Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I’m listening to A&L podcasts.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just to clarify, circumstantial evidence is pretty much everything but eyewitness testimony. DNA, fingerprints, gun shot residue, incriminating statements, etc., are all circumstantial evidence, which just means evidence that needs some form of interpretation. For example, finding the DNA of a person inside the orifice of a deceased person doesn’t prove that the owner of that DNA killed the deceased person. But the circumstances - unrelated male, dead body found after having been disposed of, etc. - point indirectly to that unrelated male’s guilt. Most guilty verdicts, in absence of a confession, or witness who saw the killing, are rendered due to circumstantial evidence.

In any event, I think when people use the term “circumstantial evidence”, they tend to mean not physical evidence. Such evidence is not just used, it carries no different weight than direct evidence.

Gitana!

I want to thank you for sharing your expertise.
It is important to know and to try to understand what this term means.
I was under the impression that it pertains to anything not recorded on camera /video, DNA on a weapon or body or an eyewitness account.
Getting these morsels of information are appreciated and valued!

EBM ...spelling (of course!)

 

[Arkay]

how is kak disguised as a persona making a claim on SM is evidence in the first place ?
anyone can claim anything on sm ...
where is the actual proving of the supposed claim happening..
q: have you made a claim on sm that you were supposed to meet libby that day ?
a: i lied like i did about everything

...
this is where it ends

Logically, that wouldn’t be where it ends. If KAK is lying about everything, how are we to know that he isn’t lying again? Why would this one statement be true, that he lied about plans to meet Libby, but all his other statements are false?

If he’s a manipulative troll, why give credence to this one statement and declare that it ends there, when as you know he continually lies?

One never knows with a pathological liar. I believe that LE has the evidence of how he conversed with the girls.

Whether or not he is the killer, LE would know if he was supposed to meet Libby that day.

IMO

 

[sandy_80]

Logically, that wouldn’t be where it ends. If KAK is lying about everything, how are we to know that he isn’t lying again? Why would this one statement be true, that he lied about plans to meet Libby, but all his other statements are false?

If he’s a manipulative troll, why give credence to this one statement and declare that it ends there, when as you know he continually lies?

One never knows with a pathological liar. I believe that LE has the evidence of how he conversed with the girls.

Whether or not he is the killer, LE would know if he was supposed to meet Libby that day.

IMO

they clearly dont have that EVIDENCE >>.cause they didnt show it and face him with it !! what do you think they were waiting for ?

 

[sandy_80]

someone brought a very important point
that if this was indeed a criminal search ..then le wouldnt leave the search site unguarded/ unattended so that any one can mess with it ! how would they kno if someone wouldnt come and plant something there ?
we didnt think of this

 

[TL4S]

someone brought a very important point
that if this was indeed a criminal search ..then le wouldnt leave the search site unguarded/ unattended so that any one can mess with it ! how would they kno if someone wouldnt come and plant something there ?
we didnt think of this

I wonder if they are monitoring the area even when the searches aren't going on, via surveillance camera or something like that. Capturing somebody pulling something out of the water at night would be pretty suspicious, and something planted would have to convincingly look like it had been submerged for however long LE suspects the thing they are looking for was submerged.

There's really nothing beyond the coincidental timing of KAK's release to ISP, and the public's suspicion, to say this search is about Delphi, or even the CSAM case, but I hope LE finds whatever they are looking for.

 

[TL4S]

I went back to see what was in the media in the days immediately after the murders, and more specifically, what new details came out during the time KAK and TK were in Vegas.

*Feb. 15: Photo of BG was released, but it was not disclosed yet that it came from L's phone.
*Feb. 19: Man in photo was officially named a suspect.
*Feb. 20: Ski mask incident (if true, no known reports on this publicly, iirc)
*Feb. 21: Vegas trip begins, with KAK bringing an extra bag along because he was "f'ed" and was going to flee after they got home, after his dad went to sleep.
*Feb. 22: Audio is released and it is announced that the audio and photo came from L's phone
Police release audio of suspect in Indiana girls' deaths
"One of two things happened. It was chance encounter — that's possible. Don't think it's likely, but it's possible," Bursten said. "Or that person knew that they were going to be there. That's possible as well."
*Feb. 22 through Feb. 24: KAK is following the Delphi case and begins searching if IP addresses can be traced, among other things.
*Feb. 25: Return from Vegas and Peru house search warrant executed.

In the 2020 interview, LE asks KAK why he was looking up IP address stuff. Bear in mind, he looked this up right as LE was releasing that the photo/audio came from L's phone. I know many people think LE was lying about a lot of stuff in that interview, but KAK does not at all deny he searched this information, although he does deny remembering ever communicating with L. Instead, he says it was because he had been talking to L's friend and he thought that would look suspicious. Why would him communicating with L's friend online (even if catfishing) make him look suspicious in L's death if he'd never even talked to L? And I'd still like to know how he knew so early on that the girl he was communicating with was friends with L if he'd never communicated with L, and that's if I dismiss the whole a_shots "I was supposed to meet that girl" and other such communications LE claims happened...but anyway...

Just random curiosities, imo. For someone who didn't remember ever communicating with L, he seemed pretty convinced he was "f'ed" before the Vegas trip, when all that was out was a grainy photo of unknown source and no phone, SM, or CSAM connections mentioned.

​

 

[FrostedGlass]

@TL4S That Vegas trip...was that the one where he and his buddy were sharing living arrangements? If that's the case, does that explain any of his questionable answers?

 

[TL4S]

@TL4S That Vegas trip...was that the one where he and his buddy were sharing living arrangements? If that's the case, does that explain any of his questionable answers?

No, this was the Vegas trip he and his dad took, sharing a hotel room, supposedly meeting one of TK's buddies there, and KAK planning a weed transaction, along with he and his dad looking into going to the Bunny Ranch and paying for prostitutes. Also, he time traveled and found the Samsung 5 in a rental car, even though he claims he was using that same phone 10 days earlier to log in and out of a_shots with a second phone the morning of 2/13. This trip was from 2/21 to 2/25/17. I believe he lived with his friend a bit in Vegas later that year, if that's true.

ETA: I might have lost my patience with KAK today...

 

[raja]

I went back to see what was in the media in the days immediately after the murders, and more specifically, what new details came out during the time KAK and TK were in Vegas.

*Feb. 15: Photo of BG was released, but it was not disclosed yet that it came from L's phone.
*Feb. 19: Man in photo was officially named a suspect.
*Feb. 20: Ski mask incident (if true, no known reports on this publicly, iirc)
*Feb. 21: Vegas trip begins, with KAK bringing an extra bag along because he was "f'ed" and was going to flee after they got home, after his dad went to sleep.
*Feb. 22: Audio is released and it is announced that the audio and photo came from L's phone
Police release audio of suspect in Indiana girls' deaths
"One of two things happened. It was chance encounter — that's possible. Don't think it's likely, but it's possible," Bursten said. "Or that person knew that they were going to be there. That's possible as well."
*Feb. 22 through Feb. 24: KAK is following the Delphi case and begins searching if IP addresses can be traced, among other things.
*Feb. 25: Return from Vegas and Peru house search warrant executed.

In the 2020 interview, LE asks KAK why he was looking up IP address stuff. Bear in mind, he looked this up right as LE was releasing that the photo/audio came from L's phone. I know many people think LE was lying about a lot of stuff in that interview, but KAK does not at all deny he searched this information, although he does deny remembering ever communicating with L. Instead, he says it was because he had been talking to L's friend and he thought that would look suspicious. Why would him communicating with L's friend online (even if catfishing) make him look suspicious in L's death if he'd never even talked to L? And I'd still like to know how he knew so early on that the girl he was communicating with was friends with L if he'd never communicated with L, and that's if I dismiss the whole a_shots "I was supposed to meet that girl" and other such communications LE claims happened...but anyway...

Just random curiosities, imo. For someone who didn't remember ever communicating with L, he seemed pretty convinced he was "f'ed" before the Vegas trip, when all that was out was a grainy photo of unknown source and no phone, SM, or CSAM connections mentioned.

​

Great post. Feb 21 KAK saying he was "f'ed" sounds more like he has intimate knowledge about the murders. I don't think anything would have come out of his mouth if he was the actual killer.

 

[FrostedGlass]

No, this was the Vegas trip he and his dad took, sharing a hotel room, supposedly meeting one of TK's buddies there, and KAK planning a weed transaction, along with he and his dad looking into going to the Bunny Ranch and paying for prostitutes. Also, he time traveled and found the Samsung 5 in a rental car, even though he claims he was using that same phone 10 days earlier to log in and out of a_shots with a second phone the morning of 2/13. This trip was from 2/21 to 2/25/17. I believe he lived with his friend a bit in Vegas later that year, if that's true.

ETA: I might have lost my patience with KAK today...

If we discount all the other noise we've heard and just believe KAK is alone in all this, it gets easier. Cracking up at your last sentence.

 

[Falcon500]

someone brought a very important point
that if this was indeed a criminal search ..then le wouldnt leave the search site unguarded/ unattended so that any one can mess with it ! how would they kno if someone wouldnt come and plant something there ?
we didnt think of this

How do you know that the search site was left unguarded? There is plenty of room for an officer(s) to sit in a car on the river bank. As a rookie I was assigned to do that a few times. Once I was assigned to sit all night in the apartment of a murder vicTim. The instructions were “ don’t touch anything”. My shift mates thought it was funny to make prank calls to the phone all night.

 

[IQuestion]

No, this was the Vegas trip he and his dad took, sharing a hotel room, supposedly meeting one of TK's buddies there, and KAK planning a weed transaction, along with he and his dad looking into going to the Bunny Ranch and paying for prostitutes. Also, he time traveled and found the Samsung 5 in a rental car, even though he claims he was using that same phone 10 days earlier to log in and out of a_shots with a second phone the morning of 2/13. This trip was from 2/21 to 2/25/17. I believe he lived with his friend a bit in Vegas later that year, if that's true.

ETA: I might have lost my patience with KAK today...

TL4S, BBM above
I think you are brilliant the way you took "answers given" vs actual time lines and realized somethings just don't make sense when KAK moves his lips. He always provides a little truth (or something easy to accept) before he throws down the big lie (the bluff).
DING, Ding, ding....you nailed it....And finally called KAK's bluff. Good for you! The Samsung he "found" in a rental car in Vegas and his ability to use it 10 days before he supposedly found it.
BTW. I don't think KAK will be testifying against anybody. Any defense attorney would simply turn to his CSAM history and claim his testimony is self serving to avoid a 40 year sentence. But, and there is always the big but(t)...and this is it "IN MY OPINION" KAK has photographic/PHYSICAL evidence of another person with him (trophy item? "That one tiny little thing, hmmm)
And doubling down on BTW, I still hear KAK's voice "Guys, down the hill."

 

[sandy_80]

How do you know that the search site was left unguarded? There is plenty of room for an officer(s) to sit in a car on the river bank. As a rookie I was assigned to do that a few times. Once I was assigned to sit all night in the apartment of a murder vicTim. The instructions were “ don’t touch anything”. My shift mates thought it was funny to make prank calls to the phone all night.

we had videos of the search area posted regularly and ppl watching from the area
no one was left at the site ..its all weird anyway
how can recall a similar lengthy search that is done in secret on top of it ?
i dont

 

[raja]

we had videos of the search area posted regularly and ppl watching from the area
no one was left at the site ..its all weird anyway
how can recall a similar lengthy search that is done in secret on top of it ?
i dont

I don’t think we know that as fact and there is always video surveillance

 

[IQuestion]

How would two people communicate in a forested/rural area and not want to be tracked by cell phone? No GPS/ Cellbrite tracking, no bouncing off towers...Hmmmm
Just thinking out of the box and what ifs scenario: "You enter from RL's property." "I'll follow from the drop off point to bridge" "Pick you up on the back access road."
Can You Use Walkie Talkies While Hunting? A walkie talkie will be a great help, especially if you plan to hunt in a group. You can keep in touch ... etc,etc, etc.
Did you know walkie talkies are more durable than cell phones?

 

[stattlich1]

Just a comment relative to the search site being unmanned while the searchers are not present.

I have historic direct involvement in a case where a legit LE agency, appearing to be linemen/workers of the official Electric Company of that region, complete with the official trucks, ladders, attire, etc. of said Electric Company, doing what appeared to be transmission wire/pole maintenance/work directly outside a known drug runnin' house so as to engage in various surveillance tactics.

When criminal investigations are underway, and I'm not sure this search is exactly that, but I am suspicious , but when these types of investigation are underway the methodologies used are many and varied.

 

[sunshineray]

The whole Carter/Delphi/KAK/TK bit leaves questions. Either it was an intentional leak by Carter or the source went behind his back. IMO. Because of that info, both KAK and TK have been dragged out to the max. Why would they throw that out there after the Big Media Blackout we've been living under?

It just feels off to me.

Maybe because what they really needed was more connections of anthony_shots account and other victims, more planned meet-ups with eye witnesses to who actually showed up "being" anthony_shots?

 

[sunshineray]

I saw an audio analysis of this once, and it sounded like-
Guys …(girl’s voice)… down the hill.
Implying the space between the words was meant to edit or cover up one of the girl’s voices, and she sounded distressed.
I don’t think I’m allowed to link this person’s YouTube, and I’m not suggesting his analysis is correct, but it is an interesting idea about why the long delay before releasing ‘Guys’. I mean it is very strange to wait all that time just to add one word.

Makes sense considering Abby's Mom Anna Williams listened to some of Libby's audio and told GH...

1 . Abby looks up at Libby, who is recording, and says "He's right behind me, isn't he?"


2. Abby hurries to where Libby is.


3. The girls are discussing which way to go. It appears they were talking about two ways to go but said it was hard to hear the audio.


4. Abby says "Is that a gun? He's got a gun."

5. BG says "Hey" (probably supposed to be "Guys")
Libby then says "Hmmm"

6. BG says "Down the hill" and then the sound of a gun cocking is heard


48 min mark, gun at 51:00 min mark

 

[Falling Down]

How would two people communicate in a forested/rural area and not want to be tracked by cell phone? No GPS/ Cellbrite tracking, no bouncing off towers...Hmmmm
Just thinking out of the box and what ifs scenario: "You enter from RL's property." "I'll follow from the drop off point to bridge" "Pick you up on the back access road."
Can You Use Walkie Talkies While Hunting? A walkie talkie will be a great help, especially if you plan to hunt in a group. You can keep in touch ... etc,etc, etc.
Did you know walkie talkies are more durable than cell phones?

I've used them with friends at large car shows in the past. Yes, they are reliable and have a good range. The ones I've used are analog, too, which is more relaible than digital (Sept. 11th proved this with the firefighters in the towers).

That would be one relaible form of communication on the day of the murders, vs. using mobile devices.

JMO