Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[Yemelyan]

Delphi needs to put a phone call into Fishers' LE to see if they can help the case using their new equipment. Maybe it still does just the same process as CODIS but is just faster. He says if old crime scene evidence is preserved properly, there's still a chance that they can do something.
[snips]
The department can now test for DNA in just 90 minutes.
The new equipment, which is manufactured by Thermo Fisher Scientific, is helping the Fishers Police Department generate leads and identify suspects faster.
...
Detective Sgt. Jim Hawkins of Fishers said, “The criminal forensics investigators will come in, take their crime scene samples or suspect samples. They’ll put it into a cartridge. It’ll go into the instrument itself here and then the software will tell us if we have a DNA profile and, if so, does it match to an existing case.”
...
Hawkins said, “What the presumptive positive test will allow us to do is to make sure the night or day of the offense that we can confirm that we do have the correct suspect and we do have a match to the crime scene DNA, but we also follow that up with conventional DNA for the court process.”

Fishers police add DNA testing device

FISHERS, Ind. — Fishers police has added a device to help solve crimes. The department can now test for DNA in just 90 minutes. The new equipment, which is manufactured by Thermo Fisher Scientific, is helping the Fishers Police Department generate leads and identify suspects faster. Chief Ed...

www.wishtv.com

Just a caveat, this technology might not be all it's touted to be: 'Rapid DNA' promises breakthroughs in solving crimes. So why does it face a backlash?

I believe in Nevada they are looking into whether it should be used for higher level crimes like rape or murder at all, because of concerns about its accuracy. With this technology, the rapid DNA tests are run by law enforcement officers instead of trained forensic scientists so there is criticism that tests like this, performed outside of a forensic laboratory, may not be accurate enough to even follow through with conventional testing. One of the biggest reasons that contribute to this criticism, is that the technology does not work well on complex mixtures of DNA, as would be seen in most sexual assaults and in murders like Delphi, where the girls were even wearing borrowed outerwear. From the article:

There is no question the devices work well on “single-source DNA,” genetic material that comes from a single person. The problem comes when there is a mixture of DNA from multiple individuals, said Vincent A. Figarelli, superintendent of Arizona’s Crime Laboratory System. In those situations, a trained forensic scientist is needed to interpret it.

“Mixture interpretation is the most difficult thing that crime laboratory analysts have to do by far,” Figarelli said. “There’s no way you want a Rapid DNA operator doing a mixture analysis.”

There is also a greater chance that rapid DNA testing will consume the entire sample available for testing, meaning that conventional laboratory analysis would not be possible after the fact or by the defense team at trial.

 

[Charlot123]

Just a caveat, this technology might not be all it's touted to be: 'Rapid DNA' promises breakthroughs in solving crimes. So why does it face a backlash?

I believe in Nevada they are looking into whether it should be used for higher level crimes like rape or murder at all, because of concerns about its accuracy. With this technology, the rapid DNA tests are run by law enforcement officers instead of trained forensic scientists so there is criticism that tests like this, performed outside of a forensic laboratory, may not be accurate enough to even follow through with conventional testing. One of the biggest reasons that contribute to this criticism, is that the technology does not work well on complex mixtures of DNA, as would be seen in most sexual assaults and in murders like Delphi, where the girls were even wearing borrowed outerwear. From the article:

There is no question the devices work well on “single-source DNA,” genetic material that comes from a single person. The problem comes when there is a mixture of DNA from multiple individuals, said Vincent A. Figarelli, superintendent of Arizona’s Crime Laboratory System. In those situations, a trained forensic scientist is needed to interpret it.

“Mixture interpretation is the most difficult thing that crime laboratory analysts have to do by far,” Figarelli said. “There’s no way you want a Rapid DNA operator doing a mixture analysis.”

There is also a greater chance that rapid DNA testing will consume the entire sample available for testing, meaning that conventional laboratory analysis would not be possible after the fact or by the defense team at trial.

It should not consume the whole DNA because PCR amplification (making copies of DNA) is very fast.
JMO - a great method to process backlogs in rape kits. Let us be honest - even if all DNA were consumed with the new method, with the current backlog, how rational is to expect these kits to be processed? They say some of them need to be thrown out due to statute of limitation for rape. Just for interest

Map: How long does your state give rape survivors to pursue justice?

34 states have statutes of limitations on filing rape or sexual-assault charges.

www.motherjones.com

Anything that can help is great.

Not quite about our case, but Indiana’s laws re rape may not help in general

These laws let accused rapists like Bill Cosby off the hook

In most states, sexual-assault survivors must come forward quickly—or lose their chance at justice.

www.motherjones.com

ETA: in the second article, the total backlog is stated as 500,000 kits.

 

[Yemelyan]

It should not consume the whole DNA because PCR amplification (making copies of DNA) is very fast.
JMO - a great method to process backlogs in rape kits. Let us be honest - even if all DNA were consumed with the new method, with the current backlog, how rational is to expect these kits to be processed? They say some of them need to be thrown out due to statute of limitation for rape. Just for interest

Map: How long does your state give rape survivors to pursue justice?

34 states have statutes of limitations on filing rape or sexual-assault charges.

www.motherjones.com

Anything that can help is great.

Not quite about our case, but Indiana’s laws re rape may not help in general

These laws let accused rapists like Bill Cosby off the hook

In most states, sexual-assault survivors must come forward quickly—or lose their chance at justice.

www.motherjones.com

ETA: in the second article, the total backlog is stated as 500,000 kits.

Unfortunately this specific method CAN consume the entire sample. As explained in the article I linked above, rapid DNA testing does not involve any laboratory benchwork (as would be required for PCR amplification). The machines basically only require a LE officer, who in untrained in any other forensic technique, to stick a sample inside and press a button. It's great if you want to quickly test the handle of a gun if you need a lead on a crime like a robbery. It's not great if the technology is going to be relied on to decide whether someone gets the death penalty.

It would be particularly bad IMO to rely on this to manage the rape kit backlog where it is very important to 1. Detect linkages between multiple crimes and 2. Where the samples are not single source DNA in many cases...for obvious reasons.

I agree that the answer to the Delphi case could definitely lie in an untested rape kit somewhere, I disagree that this technology is a great method to discover it.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Fishers article states that this is only one step and they will still follow up the results with conventional DNA for the court process. They will also continue to work with ISP. Hopefully, Fishers has received guidance on when to restrict processing due to limited samples?

 

[FromGermany1]

no they did not say they have moved on which is interesting because right after they said they were looking into him,
they announced a blackout for all media pertaining to the case. like literally right after..which kind of really started
a fire burning in regard to him and within days he exclaimed he couldn't get a fair trial based on everyone thinking he was
the Delphi Killer..isn't it odd? like there was a blackout and no one was saying boo..but JBC put it out there..floated it out there like he was the next big deal and it wasn't going to be fair for him...

oh I am on JBC...until they hold up the rat that did this in my face and tell me he is a confessed DNA matched killer, I will
be sitting here throwing shade his way..because I see right through him. mOO

I believe, JBC is capable of murder, even double murder, but isn't smart enough, to have left no clues. MOO

 

[FromGermany1]

I agree that the answer to the Delphi case could definitely lie in an untested rape kit somewhere, I disagree that this technology is a great method to discover it.

I believe, he didn't rape and had no intention to rape. He fulfilled only his phantasies. MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

The Fishers article states that this is only one step and they will still follow up the results with conventional DNA for the court process. They will also continue to work with ISP. Hopefully, Fishers has received guidance on when to restrict processing due to limited samples?

Hopefully so - it could still be a very useful tool in certain cases. I doubt it's the answer in a case like Delphi where it appears that the DNA situation tends to the complex - admittedly we don't know exactly what's going on the DNA in this case but it seems like it may tend that way based on comments from Paul Holes, Carter and others. My concern is less the consumable aspect and more the lack of accuracy with DNA admixtures (which you would need to start with conventional DNA lab work to establish, IMO).

 

[sandy_80]

apparently DNA is useless in this case.. or we wouldnt be in this sea of suspect confusion
however id say they have complicated partial sample but its human.. not like so many like to insert ( its a dog Dna !)
imagine asking paul holes for help regarding a dog sample ..

 

[IQuestion]

Did anyone keep a memo or notes on what KAK first denied but later admitted to? My biggest takeaway from the transcript was that, it seemed to me, KAK denied almost everything at first even when it was obviously true, then would reluctantly admit things. The only thing that I remember him denying and not later admitting is sending the message about Libby not showing up.

SILVER (I wanted to address your question earlier, but outside obligations took precedence.) Quoting "reluctantly admitted" is basically how his entire interview proceeded. After counting more than 28 lies (even though even wouldn't admit them) in the first 56 pages, I quit counting! KAK (Frosted glass nailed it with pathological liar) knows how, has developed a "smoke and mirrors" way of responding that is either argumentative, nonresponsive, noncommittal, misleading or purposely confusing.
How do you classify "I don't recall"??? "I don't remember."??? "Thar's what they tell me."??? "Yeah", then says "no", in the same sentence. ??? "Or constantly saying right, uh huh.???" FOLKS, HE AIN'T ADMITTING NOTHIN' !!!
However, if you will deposit $100 into his chirp account and $300 into his commissary account he might truthfully tell you his favorite snacks.

 

[IQuestion]

Open question. Since LE indicated two separate users were using the A_S account;
Do they also think the same person "hijacked" the EmA account, too? Does it seem odd/curious to anyone else that the "hijacker" of the accounts would feel comfortable enough to assume both male and female personas? The reason I have a difficult time with it, is KAK strikes me as a character who would go through withdrawals if he was separated from his phones for more than 2 hours. And, I don't believe he would give out his passwords considering his proclivities. Then again, I have known close family members, business partners to share passwords.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

 

[TL4S]

Open question. Since LE indicated two separate users were using the A_S account;
Do they also think the same person "hijacked" the EmA account, too? Does it seem odd/curious to anyone else that the "hijacker" of the accounts would feel comfortable enough to assume both male and female personas? The reason I have a difficult time with it, is KAK strikes me as a character who would go through withdrawals if he was separated from his phones for more than 2 hours. And, I don't believe he would give out his passwords considering his proclivities. Then again, I have known close family members, business partners to share passwords.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

There are several things in that interview that I am curious about.

• Were the 2015/2016 emilyanne "Adam" and "daddy" chats happening on phones that KAK was using at the time, or were they on his old phones, which maybe he thought were inactivated? KAK claims the dates were wrong and he was using newer phones during that time. FWIW.
• Those same 2015/2016 emilyanne chats, full of "daddy" stuff, had a lot of the "Is it wrong...?" and "Is it bad...?" phrasing, which is also what LE claimed a_shots said to L. "Is it bad I'm super into you?" Or something of the sort. This leads me to believe whoever was saying that in the emilyanne "daddy" chats was also talking to L as a_shots.
• Did the girl who Skyped with the "daddy" person hear his voice? Could she recognize it if she heard it again?
• What did the photo of "daddy," which emilyanne sent to the same Skype girl, look like? Who was it a photo of, and was it also a fake like a_shots?
• How many activated phones/devices did KAK have at any given time? Was there clear evidence that they were being used at the same time? How about one being used when the other was GPS marked to somewhere outside of the house?
• Which two devices were logging rapidly in and out of a_shots on the morning of Feb. 13, 2017?
• Exactly when did KAK get that Samsung Galaxy 5?

Lastly, I would like to know if TK's devices were confiscated during the Nov. 2021 "raid" at the Peru house.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

New Poll:

If KAK didn’t kill A&L, do you think he knows who murdered them?

Just wondering what you think.

www.websleuths.com

 

[Charlot123]

I believe, he didn't rape and had no intention to rape. He fulfilled only his phantasies. MOO

I am torn between sick phantasy (one cluster) and a person who, cold-heatedly destroyed teenagers for a more prosaic reason and then created the picture of “sick fantasy” (a very different cluster). These two things, the fast murders and spending the time on sick fantasy, diverge. It might be so that if, indeed, two people were involved, one was covering up for the other. Anyhow, the perpetrator is not stupid and knows how to plan. So far, no official poi has fully fit. The only thing about KAK that fits is that he knows electronics. This guy, the killer, is almost hacker level, I think.

 

[Boxer]

I believe, JBC is capable of murder, even double murder, but isn't smart enough, to have left no clues. MOO

He is a lucky criminal. And shoplifting, the art of seeing distraction and gaps on security is his forte in MOO.
He only got caught in Lafayette because of the EXCELLENT POLICE FORCE they have there. They are just on it in earnest.

 

[Diddian]

Open question. Since LE indicated two separate users were using the A_S account;
Do they also think the same person "hijacked" the EmA account, too? Does it seem odd/curious to anyone else that the "hijacker" of the accounts would feel comfortable enough to assume both male and female personas? The reason I have a difficult time with it, is KAK strikes me as a character who would go through withdrawals if he was separated from his phones for more than 2 hours. And, I don't believe he would give out his passwords considering his proclivities. Then again, I have known close family members, business partners to share passwords.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

I agree with you about KAK's unwillingness to separate from his DEVICES and unwillingness to share password access to whatever PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNTS he used as a base from which to operate the fake social media accounts... if I'm correctly understanding how this worked.

However, if KAK had recurring paying "clientele" for the images, videos, and/or chats he gained through his digital person-fakery, I could totally see him going the next step and selling some of those recurring "clients" passwords to temporarily use the fake social media accounts to engage with the connected victims for a given time. (Be "AS" for a day for the low, low price of $...).

If he did this, I think he also would have observed those digital interactions so he'd be aware what transpired as he'd need to know if he was to subsequently resume the AS identify himself. And once he thought the "client" had gotten their money's worth, he'd just reset the password to those social media accounts and lock them back out. So, he'd go from selling product (illicit images, videos, and chats) to selling access to the already-primed-to-engage victims for interactive process (so the client could solicit images or videos, or engage in chats for himself).

If one of KAK's clients had familiarity with the EA account's interactions with victims (i.e. had purchased and viewed images, videos, or chats that had been shared with that social media account), I think they could have learned from those observations and I don't think they would hesitate to use that account just as KAK had, impersonating a female to get other females to share images or chat. That is, they'd do whatever they needed to do to get whatever they were hoping to get out of it.

Does that address your question, or did I misunderstand what you were asking (or am I misunderstanding how these accounts work...?).

 

[AC4RD]

Open question. Since LE indicated two separate users were using the A_S account;
Do they also think the same person "hijacked" the EmA account, too? Does it seem odd/curious to anyone else that the "hijacker" of the accounts would feel comfortable enough to assume both male and female personas? The reason I have a difficult time with it, is KAK strikes me as a character who would go through withdrawals if he was separated from his phones for more than 2 hours. And, I don't believe he would give out his passwords considering his proclivities. Then again, I have known close family members, business partners to share passwords.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

That's a good question to raise! My own opinion--and I have NOT read the transcripts thoroughly, I can't stomach it--is that maybe LE _said_ there were two users but didn't really believe it. Strictly guessing, it strikes me that LE asked about the "two different users" and writing styles hoping to lock KAK down on the issue. IOW, get KAK to say "no, I'm the only person who used my phone." OR:

LE: "we see there were two users of that account ..." KAK: "No, nobody else used my phone." Trap snaps, KAK has admitted anything that is on that phone or that came from that phone, is his, not the legendary "some other dude."

I've said this before, and I think very few people think that's a possibility. And as I said, I haven't read the transcripts comprehensively, they turned my stomach. But I still think it's possible. (And if one of you refutes that with other testimony, I'll admit I was wrong.)

 

[TL4S]

I agree with you about KAK's unwillingness to separate from his DEVICES and unwillingness to share password access to whatever PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNTS he used as a base from which to operate the fake social media accounts... if I'm correctly understanding how this worked.

However, if KAK had recurring paying "clientele" for the images, videos, and/or chats he gained through his digital person-fakery, I could totally see him going the next step and selling some of those recurring "clients" passwords to temporarily use the fake social media accounts to engage with the connected victims for a given time. (Be "AS" for a day for the low, low price of $...).

If he did this, I think he also would have observed those digital interactions so he'd be aware what transpired as he'd need to know if he was to subsequently resume the AS identify himself. And once he thought the "client" had gotten their money's worth, he'd just reset the password to those social media accounts and lock them back out. So, he'd go from selling product (illicit images, videos, and chats) to selling access to the already-primed-to-engage victims for interactive process (so the client could solicit images or videos, or engage in chats for himself).

If one of KAK's clients had familiarity with the EA account's interactions with victims (i.e. had purchased and viewed images, videos, or chats that had been shared with that social media account), I think they could have learned from those observations and I don't think they would hesitate to use that account just as KAK had, impersonating a female to get other females to share images or chat. That is, they'd do whatever they needed to do to get whatever they were hoping to get out of it.

Does that address your question, or did I misunderstand what you were asking (or am I misunderstanding how these accounts work...?).

If we are to believe the 2020 interview, the GPS and IP address data for these chats originated from the Peru house. If someone used KAK's device, or hijacked his wifi, then is still doesn't explain why a_shots continued to communicate with L after her death, from Vegas, while KAK and TK were there.

I agree that L's personal data could have been shared with an outside party, but if that's the case, I think LE likely would have GPS and IP addresses from other sources besides the Peru house. Maybe they do and we just don't know it, but in the interview they said two devices were logging in and out of a_shots the morning of the murders, from the Peru house.

If an outside party was involved, there would have had to be some kind of communication between KAK and that person around the day of the murder. I can't see how not. I'm curious about that, too.

 

[Boxer]

If we are to believe the 2020 interview, the GPS and IP address data for these chats originated from the Peru house. If someone used KAK's device, or hijacked his wifi, then is still doesn't explain why a_shots was still communicating with L after her death, from Vegas, while KAK and TK were there.

I agree that L's personal data could have been shared with an outside party, but if that's the case, I think LE likely would have GPS and IP addresses from other sources besides the Peru house. Maybe they do and we just don't know it, but in the interview they said two devices were logging in and out of a_shots the morning of the murders, from the Peru house.

If an outside party was involved, there would have had to be some kind of communication between KAK and that person around the day of the murder. I can't see how not. I'm curious about that, too.

Agree.
KAK covered in crumbs points out others had access to the kitchen as liars do.
MOO KAK is POI #1.

Police then meticulously search of any (digital) footprint of others gaining access to the account. Subpoenas, investigations etc.
Finally KAK cornered in cookie crumbs gives up info on something tossed from the Wabash Bridge.

Hope police closed off the “others having access” down to two suspects covered in crumbs. TK and KAK, the son a lifelong patsy, fall guy, wingman … made creep by his own father — has rage issues like his Dad also.

 

[sandy_80]

I am torn between sick phantasy (one cluster) and a person who, cold-heatedly destroyed teenagers for a more prosaic reason and then created the picture of “sick fantasy” (a very different cluster). These two things, the fast murders and spending the time on sick fantasy, diverge. It might be so that if, indeed, two people were involved, one was covering up for the other. Anyhow, the perpetrator is not stupid and knows how to plan. So far, no official poi has fully fit. The only thing about KAK that fits is that he knows electronics. This guy, the killer, is almost hacker level, I think.

how .. when he he didnt even ask for the phone but just ordered them down the hill ?
how does this speaks of any interest or knowledge about TECH ?

 

[Diddian]

If we are to believe the 2020 interview, the GPS and IP address data for these chats originated from the Peru house. If someone used KAK's device, or hijacked his wifi, then is still doesn't explain why a_shots continued to communicate with L after her death, from Vegas, while KAK and TK were there.

I agree that L's personal data could have been shared with an outside party, but if that's the case, I think LE likely would have GPS and IP addresses from other sources besides the Peru house. Maybe they do and we just don't know it, but in the interview they said two devices were logging in and out of a_shots the morning of the murders, from the Peru house.

If an outside party was involved, there would have had to be some kind of communication between KAK and that person around the day of the murder. I can't see how not. I'm curious about that, too.

So, as I understand it (and sorry if this is supposed to be simple), the GPS would be for the devices and the IP address for the internet connection. There is no cellphone account involved because KAK used the devices as mini-computers rather than as cellphones.

I know people can sometimes spoof cellphone numbers (so it looks like you are getting a call or text from a number other than the one the caller is using to make the call or to send the text). Can an IP address similarly be spoofed?

Or, would the IP address identification mean that the user would have to have been within reach of that IP addressee's internet signal? And, how far could an internet signal be extended IF someone had motivation to make it as far-reaching as possible so it (ETA: or a guest network at the same IP address) would be available to others outside of his home? With a far-reaching wireless router AND multiple satellites (which I assume could be placed anywhere there is an electrical outlet), could someone live several blocks from the outside limit of their internet reach?