Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[Tippy Lynn]

If you remember back to the April 2019 news conference LE "inadvertently" left the shot of their investigation desk screen visible on the big screen. The statement to the killer "you want to know what we know" may be answered in a small way with that shot. This to me would show that what is being discussed this morning has some weight. JMHO

Or perhaps they are just blithering along and not paying attention to details like leaving their monitor visible for the public to see.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I've been all over the place in this case and I haven't landed on a solid spot yet. I'm keeping an open mind to other users of the dropbox and phones. I don't think KAK murdered the girls and I don't think he's emilyanne. Based on MS, I'll consider that TK is involved in the CSAM but am not certain about any involvement in the murders. With that said about TK, I have found no criminal cases in the court records on him since 2010. On it's face, it would seem that he learned his lessons and stayed out of trouble since.

Without the MS episodes, I would be thinking that KAK was the sole 'owner' of the CSAM stuff.

Going way back, some of our posters thought it odd that the nation-wide billboards had large pics of the girls and only a small image of BG. One would wonder if LE was fishing for leads from anyone who might have seen their pics online. Do we have a date handy for when the billboards went up?

KAK admitted to being Emily Lane in the transcripts of his interrogation. He also admitted, when asked, that he set up a female profile in order to gain young girls' trust.

 

[FrostedGlass]

KAK admitted to being Emily Lane in the transcripts of his interrogation. He also admitted, when asked, that he set up a female profile in order to gain young girls' trust.

Yes, in part. I believe he made it for that use but I'm keeping an open mind that it was for someone else.

For anyone:
Who is "Adam" on pg 68, line 10 of the interrogation?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I've been all over the place in this case and I haven't landed on a solid spot yet. I'm keeping an open mind to other users of the dropbox and phones. I don't think KAK murdered the girls and I don't think he's emilyanne. Based on MS, I'll consider that TK is involved in the CSAM but am not certain about any involvement in the murders. With that said about TK, I have found no criminal cases in the court records on him since 2010. On it's face, it would seem that he learned his lessons and stayed out of trouble since.

Without the MS episodes, I would be thinking that KAK was the sole 'owner' of the CSAM stuff.

Going way back, some of our posters thought it odd that the nation-wide billboards had large pics of the girls and only a small image of BG. One would wonder if LE was fishing for leads from anyone who might have seen their pics online. Do we have a date handy for when the billboards went up?

That is a very interesting thought about those billboards having prominent pictures of the girls as opposed to BG who LE was supposed to looking for. We all certainly talked about it at the time and thought it was odd.
We know now that LE knew early on there was an internet element…despite what they were telling us…so, as you suggest, maybe those billboards were hoping someone recognized the girls, realize they had been killed, and would then call with information.
I think it’s interesting, though it apparently didn’t work.

 

[Peppery]

That is a very interesting thought about those billboards having prominent pictures of the girls as opposed to BG who LE was supposed to looking for. We all certainly talked about it at the time and thought it was odd.
We know now that LE knew early on there was an internet element…despite what they were telling us…so, as you suggest, maybe those billboards were hoping someone recognized the girls, realize they had been killed, and would then call with information.
I think it’s interesting, though it apparently didn’t work.

I remember having that thought too. From memory I think the billboards went up around the end of February. We discussed at length their locations because there were all over the US.

 

[Peppery]

Article from 2/22/17 re billboards. Photos of A&L are larger than BG

6,000 billboards in 46 states plead for information in Delphi girls' murders

The call for help in the investigation into a Delphi double murder has reached Indianapolis streets.

www.wthr.com

 

[IQuestion]

Has anyone mentioned info on new MS podcast with the "Prosecutors."??
Hope this link works..

Google Podcasts

With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free.

podcasts.google.com

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Has anyone mentioned info on new MS podcast with the "Prosecutors."??
Hope this link works..

Google Podcasts

With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free.

podcasts.google.com

I listened to that episode. I didn’t get much from it except they felt KAK was a dime a dozen CSAM perpetrator, nothing special, as opposed to the kingpin of the largest CSAM investigation in Indiana history.

 

[Jade]

Billboard companies donate space for Public Service announcements [PSAs] considering it a social responsibility. It is encouraged by Outdoor Advertising Association.

Lamar Advertising | Community Support

Lamar Advertising put up those billboards with BG and the girls in my community way down South.

They have offices across the country and all of them, presumably, used the same template to carry out the PSAs.

Lamar Advertising | Office Locations

Having worked with a billboard company on donated PSAs for a nonprofit there are limitations to the depiction. The picture of BG is blurry at size so blown up more might not have worked at all.

I think it is a well-intended company wide effort to bring attention to the crime with about all they had to work with which were pictures of two beautiful, sweet, loved girls.

All imo

 

[AC4RD]

I don't know what evidence led ISP to the Dec. 2021 a_shots ask, but I don't think it was a baseless guess or last ditch effort. ...
It's possible a_shots has nothing to do with the murders, and it's also possible LE does not have a clue who committed those murders. Based on the fraction of evidence we, as the public, know about this case, of course we should consider those possibilities.

But LE does know all the evidence, and they seem to think a_shots is significant enough to warrant asking for tips ...

(snipped a bit)
So very true, TL4S! And it's something I have to remind myself of often: LE knows a LOT about the murders, and the general public (me) doesn't. And at least some of what I speculate and wonder and read about, wondering about some point, is certainly data that is already clearly known to the people inside the investigation. Like "a_s" being involved in the murders--LE has information (supporting or disproving) that we don't know, so we can't really judge whether they are wasting time on the catfishing issue, or whether it's a central issue.

And it isn't just the catfishing! There are so many questions that bear on the progress of the investigation, on which we know almost nothing--questions LE may know the answers to. Like:

Were L&A seen by others on the trails that day? In other visitors' photos? Who really did see BG, and what did they say about him? Does HE show up in any photos? What have witnesses said about the actions of KAK (and TK if you will) from that day? What was that "girl talk" from L&A, was any of it about BG? Or other people on the trails that day? Why was Libby recording the "girl talk" in the first place? Did Libby & Abby talk to any of their friends (phone, SM) from the trail or bridge? Has LE found evidence of BG’s post-murder escape route? Was evidence recovered there? Has BG communicated with LE since the murders? Has anyone *claiming* to be BG communicated with LE? Did anybody at the scene report seeing BG on the trails on any days before or after 2/13? Did anybody other than FSG actually see “the couple?” Were the couple recognized by anybody? Were they arguing, talking, what? Does LE know who they are? Did bG know that LG had a phone? Was it really KAK doing the trolling for little girls online, or was it some other person using his account? Did "a_s" invite any other girls to meet him somewhere? Why was the “Guys” audio not released at the same time as “down the hill?” In the first audio (you can hear it at the press conference) one can hear "(Go) down the hill"--why was the "go" removed when the "guys" was included? Is there evidence that BG was involved in any other crimes?

All these questions, which are unknowns to me, may be known to LE. What direction(s) the investigation takes, and how much progress has been made in identifying and prosecuting the murderer(s)--I can't judge that because I don't know the answers to any of those. And LE certainly knows the answers to at least some of those, maybe most, maybe almost all. I just have to assume that, behind the scenes, they're making progress. Good luck to them!

 

[JnRyan]

Has anyone mentioned info on new MS podcast with the "Prosecutors."??
Hope this link works..

Google Podcasts

With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free.

podcasts.google.com

Interesting podcast. My takeaway was what is currently being speculated on with KAK and the search and other matters related to it needs to be viewed from more than one angle. One item one of the two prosecutors thought was unusual was the unsealing of the documents so soon after being sealed. He seemed to at a loss, from his experience as a prosecutor, as to why that occurred so quickly. They apparently ruled out any state law that may have required it.

They did point out that KAK is not out of the ordinary with regard to these types of offenders and, in fact, there are many others that are worse that are arrested and in prison. I thought it was interesting that he stated they usually catch the dumb ones, while the true masterminds avoid capture. He basically inferred that these dumb ones are an open book to LE and there is very little that is hidden from LE. While not applying that to KAK, it makes me wonder if what LE sees is all there really is with respect to KAK. Of course, that doesn't mean KAK's case does not get LE to the killer. Someone, outside of KAK/TK or anyone else those two know, could have gotten access to the drop box. One of the prosecutors stated that while these offenders run together, in order to access to the group you have to contribute CSAM material. IOW, it is very likely that anyone with KNOWN access to that data likely contributed as well.

Of course, could someone have hacked in or, most likely, one of those with access to the dropbox provided it to someone else and there is no direct or obvious link. That 'authorized user' may well have made the connection, using the video, audio and one of the sketches to the killer and the person they provided access. That person's dilemma, even if they have a 'just a little bit of a conscience', is the chance of being arrested when they contact LE. And, IF KAK is the key to this, that person may be that one tip LE needs. That person just needs added incentive. Like an arrest.

 

[JnRyan]

I don't know what evidence led ISP to the Dec. 2021 a_shots ask, but I don't think it was a baseless guess or last ditch effort. Regardless of what else we know, the family confirms L was in contact with an online profile named a_shots, the same profile ISP is now asking about. A profile we know was fake and catfishing for young girls, per the Peru house search affidavit.

It's possible a_shots has nothing to do with the murders, and it's also possible LE does not have a clue who committed those murders. Based on the fraction of evidence we, as the public, know about this case, of course we should consider those possibilities.

But LE does know all the evidence, and they seem to think a_shots is significant enough to warrant asking for tips on. Forget KAK's BS and the interview, forget MS podcast, forget the "leaked" anything. What we have is a Feb. 25, 2017 search affidavit for the Peru house, which included subpoenas from SC and other SM platforms for IP addresses on a_shots, which led to the Peru house and KAK's devices. We have evidence on that affidavit of catfishing. We have 30 CSAM-related charges for KAK. We have L communicating with the account associated with this, then being murdered. Finally, we have the a_shots ask requesting tips to the A & L tip line.

I don't know...in my own eyes it appears LE must have something tying these things together.

I'm struggling with that myself. What item or items does LE have that lead them to believe they have to reach out to the public? They just didn't select this case by accident.

Do they have more than one communication between KAK and Liberty? And, if so, what was said? From Liberty's phone does LE have a communication or communications with others that indicate a mutual connection to anthony_shots? I doubt LE has any sort of communication with KAK on her phone with regard to a meeting, but that doesn't there isn't anything else.

Of course, given that there is probably a LOT of electronic information on KAK's device, LE may have reached dead ends or can't ID some of the persons. It is possible the investigators may have said to their superiors, "The only we have with any possibility of a face-to-face connection to the girls is this guy's iffy statement about a meeting that we can't corroborate with anything or anyone." And, who knows, those superiors say to reach out to the public - a long shot, but given other stumbles in this case, why not. After all, this is the same organization involved with those two radically different sketches and a 'New Direction'.

I was watching a case on TV where LE believed that exhuming a body would give them answers. The exhumation was told to the press and covered by news crews in the cemetery. Later LE announces they gleaned 'significant' information from the examination of the body. Years later after the arrest and conviction, the lead investigator is asked what that undisclosed information was that they didn't give the details on to the public. The investigator said it was, after believing they would find something, that they didn't learn anything at all. But he said the killer did not know that.

LE could have quite a bit of info leading them from KAK to the killer. OR they could have nothing more than a last communication and some uncorroborated statement about a meeting. OR somewhere in between. What would be worse - suspecting a connection and not reaching out OR taking a long shot with asking for tips on something that doesn't really connect to the murders? It appears they have already taken what turned out to be dead ends before with the sketch or RL as a suspect.

 

[Schatz]

I spent the last two weeks deep diving a family history mystery and only catching the news (it’s local news here) and the MS episode. This thread is 30 pages in already, and I may never catch up! Can someone do a quick synopsis of the discussion I’ve missed?

 

[Schatz]

so if these teams are really LE ..only if
what can they be looking for ? cant be a sock or clothes items? digital evidence of the murder ? very far fetched
which in our case .. leaves one thing only...weapons

I’d wager it’s some sort of homemade knife. But I’m very narrow minded and fixated on JBC.

 

[Schatz]

JMO.
I have followed this case from the beginning. I hesitate to post here, as I only heard it once the day after the girls were found and it was local media, but I do not have link, nor can I verify the source. I do not nor have I ever had FB or any social media for that matter, so my only source would be news, either televised or read in a paper. In the very beginning there was reference to something at the scene that leaves no other option than it to have been a sexually motivated crime.
I have seen it referenced here a couple of times over the years, and I'll leave it at that. I don't think KAK or TK are BG. I don't think, BG is any of the known POI's either. I do believe KAG was sharing information with similar types, and thus, even the A_Shots acct. I'm not so sure he was the business man some would believe, but rather just sick and trading and gathering material, with likeminded persons. For this reason, I believe KAK is linked to the crime, along with the A_Shots account. I am not sure he knew the perp in the real world. Possibly only online. This crime, what little we know about it, leads one in one sense to lean, to a personal connection as staging often suggest, hands folded, etc. where as the other was much more severe yet less or differently posed. A familiarity can be formed in short order, even by stalking. When they say a familiarity, it is directional. The victim does not necessarily know the perp, but the perp knows the victim. Sometimes from a far. So, more of an opportunistic act. My opinion is this is because he was not expecting one of the girls to be there and so his personal connection was acted out towards one and the other was collateral damage. The Marathon could have simply been a marker for directions for the perp. I try to steer clear of what I can not verify, but the one thing from the beginning has stuck with me. I have tried desperately to find it in the latter years, but could not. I think, because of the grotesque nature of the act, it quit simply was asked of whom ever reported on it to simply not reference it again. Also it would be one of those things LE will use to verify the killer if ever there is a confession.

There is another piece I had gone hunting for and couldn’t find. I know I had read it, I’m sure it’s been discussed, but I wanted to provide the link and just couldn’t find it. I feel like some bits of information were scrubbed, probably an ask by LE of local news. I wish I could remember what it was!

 

[Falling Down]

So lets just say that a_shots' communications with L, which BP and KG have both confirmed did indeed happen, were coincidental and unrelated to the murders. And let's say LE lied about everything in the 2020 interview with KAK. Let's also say that all of KAK's device searches after the murders, the Samsung wiping before turning in to LE, and other such suspicious activities that KAK fully admits to and which were included in the 2017 Peru house search affidavit, are also meaningless to this case.

Then why would the ISP put out the a_shots ask at all, only days before KAK's original hearing date, with tips going to the A & L tip line? Why do that? Because KAK fooled them? Because LE is stupid or corrupt? Because the real killer is a random SK or otherwise unknown to LE and they just want to pin it on somebody? It doesn't make any sense.

I'm completely open to the idea that somebody else had access to the a_shots account or that L's personal data was shared with a third party. Maybe KAK had a role in that, or maybe not, IDK. But IMO, LE put that a_shots ask out there for a reason. After five years of basically nothing besides a couple of sketches and the bridge recording, this LE team does not seem likely to put out a name, fictitious or not, unless it had some kind of significance to the case. That's JMO.

That is precisely what I thought early on, a third or ? party somehow got a hold of information the girls would be at the MHB, via SM or maybe a text message, most likely the former. In light of more recent events, perhaps someone unkown to even KK and his CSAM buddies was privy to that info.

Or maybe there is a connection here with the Marathon gas station?

Could it be other electronic devices were disposed of by KK, and he came clean and that explains the current search? I bring up KK because most likely some or maybe most of the folks he was sharing CSAM with he didn't know by name.

Or, another theory of mine, the info about the girls being at the bridge was passed on word-of-mouth?

JMO

 

[Schatz]

absolutely ...nothing so far have changed anything about how ive always viewed the case.. that its a random dangerous potential SK and a lone wolf who have outsmarted everyone so far..ill be glad to be proven wrong but ive never been so sure about a case before
time will tell

I allowed myself to entertain this idea, and still do at times. I started looking at unsolved homicides all over, wondering if perhaps there is some truly evil genius out there who is able to travel and blend in (and not because he’s dealing with local meth charges or anything). Maybe someone who knew more about DNA than your average Joe, earlier on, and is truly a psychopathic sadist. I found an interesting unsolved case in IN a from a few decades ago. I will have to see if she has a thread here. Every once in awhile I think we’re not focused broadly enough, generally speaking. It could be that the complexity of this case is because the perp is an as yet unnamed individual who does not travel in these circles but used the dark web enough to know where to find a marketplace.

 

[TL4S]

The prosecutors on the latest MS episode mentioned how it wouldn't be unusual for LE to wait to arrest someone on charges if they think that person might be involved with something bigger, especially if LE can safely monitor them. This has been discussed here before, and while we don't know that's for certain why it took 3 years to arrest KAK on his CSAM charges, there is one clue (IMO) that might point to him being monitored (as in watched...not working with LE). His most recent charge (first and only charge after 2/2017) was on 5/14/2020, only a few months before he was arrested. I had wondered if that was from KAK trying to share CSAM to an undercover officer or something, but whatever it was, it is chronologically curious to me. It also happens to be one day after he posted his backdated 2/12/17 job in Vegas BS on FB.

 

[Falling Down]

The prosecutors on the latest MS episode mentioned how it wouldn't be unusual for LE to wait to arrest someone on charges if they think that person might be involved with something bigger, especially if LE can safely monitor them. This has been discussed here before, and while we don't know that's for certain why it took 3 years to arrest KAK on his CSAM charges, there is one clue (IMO) that might point to him being monitored (as in watched...not working with LE). His most recent charge (first and only charge after 2/2017) was on 5/14/2020, only a few months before he was arrested. I had wondered if that was from KAK trying to share CSAM to an undercover officer or something, but whatever it was, it is chronologically curious to me. It also happens to be one day after he posted his backdated 2/12/17 job in Vegas BS on FB.

Explains the delay, I'd wondered similarly.

Great post.

 

[JnRyan]

I allowed myself to entertain this idea, and still do at times. I started looking at unsolved homicides all over, wondering if perhaps there is some truly evil genius out there who is able to travel and blend in (and not because he’s dealing with local meth charges or anything). Maybe someone who knew more about DNA than your average Joe, earlier on, and is truly a psychopathic sadist. I found an interesting unsolved case in IN a from a few decades ago. I will have to see if she has a thread here. Every once in awhile I think we’re not focused broadly enough, generally speaking. It could be that the complexity of this case is because the perp is an as yet unnamed individual who does not travel in these circles but used the dark web enough to know where to find a marketplace.

Good point. This is an extreme example, but look at Samuel Little. He committed rapes and murders - PROBABLY 93 - over three decades and no one was making the connection.

Samuel Little - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One of Little's favorite reading materials was true crime magazines. Nowadays criminals have a better source, the internet.

Just because this killer hasn't been connected to other crimes doesn't mean there aren't others. He could have had something else in mind here, it went sideways on him and doesn't resemble previous crimes. He could have sat back afterwards and looked at his mistakes and future murders don't look like this one. If LE even hasn't made a connection doesn't mean there isn't any. To add to that if LE is using ViCAP (Violent Criminal Aprehension Program) to look for other crimes that is a problem. The last I looked about 10 years ago out of 18000 city, county and state LE agencies only about 1400 entered violent crimes into ViCAP. If this killer is not currently local and is committing crimes in places like Backwoods Arkansas or Podunk Nebraska chances are high ViCAP has no visibility on it.

I believe the chances are high this killer is somewhere with 1-2 hours of Delphi and has some past connection to the area. But there is also the possibility this guy could be in Kansas City scoping out Swope Park or in Columbus OH stalking Alum Creek Trail.