Just Patsy, only Patsy

[Chelly]

The other day, I noticed in a Larry King transcript that Steve Thomas said he thought this was a rage incident that started in the bathroom with maybe PR slamming JB's head against the tub or something like that. Do you think the tub or sink is likely or do you think he was trying to give PR a benefit of the doubt? If JB was Knocked unconscious in the bathroom, I wonder what accounted for the scream in the basement? I know the test on the sound from the basement wasn't exact science, but I do believe the neighbor lady heard the scream. Confusing stuff as always. moo.

I believe it has been shown the the head fracture was inconsistent with skull force against a tub or sink.

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe it has been shown the the head fracture was inconsistent with skull force against a tub or sink.

I agree. Also inconsistent with falling or being dropped. A coroner can always tell. The angle, how the displaced bone fell into the skull, the lack of scalp laceration, etc.
It is exactly what the coroner said it was...blunt force trauma. Bludgeoned with a blunt object.

 

[wengr]

Imo, the ransom note is all Patsy. I do not believe John was involved in the RN at all.
Personally, there is no way that I would be involved in a crime or coverup that could result in my being imprisoned for many years and not be in complete control of the note. It would be obvious that the note would be held and examined quite thoroughly.
I feel that if John would have had any input into the note at all, then it would have been alot closer to what it should have been:
"I have your daughter
1M USD
Stand by the phone"

 

[BOESP]

I believe it has been shown the the head fracture was inconsistent with skull force against a tub or sink.

I would disagree that it has been disproved. The wound is consistent with a low velocity-high pressure incident. A search of JonBenet's forum here will show the arguments presented for this. I could be wrong but she could have been flung into something, her head slammed against the floor or bathtub or other fixture as she lay for her cleansing, or several other scenarios.

I've also considered that perhaps she was pushed onto the hand-weight that was found in her bedroom or that the weight was somehow involved. Iirc, it was found near JonBenet's bed.

I've forgotten why it is thought the scream had to have come from the basement. Neighbor Melody Stanton said she heard a scream then retracted her statement. Even if she did hear it I don't see how she could have known it came from the Ramsey basement. Her husband, reportedly asleep at the time of the scream, stated he heard something like metal scraping against concrete. Several have posted they believed this noise also came from the basement but, imo, it could have been a concrete grate covering a manhole or drain in the street that made the noise.

 

[BOESP]

I agree. Also inconsistent with falling or being dropped. A coroner can always tell. The angle, how the displaced bone fell into the skull, the lack of scalp laceration, etc.
It is exactly what the coroner said it was...blunt force trauma. Bludgeoned with a blunt object.

Blunt force trauma is also defined as being contact between a moving body or body part and a stationary object. It includes but is not specific to bludgeoning. Here's a quick reference:

Blunt trauma, blunt injury, non-penetrating trauma or blunt force trauma refers to physical trauma caused to a body part, either by impact, injury or physical attack; the latter usually being referred to as blunt force trauma. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt-force_trauma

If any one is interested, a search for the word "velocity" here on JonBenet's forum will bring up the former discussions on this or a Google search for "blount force trauma" will provide additional information.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Has it ever been discussed why John and Patsy waited about 5-6 years after they were married to have a child? Did Patsy have problems getting pregnant? Or was John reluctant to start a new family?

However, I think that if Patsy wanted a baby immediately after getting married, well, she would have one. Did Patsy and Nedra always have the dream of their daughter/granddaughter being Miss America one day, or not until JonBenet was born? It was also about 3 years between Burke's birth and her getting pregnant with JonBenet. It does not seem like Patsy was in any rush to have a girl.

One theory I have is that Patsy knew if she had a girl, the girl would be molested by someone in the family (Don or John) and that's why she put off having one. Or maybe she knew the pressure her mother would put on a girl. Because when you think about how JonBenet was the trophy child/mini-Patsy/future Miss America, it seems odd that it took 9 years after they got married for her to be born. It's not like she was preceded by a bunch of older brothers. I also remember hearing that Patsy tried to get Melinda and Beth interested in pageants, but they weren't having it. Maybe Patsy didn't even want kids, but when she realized that her stepdaughters weren't going to do the whole pageant thing, well she now needed a daughter?

So IDK if this is relevant to the case, but maybe it would give us some idea of the dynamics of that family. Like the fact that John seemed more traumatized by Beth's death than JonBenet's...maybe John didn't want anymore kids? Or maybe JonBenet was only born so the family could have a Miss America one day? Or maybe Patsy didn't want a child because she was scared she wouldn't be able to lose the extra weight, or get back the body she had before?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Bump


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[bettybaby00]

Bump


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Is it bad that I just laughed?

 

[bettybaby00]

From up thread....

I think the head bash came first... That seems to be the consensus.
I believe she wrote it and it was far too dramatic and ridiculous to have been authored by John. It screams Patsy all Patsy IMO.

Especially I think b/c of....

. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense. It is up to you now John!

To me it reads as if he's "guilty," of something. Whether it's guilty of literally killing her--meaning not responsible for the head bash; or guilty of sexual abuse???

 

[chlban]

Imo, the ransom note is all Patsy. I do not believe John was involved in the RN at all.
Personally, there is no way that I would be involved in a crime or coverup that could result in my being imprisoned for many years and not be in complete control of the note. It would be obvious that the note would be held and examined quite thoroughly.
I feel that if John would have had any input into the note at all, then it would have been alot closer to what it should have been:
"I have your daughter
1M USD
Stand by the phone"

ITA. If John had written it, it wouldn't have been so absurd and over the top dramatic. It screams Patsy, IMO.

 

[DeDee]

Psalms

20:5 We will shout for joy when you are -victorious

118:15 Shouts of joy and -victory -resound in the tents of the righteous. The Lord's right hand has done mighty things.

MOO

Episcopalians include the book of Psalms in the Book of Common Prayer that are incorporated into the worship services. There is pomp and majesty observed in the service and even more so at the special calendar events of Easter and Christmas. Psalms are sung usually with an accompaniment of a pipe organ and choir.

Patsy must have been singing meaningful passages located in the Book of Psalms to her daughter. Or chanting the prose from memory.

That makes this set up sound more like a ceremony.


OMO

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Episcopalians include the book of Psalms in the Book of Common Prayer that are incorporated into the worship services. There is pomp and majesty observed in the service and even more so at the special calendar events of Easter and Christmas. Psalms are sung usually with an accompaniment of a pipe organ and choir.

Patsy must have been singing meaningful passages located in the Book of Psalms to her daughter. Or chanting the prose from memory.

That makes this set up sound more like a ceremony.


OMO

Or ritual. Premeditated, predestined. I can only wonder what was said, likely a Psalm. And this could explain the scream heard by the neighbor.

 

[DeDee]

BBM

<snip for space> PR:

I like (not) how she can go from an intoxicated psycho witch (i.e. in LE interviews) to a completly victimized femme-fatale in televised interviews.
Oh the duality........

An astute observation, Honey.


BILL BICKEL
On Larry King, you gave John a “pass” on the murder. Do you suspect he abused JonBenet in any way?
STEVE THOMAS
As I’ve said previously, I do not think John Ramsey was the offender in this case. Either in the death of his daughter, or otherwise. I may be proved wrong someday, but I just didn’t see it in this case. As I’ve said, I believe in my heart the mother was the offender.

BBM

It has been implied from a recent link of the parents on Larry King that ST said repeatedly that JR "wasn't there" and in so much gave JR a "free pass".
Some here take what ST said to mean that literally JR wasn't home, some interpret it to mean that JR was sleeping.

Personally, I think JR wasn't home.

JR was flying to MI to continue Christmas celebrations with his children. He was not busy killing his daughter. IMO, JR was fast asleep.

JR was not home on Christmas Day sometime between 11:00 and 4:00 bc he was loading the jet with their stuff. Only PR had more Christmas stuff for the trip at home that would go w/ them to the airport. IIRC, it was a 40 min. drive or less than an hour and a half round trip.

Did JR make a call midday on the 26th to his pilot for arranging a flight east at the point where; he knew JonBenet was dead and gone, BR was safe with the White's, PR was in a world of trouble, unless she could convince him that there was doubt PDI?

<RSBM>

And of course, JR may have felt guilty for not "being there" as ST repeatedly stated in the interview and JR never refuted.

JR was away many hours for years becoming a fat cat. Consider also that Patsy took the children for the summer, beginning in June, and remained at their beach home. What did PR do with her time all summer while JR was in Boulder working?

Who was the man with the pricey cowboy boots who slept in JBRs room in Charlevoix after Patsy left in late August '96?


Repeating an otg post:

(snipped)

<RSBM>

This is why (I think) we see so many posters say things like, "I just don't believe _____ (fill in the blank here with any one of the R's) would be capable of doing this." And I would suggest, the investigators in Boulder might also be just as likely to do this same thing, even though they should be exposed more often to some of the evil things that people do.

If you don't believe pure evil can exist, just do a search for information on Jonathan and Sarah Adleta who were just recently sentenced for what they did to their kids. They had children for the expressed purpose of using them for their own personal abuse. But don't read about them without knowing ahead of time that some of the information will just make you want to throw up. (I'll admit, it did make my eyes tear up just reading about it.)

Thankfully, I have seen movies, read and perhaps dreamed of more evil than I have witnessed or personally seen but I know it exists just as I know love exists.

Jonathan and Sarah Adleta - I shall save this assignment for next week. TY


OMO

 

[DeDee]

Last month, Dr. Frederick Zugibe died. Zugibe was the Chief Medical Examiner for a county in New York. In addition to being known internationally for his forensic studies on the Shroud of Turin, he co-wrote a book titled Dissecting Death. Besides writing in this book about all the mistakes made by Dr. Meyer in JonBenet’s autopsy, he wrote something interesting in a chapter about the Sandra Pankow murder case. She ran a day-care where three children died (supposedly) from SIDS while in her care during a five-year period of time. After the third child died, the bodies of the other two were exhumed and reexamined. When she was arrested, a lot of people came forward with information about things that had happened that made them suspicious of her. Dr. Zugibe writes:

Yet, as one newspaper reporter asks in the middle of the trial, “Why is it that all these people waited so long to tell the horror stories that they are telling now?” Hints of an answer may be found, I believe, in a statement made by one of the jurors several months after the trial. “It’s never nice to think that the people in your town are monsters,” she said. “We all prefer, I think, to think the best of others, and to turn away from the possibility of evil until someone comes along and shakes us, and says, ‘Look, look -- here’s the bloody truth!’”
​

Earlier in this particular chapter while telling about his being subpoenaed to testify, Dr. Zugibe prefaced this case with the following, which I see as relating to how so many people tend to view events in the death of JonBenet:

“More to the point, I was hereby being summoned to provide expert testimony in a trial that would once again drive home to me a definitive rule of forensic psychology: When unspeakably wicked events happen in quiet, wholesome places -- or, to put it another way, when ordinary people are confronted with the horror of naked evil -- their tendency is to deny the evidence of their reason and senses; sometimes -- often, perhaps -- to an irrational degree.”
​

R.I.P., Dr. Zugibe.

"...when ordinary people are confronted with the horror of naked evil -- their tendency is to deny the evidence of their reason and senses; sometimes -- often, perhaps -- to an irrational degree.”
Dr. Zugibe

Can this be repeated too often?

OMO

 

[DeDee]

Or ritual. Premeditated, predestined. I can only wonder what was said, likely a Psalm. And this could explain the scream heard by the neighbor.

Ritual. Premeditated. Predestined. Liberation. Salvation. Victory!

Dayum. BlueBottle. You know what this means. She's dead.

Where's the justice?


OMO. I am not a psychologist and do not play one on here.

 

[DeDee]

(Sorry if this is the wrong thread. Excuse my prattling here, in advance.)

WHOEVER murdered JB, whoever abused her, Patsy wrote that note, no question. (moo)

Why were the last few lines so personal, angry at John? It tells me that even if JR was not involved in anything Christmas night, Patsy still blamed JR for what happened, at least somewhat. Either for 'choosing' JB over Patsy in the first place (chronic molestation), or if BR did it---maybe Patsy saw it as John's choosing his son over JB, in that John did not step in and help her control BR, or take BR's angry behavior seriously like Patsy had---buying self-help books, etc.

The doctor's visits, calls to Dr, etc...don't seem like something that the actual molester would do, for fear of being caught. Perhaps Patsy was trying desperately to get the Dr. to NOTICE the molestation without having to actually report it, because Patsy herself felt helpless to stop the male/s in that house? It would be just like Patsy to need a MAN (male Dr.) to validate her, when no one in her house would. jmo

(I had not heard that there might be a tiny question as to whether JR was even home when JB died---to me, that would really make PR blame JR for JB's death. )

Regardless if John was home, or asleep, or innocent in the molestation**---Patsy still expressed blame toward John in the note.

So what all is John to blame for in Patsy's mind that night? Actual molestation, actual killing, or maybe John's failure to stop Burke, John's failure to listen to Patsy for months/years, when she was freaking out that her 'prized child' was being molested and/or regularly hurt by her brother? Or was John's 'blame' simply that he over-stressed Patsy with ALL the childcare and trip preparation; maybe Patsy thought the child-abuse 'accident' would never have happened if John had offered more help, or had not pressured Patsy (in her mind) for everything to be so perfect to outside eyes? (And perhaps Patsy's need for perfection was behind the cleaning of JB---washing away the 'sin' committed against her body?)

My worst scenario is that Patsy bought the cord & tape at the store weeks in advance, planned it somewhat, to take JB away from John/Burke & the molestation, perhaps a sacrifice to 'save' JB. ? This theory is the most chilling, but if anyone was crazy enough to think that sending JB to heaven was a great option, it would have been Patsy frickin' Ramsey. If ANYONE would have wanted control over JB forever, it was Patsy. Perhaps the fear of her cancer returning, losing the ability to control and/or protect JB, instigated PR's 'preparations'?

(**Imo, the over-sized Bloomies, JR's wool fibers in JB's crotch area, and JR's suspicious movements/disappearing on the 26th indicate he WAS at least involved in the staging after the death. Even if completely innocent otherwise.)

Again, forgive me if I've repeated myself, or droned on & on here. I just read anger in that note, and I want to know what exactly Patsy blamed John for.

Thanks to anyone who actually read all this. If I've gotten any details terribly wrong, go easy on me, y'all! :truce:


ETA: I love Websleuths! I love reading these threads, ALL your theories, and best of all---I LOVE turning others onto WS. You guys are the BEST.

(**Imo, the over-sized Bloomies, JR's wool fibers in JB's crotch area, and JR's suspicious movements/disappearing on the 26th indicate he WAS at least involved in the staging after the death. Even if completely innocent otherwise.) ''

The bloomies are there. JBR was wearing them. We may never understand why.

The distinctive black shirt fiber evidence is the most difficult hurdle for PDI.

Maybe PR swiped JRs shirt across her daughter's area on purpose and with unkind intentions.


OMO

 

[Mama2JML]

(**Imo, the over-sized Bloomies, JR's wool fibers in JB's crotch area, and JR's suspicious movements/disappearing on the 26th indicate he WAS at least involved in the staging after the death. Even if completely innocent otherwise.) ''

The bloomies are there. JBR was wearing them. We may never understand why.

The distinctive black shirt fiber evidence is the most difficult hurdle for PDI.

Maybe PR swiped JRs shirt across her daughter's area on purpose and with unkind intentions.


OMO

I don't recall, ATM, does Steve Thomas mention black wool fibers in IRMI?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

"...when ordinary people are confronted with the horror of naked evil -- their tendency is to deny the evidence of their reason and senses; sometimes -- often, perhaps -- to an irrational degree.”
Dr. Zugibe

Can this be repeated too often?

OMO

That is exactley what I think John did when he found the body at 11 am and kept quiet. I have called it self delusion, something he has periodically renewed and reinforced with appearances and writing etc. I think the repetition can work both ways: they can get better at it or wear it thin.

Where's the justice?


OMO. I am not a psychologist and do not play one on here.

The justice is waiting in Boulder, maybe it is being repressed in Boulder, but Charlie Brennan et. al are making efforts to bring it out.

 

[Mama2JML]

(**Imo, the over-sized Bloomies, JR's wool fibers in JB's crotch area, and JR's suspicious movements/disappearing on the 26th indicate he WAS at least involved in the staging after the death. Even if completely innocent otherwise.) ''

The bloomies are there. JBR was wearing them. We may never understand why.

The distinctive black shirt fiber evidence is the most difficult hurdle for PDI.

Maybe PR swiped JRs shirt across her daughter's area on purpose and with unkind intentions.


OMO

DeDee, if Thomas, Kolar, Smit, Whitson, etc. have not corroborated the purported fiber evidence mentioned above in the statements BBM, then we have ample reason to doubt its existence.

(See my recent post in the IDI thread: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10340362&postcount=220"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2[/ame])

 

[questfortrue]

(**Imo, the over-sized Bloomies, JR's wool fibers in JB's crotch area, and JR's suspicious movements/disappearing on the 26th indicate he WAS at least involved in the staging after the death. Even if completely innocent otherwise.) ''

The bloomies are there. JBR was wearing them. We may never understand why.

The distinctive black shirt fiber evidence is the most difficult hurdle for PDI.

Maybe PR swiped JRs shirt across her daughter's area on purpose and with unkind intentions.


OMO

There is an additional review of this here: [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8987814"]Who molested/abused Jonbenet? - Page 30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]