Many weapons.

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't see how a bundle of cord would set off alarms at an airport.

Why would an air traveller risk having a random search, on an international flight, turn up a garrote and second ligature restraining device? It would clearly be a weapon.

For less than 2.59 (or whatever it was), and 10 minutes, the perp can make his own at the scene, and leave it at the scene.

This just doesn't seem that far fetched.

 

[narlacat]

HOTYH

I'm not being sarcastic... why would a real 'foreign faction' target JR?

 

[twinkiesmom]

I don't think the key to the case is the weapons...They key is the wiping...something an intruder would not likely to do...the dark fibers in the crotch area...was that definitely sourced to JR's shirt? (Is that info in the police interviews?)

Was the wiping to hide evidence of a soiling accident or hide evidence of abuse? If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think the key to the case is the weapons...They key is the wiping...something an intruder would not likely to do...the dark fibers in the crotch area...was that definitely sourced to JR's shirt? (Is that info in the police interviews?)

Was the wiping to hide evidence of a soiling accident or hide evidence of abuse? If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?

twinkiesmom,

Whether you're RDI or IDI, there's no arguing that the perp selected weapons.

Well the perp may not have selected any weapons at all! The idea of weapons will be very theory dependent. When interpreting these items you have to be very careful to remember they may represent staging.

Failure to do this will result in Intruder Theories such as Lou Smit's gaining popularity where a Sexual Predator indulges himself and his penchant for Erotic Asphyxiation.

why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur?

Not quite, Burke was resident, male and quite capable of a digital assault!

BlueCrab has an interesting theory regarding EA, Burke and a third party, one aspect to it, is that John may have been covering for Burke, in staging literature this is a recognized parental response in some cases.

But as usual I guess the devil will be in the detail.


.

 

[twinkiesmom]

You're mixing up posts....I didn't say anything about the weapons.

Also, my questioning of why JR allowed the staging was in reference to the maternal toileting rage theory, not BDI.

 

[Paradox]

This IMO was a feeble attempt on the part of the perp to sound familiar or close by. It actually exposes the lack of knowledge the perp had about JR, since JR is in fact not a 'southerner' and anybody close to them knows it. JR couldn't 'use that good southern common sense' even if he wanted to.

This statement shows a lack of knowledge about the Ramsey case.

The phrase in question was one known to have been used by Nedra Paugh in refering to John Ramsey in jest.

 

[Paradox]

Also, a foreign faction, small or otherwise, had nothing to do with the death of JonBenet: a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction did, according to the author of the ransom note.

I think the author may have intended the sentiment "resemble" rather than represent.

"We are a group of individuals that resemble a small foreign faction."

The transitive verb in that case would suggest the group portays or depicts rather than acts in place of as a substitute or proxy agent.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This statement shows a lack of knowledge about the Ramsey case.

The phrase in question was one known to have been used by Nedra Paugh in refering to John Ramsey in jest.

I changed my mind about the motive behind the perp's expression 'use that good southern common sense of yours'. I thought it may be an attempt to sound familiar, but it could also have been another allusion.

The whole ransom note is a string of allusions, really. Giving information, but not enough to identify.

The perp could be alluding to the fact that he's farther north geographically, by placing JR in a class of southerners, even though everybody including the perp knows he's not.

The perp alluded to a foreign faction that opposes this country, by not naming the faction.

The perp alluded to affiliation with some organization SBTC, by not naming the organization.

The perp alluded to a greater cause, beyond a kidnapping and murder, with both the Victory! and the 'you're not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult' expressions. By not naming the cause.

And then there's all those movie references...

Yep, tons and tons of allusions.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Its still possible that the second ligature could have been used along with the garrote as a more complicated restraining/choking device. It had that capability.

Its still possible that some object was used as a weapon to hit JBR over the head.

Its still possible that a stun gun was used.

If all are true, then it seems the staging idea is out. The conclusion that there was staging is premature. IOW "the staging" is still just a claim.

 

[UKGuy]

Its still possible that the second ligature could have been used along with the garrote as a more complicated restraining/choking device. It had that capability.

Its still possible that some object was used as a weapon to hit JBR over the head.

Its still possible that a stun gun was used.

If all are true, then it seems the staging idea is out. The conclusion that there was staging is premature. IOW "the staging" is still just a claim.

Holdontoyourhat,

I dont think its difficult regardless of which theory you propose, that either JonBenet was whacked on the head then strangled or she was strangled first then whacked on the head.

Each of these carries the distinct intent to kill JonBenet, certainly not play choking games, e.g. she is either dead asphyxiated or motionless comatose, no scope here for EA activity!

There is the third possibility of strangulation along with accidental head trauma which still results in JonBenet not being with us to participate in any EA activity.

I'm not saying these items were never used just that they need not have been weapons in the sense that you suggest.

IOW "the staging" is still just a claim.

The success of any claim is the extent to which it explains the circumstances and evidence, nobody has put forward an intruder theory that is more comprehensive than the staging theory.


.

 

[BBB167893]

"why would a real 'foreign faction' target JR?"

Well, if people like Michael Moore are to be believed, Lockheed is evil incarnate and anyone who works for them is evil.

"They key is the wiping...something an intruder would not likely to do...the dark fibers in the crotch area...was that definitely sourced to JR's shirt? (Is that info in the police interviews?)"

Sure is. Here you go:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Section 0202, lines 10-24

and

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm

Section 0057, lines 21-25 and 0058, line 1

"Was the wiping to hide evidence of a soiling accident or hide evidence of abuse? If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?"

If he didn't do it himself!

"Its still possible that some object was used as a weapon to hit JBR over the head."

Sure.

"Its still possible that a stun gun was used."

Possible, but HIGHLY unlikely. Stun guns leave burns. These weren't burns. I speak from personal knowledge.

"If all are true, then it seems the staging idea is out."

Like you said, "IF."

"The conclusion that there was staging is premature. IOW "the staging" is still just a claim."

Go here:

http://www.annonline.com/interviews/970623/

It might give you more information.

"The success of any claim is the extent to which it explains the circumstances and evidence, nobody has put forward an intruder theory that is more comprehensive than the staging theory."

He's right.

 

[twinkiesmom]

<<"The success of any claim is the extent to which it explains the circumstances and evidence, nobody has put forward an intruder theory that is more comprehensive than the staging theory."

He's right.>>

Has anyone put forth a theory that fits the facts better than the story allegedly told to JR's secretary by Aunt Pam?

 

[Britt]

the dark fibers in the crotch area...was that definitely sourced to JR's shirt? (Is that info in the police interviews?)

Yes. John's black wool shirt from Israel. The August 2000 Atlanta police interviews.

Was the wiping to hide evidence of a soiling accident or hide evidence of abuse?

Both, IMO - abuse being maternal abuse.

If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?

Excellent observation, Twinkiesmom. I don't think he would, and I don't think he did. Nor do I think the assault was postmortem or staging.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes. John's black wool shirt from Israel. The August 2000 Atlanta police interviews.


Both, IMO - abuse being maternal abuse.


Excellent observation, Twinkiesmom. I don't think he would, and I don't think he did. Nor do I think the assault was postmortem or staging.

Britt,

So do you think there is more to JonBenet's death than the cover up of an accident?

 

[Britt]

Britt,

So do you think there is more to JonBenet's death than the cover up of an accident?

Well, if you consider child abuse an "accident," then no.

I think Patsy abused her and ended up killing her, not meaning to. Oops. However, I also think there was a subconscious faction at work and they may have indeed intended to kill her. But if the conscious isn't aware of it, does that count as premeditation?

As for John, I don't know. Sometimes I think he was a clueless tool who joined the coverup after the 911 call. Sometimes I think he helped stage from the get-go. Either way, it would not surprise me to learn that he had been molesting JonBenét (though not involved in her death). I don't know about that.

 

[narlacat]

"why would a real 'foreign faction' target JR?"

Well, if people like Michael Moore are to be believed, Lockheed is evil incarnate and anyone who works for them is evil.

"They key is the wiping...something an intruder would not likely to do...the dark fibers in the crotch area...was that definitely sourced to JR's shirt? (Is that info in the police interviews?)"

Sure is. Here you go:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Section 0202, lines 10-24

and

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm

Section 0057, lines 21-25 and 0058, line 1

"Was the wiping to hide evidence of a soiling accident or hide evidence of abuse? If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?"

If he didn't do it himself!

"Its still possible that some object was used as a weapon to hit JBR over the head."

Sure.

"Its still possible that a stun gun was used."

Possible, but HIGHLY unlikely. Stun guns leave burns. These weren't burns. I speak from personal knowledge.

"If all are true, then it seems the staging idea is out."

Like you said, "IF."

"The conclusion that there was staging is premature. IOW "the staging" is still just a claim."

Go here:

http://www.annonline.com/interviews/970623/

It might give you more information.

"The success of any claim is the extent to which it explains the circumstances and evidence, nobody has put forward an intruder theory that is more comprehensive than the staging theory."

He's right.

Thanks for answering that question for me Dave, but I'd really like HOTYH to come back and answer it for me if he could.
I have heard your answer before of course, but wanted to hear what HOTYH thinks.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, if you consider child abuse an "accident," then no.

I think Patsy abused her and ended up killing her, not meaning to. Oops. However, I also think there was a subconscious faction at work and they may have indeed intended to kill her. But if the conscious isn't aware of it, does that count as premeditation?

As for John, I don't know. Sometimes I think he was a clueless tool who joined the coverup after the 911 call. Sometimes I think he helped stage from the get-go. Either way, it would not surprise me to learn that he had been molesting JonBenét (though not involved in her death). I don't know about that.

Britt,

Its possible, having reviewed the evidence I think John was involved but to what extent I am not certain, and a RDI theory that I have is litigious so possibly not fit for print?

Your reference to Patsy's state of mind may be relevant but until other loose ends are cleared up its difficult to measure its impact. I know of a case where a mother was paranoid-schitzophrenic, but outwardly normal and maternal, she had suffered abuse as a child and this damaged her severely, she was instrumental in the death of her son, and her husband played the stoic father to the end, the whole family agreed the son's death had been a tragic accident!

So maybe its possible the combination of medication and prior abuse tipped Patsy over the edge?


.

 

[twinkiesmom]

<<Quote:
If it was maternal toileting rage and the sexual assault (paintbrush) was merely staging, why did JR allow the postmortem sexual assault to occur, thereby pointing police attention directly at him, the (alleged) only adult male in the house?

Excellent observation, Twinkiesmom. I don't think he would, and I don't think he did. Nor do I think the assault was postmortem or staging.>>

I was referring to the paintbrush sexual assault as possibly staging. If the garotte is staging, then the other items involved in the basement assault (also from Patsy's paint kit) are also likely staging.

 

[Britt]

I was referring to the paintbrush sexual assault as possibly staging. If the garotte is staging, then the other items involved in the basement assault (also from Patsy's paint kit) are also likely staging.

That makes sense and that's what I thought, too, until I learned that the tip of the paintbrush was missing and never found, and one of the pediatric medical experts consulted in this case, Dr. David Jones, said the cellulose splinter from the paintbrush found in JB's vagina dated from an old injury (PMPT p. 560 pb)... which means that part of the paintbrush wasn't necessarily connected to the other basement staging items - it could've been someplace else (JB's bathroom?)

 

[narlacat]

I didn't know the splinter was from an old injury.
Did all the experts agree on that?