of 15 minutes in the crime scene itself is more reasonable to me (vs 15 minutes to get them to the crime scene, murder them, and then be sighted on the trails or cemetery), although I do think it’s still shorter than what I think is probable. (But certainly *possible* to kill 2 girls once at the crime scene in 15 minutes.)

At this point, I think BG probably had around 40/ 45 minutes with the girls. Based on the 2:05(ish) photo of Abby, the 2:30 video, and the 3:15 (ish) calls from DG to Libby falling flat. I also think it’s very possible that BG was still at the CS when he heard Libby’s phone ring and hightailed it out of there. Why he didn’t grab the phone I don’t know- other than some reason related to the fact he panicked and had to get out of there (maybe he couldn’t find it quickly enough or he knew the phone would be traceable if he took it). But he left the phone regardless of how long he’d had with them, so I guess that part of my theory is neither here nor there

MOO.

 

[TL4S]

So the theory of 15 minutes in the crime scene itself is more reasonable to me (vs 15 minutes to get them to the crime scene, murder them, and then be sighted on the trails or cemetery), although I do think it’s still shorter than what I think is probable. (But certainly *possible* to kill 2 girls once at the crime scene in 15 minutes.)

At this point, I think BG probably had around 40/ 45 minutes with the girls. Based on the 2:05(ish) photo of Abby, the 2:30 video, and the 3:15 (ish) calls from DG to Libby falling flat. I also think it’s very possible that BG was still at the CS when he heard Libby’s phone ring and hightailed it out of there. Why he didn’t grab the phone I don’t know- other than some reason related to the fact he panicked and had to get out of there (maybe he couldn’t find it quickly enough or he knew the phone would be traceable if he took it). But he left the phone regardless of how long he’d had with them, so I guess that part of my theory is neither here nor there

MOO.

That sounds like a reasonable theory, IMO.