Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[r3d-ros3]

New to the Websleuths discussion of the Delphi murders, but from my previous reading on the case, I wonder what about the a_shots creator / account has invited LE's speculation of multiple account owners? Were there discrepancies in tone or language? I know KAK has insinuated that he was not the sole user of the account (in leaked interviews), but if there was another primary user of the account, wouldn't it be fairly easy for LE to pinpoint? Thanks, all, for any info.

 

[Megnut]

So, one person kidnapped the victims, and he planned on taking them to a vehicle, then driving them to another location to meet/gift KAK, so they both could (each) murder a girl? I really don't think this is realistic.

No, I don't think they were abducted just to be murdered. I think they were abducted for the reasons most girls are abducted. Murder comes after.

I don't think the day played out according to plan.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

There must have been a vehicle there somewhere, since the perpetrator got himself there and away.

I wonder if he parked and escaped completely unnoticed.

Maybe KAK is being coy with us, about not meeting up with Libby, because she didn't show up.

Maybe he knew what the plan was, that a certain somebody was going to corral and control the girls, march them to his vehicle and then to a preselected second location, two girls, one for himself and one for KAK, a sick little gift, kind of like the escorts in LV, only 100,000 times more twisted.

So KAK maybe meant what he said. Sardonic. Libby never showed up. At the second location. Leaving out the part that it wasn't going to be nice meet up.

JMO

at here was a camera at the storage area on 300 north side near the curve that swings east of the CPS building.
So that access on that end was covered by camera.

On the north side of Deer Creek that leaves, stopping short of the camera on 300 from i25 or coming in from the east on 300 (like at the CPS building.)

On the south IIRC the only camera was at the IP Plant at US 421 and CR 100 at the access to CR 625 and that camera took intermittent shots.

 

[carbuff]

Of the many things I want to know about this case, one of the biggest is why they were able to rule DN out so quickly, practically on sight. Is there something about the killer's appearance that they can instantly identify?

 

[r3d-ros3]

Of the many things I want to know about this case, one of the biggest is why they were able to rule DN out so quickly, practically on sight. Is there something about the killer's appearance that they can instantly identify?

DN does look a lot like the first composite sketch of BG, and he was living 2 hours away from Delphi at the time of the murders. According to LE (as reported by MSM), he didn't have transportation to Delphi and, likely, had an alibi for the day of the murders once we was seized in Colorado.

 

[carbuff]

DN does look a lot like the first composite sketch of BG, and he was living 2 hours away from Delphi at the time of the murders. According to LE (as reported by MSM), he didn't have transportation to Delphi and, likely, had an alibi for the day of the murders once we was seized in Colorado.

Yeah, his wife's doctor's appointment. Maybe it's true. I have my doubts. But that was all known to LE before they went to Colorado.

I did a bunch of research on his background, where he used to live, what his criminal record was. It's probably still back in whatever threads were active then. In ways he's more scary than JBC.

 

[IQuestion]

Your post made me think back to other times LE has looked at someone in regards to Delphi: DN, PE, JBC, etc. None of these people were ever officially named a POI, but in some cases, investigators traveled to other states or requested autopsy results as part of their investigation.

So, in what we know about these three men, specifically, is there a common theme? The weapons of choice don't necessarily match, and neither do the victim demographics. They all committed violent acts on others, but since we don't know a whole lot about the Delphi CS, it's hard to know what, if any, other commonalities between those men gave LE cause to look at them. It's just curious to me. Was LE truly looking at them, seriously, or just doing due diligence and the media/public made too much out of it?

TL4S Excellent summary of what occurred early on in the investigation...ie "all the usual suspects" first to be contacted and alibis checked. (Makes perfect sense to me, look at RSO's first.) Perhaps investigative bias, or the perp willing to cooperate early on made him appear transparent and truthful. Coincidentally after 2 years, the FBI alerted ISP to another investigation in which A_Shots turned up. (The coincidence gremlin strikes again.) Then the April 2019 press conference. THE NEW YOUNGER SKETCH!! (A_S persona?) "We believe the killer is between the ages of 18 and 40." "Directly to the killer who may be in this room." (The killer was in Delphi the day of the conference, but backed out of going into the room? Or LE had a tracking device on a vehicle headed to Delphi that day?) "We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years you never thought we would shift gears to a new investigative strategy but we have. (Shift gears? Shift gears! Interesting choice of words! I missed it the first 5 times I listened to the press conference. Is ISPCarter sending a message to someone interested in cars?) We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. (Yep!) We know this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know. One day you will." (I'm guessing KAK did find out what ISP knew when Det. V began laying out the Cellbrite evidence. KAK was a pretty cool cucumber at the beginning and started to get really agitated by page 55.)
"The question to you is, what will those closest to you think when they find out you murdered two little girls?" (KAK was unusually concerned IMO what all his friends thought of him. KAK also mentioned he performed marriage ceremonies. I think that would be horrible news for the couples who used him as an "ordained minister.")
"We are confident that you have told someone what you have done or at the very least they know because how different you are since the murders." (Excessive/sudden weight gain stands out as different.)
From 3:10 to 5:30 of this 10:20 video, is the focus of my posting thoughts

ps. I had my doubts about RL until the new younger sketch and 18 to 40 age adjustment. No way RL had looked 40 for at least 20 years, just sayin'.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

No, I don't think they were abducted just to be murdered. I think they were abducted for the reasons most girls are abducted. Murder comes after.

I don't think the day played out according to plan.

JMO

That's not the part that's unrealistic. There is nothing to support a suspect tied to KAK, let alone wanting to deliver a victim to him.

In kidnapping/murders, murder doesn't come after, it is a big part of it. Kidnap, do stuff while murdering, murder, do more stuff. The arousal etc. is wired to the violence.

 

[carbuff]

That's not the part that's unrealistic. There is nothing to support a suspect tied to KAK, let alone wanting to deliver a victim to him.

In kidnapping/murders, murder doesn't come after, it is a big part of it. Kidnap, do stuff while murdering, murder, do more stuff. The arousal etc. is wired to the violence.

It's not the only way it happens, though. Many serial rapists never murder anybody--it's entirely possible that it was planned to be a double rape that got out of hand when the girls fought back. I don't think it's the most likely explanation, but from what we know, there's nothing to rule it out, either.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

It's not the only way it happens, though. Many serial rapists never murder anybody--it's entirely possible that it was planned to be a double rape that got out of hand when the girls fought back. I don't think it's the most likely explanation, but from what we know, there's nothing to rule it out, either.

No, it's not, but it is the way it happened in this case. This was a sexually motivated murder, even without evidence of the traditional sexual assault, which we don't know for a fact. The killer took clothing and left something there, and there was posing. There is much prior discussion about these elements on this thread.
This was not a rapist who killed to avoid having a witness that would identify him later.
Many rapists don't kidnap (and release their victims). They find/stalk victims in many places and don't move them to another location. Serial rapists often escalate into serial killers. We all know the most likely outcome when a victim is kidnapped by a rapist. Thus the most important thing anyone can be taught for personal safety. Never let them take you anywhere.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

<modsnip: No link to image>

Of the many things I want to know about this case, one of the biggest is why they were able to rule DN out so quickly, practically on sight. Is there something about the killer's appearance that they can instantly identify?

There were other factors that eliminated DN as a Delphi suspect, but speaking to his appearance, upon seeing the photo of BG, DN was repulsed at the thought that he could be mistaken for that "fat slob".

 

[FromGermany1]

There must have been a vehicle there somewhere, since the perpetrator got himself there and away.

I wonder if he parked and escaped completely unnoticed.

Maybe KAK is being coy with us, about not meeting up with Libby, because she didn't show up.

Maybe he knew what the plan was, that a certain somebody was going to corral and control the girls, march them to his vehicle and then to a preselected second location, two girls, one for himself and one for KAK, a sick little gift, kind of like the escorts in LV, only 100,000 times more twisted.

So KAK maybe meant what he said. Sardonic. Libby never showed up. At the second location. Leaving out the part that it wasn't going to be nice meet up.

JMO

I can't imagine, someone (if not TK) would trust KAK enough to have such an agreement with him. IMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Plus, IMO it's important to consider that what occurred that day wasn't what was planned. It's entirely possible IMO that abduction was the first goal -- and that the girls themselves prevented their attacker from leaving the area, taking them to The Secondary Location.

Anger, thwarted and reactionary, he unleashed his rage sooner than intended.

This could have been a whole different kind of double missing persons case if he'd successfully abducted them, especially if nothing of the girls was left behind.

He could have held them captive for an hour, a day, a month -- before disposing of them where no one would be looking.

My point, perhaps he thought he could terrify, control and march them right into a waiting vehicle and disappear them within minutes.

JMO

If the killer is the same one from Iowa (2 little cousins, L/L, 2012), his experience showed him, the Delphi mission could have been as "successful" as that abduction and murder back then. Even leaving behind some evidence (like a shoe or like bikes and purse in Iowa) at crime scene #1 would only have had a harmless effect re the investigation. If the killer was going for media headlines, then leaving some evidence would have been a perfect measure.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Of the many things I want to know about this case, one of the biggest is why they were able to rule DN out so quickly, practically on sight. Is there something about the killer's appearance that they can instantly identify?

The other photo was better but I lost the link, so there is this. He is dressed up for court, but you get a good idea of his build.

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/gazette.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/cd/3cd9bcca-a104-11e8-8350-4be926cd785a/5b74ef04bcb65.image.jpg?resize=990%2C660

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

If the killer is the same one from Iowa (2 little cousins, L/L, 2012), his experience showed him, the Delphi mission could have been as "successful" as that abduction and murder back then.

The Evansdale murders, a lot, not some, of people are convinced it's likely the same killer.

 

[FromGermany1]

The other photo was better but I lost the link, so there is this. He is dressed up for court, but you get a good idea of his build.

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/gazette.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/cd/3cd9bcca-a104-11e8-8350-4be926cd785a/5b74ef04bcb65.image.jpg?resize=990%2C660

View attachment 361031

Where is his reddish accent (hair, beard, eye brows)?? All dyed over for a certain purpose?

 

[minazoe]

Of the many things I want to know about this case, one of the biggest is why they were able to rule DN out so quickly, practically on sight. Is there something about the killer's appearance that they can instantly identify?

I bet it's his feet

 

[Trebor5591]

"we don't know what kind of weapon was used."? Geez, hopefully I will never know the details before LE has released them. Only the killer would know what weapon was used and so would the person he shared the info with.
Det. V brought up more than once in the interview, several pages apart. If DetV felt it important enough to ask, I'm asking myself, "Why?" That is a fact and I'm not going to search any more pages today as I start getting frustrated reading his non-responsive diversions. (Insert frustrating emoji, lol.)

I remember a few threads back we were discussing the search warrent for Ron Logan. It disclosed there was so much blood at the murder scene that the murderer would have had blood all over them. Then there was a reference to a <redacted> weapon. We put two and two together and came up with a blade weapon was used to kill the girls, i.e. a knife. So I feel that we now know how they were murdered--with a knife.

FBI search warrant obtained by podcast reveals possible details about killer of two girls in Delphi, Indiana

An FBI search warrant obtained by the "Murder Sheet" podcast said the bodies of Abby Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, lost a lot of blood.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Trebor5591]

Thinking way outside the box here and along the lines of the rumored F at the scene - do we know what kind of trees were in the immediate area where the girls were found?

"the rumored F"??

What is that?

 

[Trebor5591]

Sorry, changing subjects a little... thinking back when LE said that looking at all the simulations seen online and on youtube...that nobody so far, had gotten what happened right... and we should all just ignore all of those false representations. To me that says there was something unexpected in either where they went down the hill or something else MAJOR that everybody was getting wrong.

Here's a wild guess: BG did not approach and move the girls from the south end of the bridge. Yes, Libby did film him there at first... but that was only video and that what actually happened is he went back to the north side of the bridge and hid. Eventually, the girls thinking they were sort of vulnerable on the bridge itself and maybe thought BG might come back across and this time push them off the bridge, the girls then scurried back to the north side only to find BG there.

She activates the video/audio in her back pocket a second time when they see him again unexpectedly. He then pulled his gun and ordered them "down the hill" there on the north side of the bridge. When he took them down to that isolated location, he killed them there and maybe threw her shoe then over the creek to the other side to throw people off.

Again, not that I really believe all this...just trying to think out of the box. All this also because I still find it hard to believe a man could manhandle 2 girls across a flowing creek and up a hill of a muddy slippery bank without one or more of them getting away. I've always had a problem with the 3 of them crossing the creek and one alternate scenario to avoid that notion would be a scenario where they never crossed the creek at all. This crazy thought would satisfy both the "down the hill" audio as well as the notion that all simulations missed the mark.

That's my 2 cents worth for the day... what are the flaws/errors in facts that make this crazy idea wrong itself?

The scenerio I believed happened was that the girls ran from him, ran despertly across the creek and up the muddy bank with him in close pursuit to where he caught them and murdered them.