Many weapons.

[Britt]

It was a microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet's vagina, which looked like wood. PMPT p. 559 pb

The cellulose splinter was believed to have come from the same paintbrush that had been used to make the garrote. ITRMI p. 254 pb

Though Thomas does add that the source of the splinter was never definitively proved.

 

[Britt]

Please elaborate for me? Are you saying that the cellulose was deposited from the stick prior to the wiping and redressing?

Yes. IMO

I think Patsy abused JB with the missing tip of the paintbrush and she may have done so at a time prior to that night, if Dr. Jones is correct about the splinter dating to an earlier injury, and/or that night, if Dr. Spitz is correct about the splinter dating to that night.

Either way, IMO the paintbrush tip was an abuse tool that was used on JB. And IMO she was being abused with it when the violent struggle erupted that ended with the head blow. Then came wiping up and redressing in her bathroom/bedroom, followed by staging in the basement.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Whatever happened that night started in the bedroom.

The paintbrush tip....Why choose an item three floors down, rather than something handy to that room?

Unless you're trying to create a scene where a perp was trying to get out a basement window via standing on a suitcase, and the only stick handy is a paintbrush.

 

[tumble]

It was a microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet's vagina, which looked like wood. PMPT p. 559 pb

I was wondering, this car park that JR and Burke was building after they got home from the Whites.
What material was that made of?
If there was some wooden part in it I think it would be very likely that a microscoping splinter could have stucked to JR's finger.

 

[Eagle1]

Excerpt from Quote:

I think it's possible the tip was broken off previously and used as a punishment tool, and wasn't necessarily still in the basement.

You mean it could have been up in the bedroom? Very unusual punishment tool, but anything's possible.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it's possible the tip was broken off previously and used as a punishment tool, and wasn't necessarily still in the basement.

Britt,

Could be but it would be a small piece, unless the paintbrush was one of those lengthy distance brushes, also since the paintbrush handle was broken in two places with the shards of wood left on the floor outside the wine-cellar, it would have been a simple matter to match the ends left to see how recent or fresh the breaks were.

If they had not been recent we would have heard about it from Steve Thomas, since this plays right into his toilet rage theory?

LHP placed the painting materials into thebasement prior to JonBenet's death so she will be able to confirm she did or did not place them on the floor outside the wine-cellar?

JonBenet was probably killed upstairs, the location will be dependent on your favorite theory, e.g. Bathroom: PDI.


.

 

[BBB167893]

"You mean it could have been up in the bedroom? Very unusual punishment tool, but anything's possible."

if it wasn't just Burke and JB messing around a few days before. That's the big one for me: we can't be sure WHO the abuser was, even if we agree that she had been abused.

 

[Britt]

Could be but it would be a small piece, unless the paintbrush was one of those lengthy distance brushes...

How long was the paintbrush originally? Do we know?

also since the paintbrush handle was broken in two places with the shards of wood left on the floor outside the wine-cellar, it would have been a simple matter to match the ends left to see how recent or fresh the breaks were.

Would the lab be able to distinguish between the two breaks had they occurred close together in time, say within 48 hours or so of each other?

LHP placed the painting materials into thebasement prior to JonBenet's death so she will be able to confirm she did or did not place them on the floor outside the wine-cellar?

She said she'd put the tote at the foot of the basement stairs on December 23 and she didn't know who had moved it (PMPT p. 729 pb).

Also, Dec. 23 was the last day LHP was there.

Now where was that paint tote before LHP took it to the basement on the 23rd?

 

[tumble]

Now where was that paint tote before LHP took it to the basement on the 23rd?

In the butlers kitchen

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

Yes its an open question as to whether her sexual assault was digitally or paintbrush inspired.

I guess you select the version that suits your theory best.

It may not matter too much in the sense that whether digital or painbrush it was the end result that mattered, not the how, but in Lou Smit's strange world of sexual predators I guess it did matter?

Personally I consider it to be staging.

UKGuy,
just for clarification: I don't believe for a second that the injury inflicted to JB's vagina was 'sexual assault'. I believe it was staged by at least one Ramsey, and so did the FBI's CASKU experts.

Dr. McCann, one of the leading experts consulted on the case, stated that a much firmer object than a finger was 'jabbed' into JB's vagina. This would suggest to me that the paintbrush was used in the staging, and not a finger.

And what 'end result' precisely are you referring to? The 'end result' when JB was found in the wine cellar?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
just for clarification: I don't believe for a second that the injury inflicted to JB's vagina was 'sexual assault'. I believe it was staged by at least one Ramsey, and so did the FBI's CASKU experts.

Dr. McCann, one of the leading experts consulted on the case, stated that a much firmer object than a finger was 'jabbed' into JB's vagina. This would sugggest to me that the paintbrush was used in the staging, and not a finger.

And what 'end result' precisely are you referring to? The 'end result' when JB was found in the wine cellar?

rashomon,

Technically it was a sexual assault this is why the means is not so important e.g. digital or paintbrush.

If its staging, then other than issues of forensic evidence etc, the impression was meant to be given that she had been sexually assaulted!

This was the desired end result a bit like her ligature strangulation, once seen its difficult to argue against, even although it may be staging. I would love to ask Coroner Meyer if he considered the cause of death to be ligature strangulation or simply strangulation?

.

 

[Britt]

Now where was that paint tote before LHP took it to the basement on the 23rd?

In the butlers kitchen

Thanks, Tumble. Coincidentally, the butler's kitchen was where JonBenét was found crying that same day, the 23rd, by one of the party guests.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH

I'm not being sarcastic... why would a real 'foreign faction' target JR?

JR wasn't targeted, JBR was.

JR could've been used as a scapegoat, or an excuse 'morally' in the perp's eyes, to assault JBR. IMO the perp trumped up JR's political alignment (this country) and status (fat cat) to give himself the justification he felt he needed in his own mind, to assault and murder JBR.

Why would the Manson family target the Tates or LaBiancas? Why would Kaczynski target who he did? Why did L&L target Bobby Franks?

 

[BBB167893]

"JR could've been used as a scapegoat, or an excuse 'morally' in the perp's eyes, to assault JBR. IMO the perp trumped up JR's political alignment (this country) and status (fat cat) to give himself the justification he felt he needed in his own mind, to assault and murder JBR."

Wouldn't be the first time that happened, but I have yet to find a far-left anarchist who's also an Islamic militant. The two are kind of mutually exclusive!

"Why would the Manson family target the Tates or LaBiancas? Why would Kaczynski target who he did? Why did L&L target Bobby Franks?"

Hardly comparable, HOTYH. The Manson Family didn't care who they killed. Kaczynski specifically targeted the technological industry, etc.

"Would the lab be able to distinguish between the two breaks had they occurred close together in time, say within 48 hours or so of each other?"

Probably. They coul probably tell from how much the ends were worn if one was broken off some time before the other.

 

[hollyjokers]

Forgive me for a moment as I am not completely down, as they say, with all of the available facts of this case. It seems many people have decided the Ramseys guilt based in some part on the pineapple contents found in JBR's small intestine. PMPT stated that the coroner said that the greenish substance was consistent with pineapple, I am not sure what source confirmed the substance to definitively be pineapple. IMO Pineapple & crabmeat would seem to have a similar appearance, but somewhere someone has stated it was not the crabmeat we know she ate. How long does pineapple take to digest? It seems like the sort of food that may take awhile to break down. So the theory goes Patsy says JBR didn't eat pineapple that night, no JBR fingerprints on the bowl, spoon etc. Has it been confirmed that none of the homes the Ramseys visited that night had pineapple? It is probably foolish of me but it just seems to me when we go to friends homes, even in my own home, especially during the holidays when there is so much food available, my kids will probably eat something without my being aware of it. I just can't make the leap from JBR ate pineapple & Patsy said she didn't therefore Patsy/John are the killers. Again I'm sorry if these are redundant questions.

 

[BBB167893]

Forgive me for a moment as I am not completely down, as they say, with all of the available facts of this case. It seems many people have decided the Ramseys guilt based in some part on the pineapple contents found in JBR's small intestine. PMPT stated that the coroner said that the greenish substance was consistent with pineapple, I am not sure what source confirmed the substance to definitively be pineapple. IMO Pineapple & crabmeat would seem to have a similar appearance, but somewhere someone has stated it was not the crabmeat we know she ate. How long does pineapple take to digest? It seems like the sort of food that may take awhile to break down. So the theory goes Patsy says JBR didn't eat pineapple that night, no JBR fingerprints on the bowl, spoon etc. Has it been confirmed that none of the homes the Ramseys visited that night had pineapple? It is probably foolish of me but it just seems to me when we go to friends homes, even in my own home, especially during the holidays when there is so much food available, my kids will probably eat something without my being aware of it. I just can't make the leap from JBR ate pineapple & Patsy said she didn't therefore Patsy/John are the killers. Again I'm sorry if these are redundant questions.

Hollyjokers, I shall attempt to intelligently answer your queries.

1) It's based on a lot more than the pineapple. I'm game to give you the list if you like.

2) It's long been established to be pineapple. It was even matched to the stuff in the bowl from the house.

3) It takes about two hours for pineapple to work down to the intestines. And the Whites say NO pineapple was served at their house.

4) It's ALL redundant at this point, holly! No need to apologize. But to address you point, it would seem that the Ramseys have been caught in a lie, wouldn't it? Especially since Burke said JB was awake when they got home. So, why would an innocent person lie? See, a jury in a trial is allowed to make certain assumptions. One of them is that, if you lie about one thing, you could be lying about MANY things.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Wouldn't be the first time that happened, but I have yet to find a far-left anarchist who's also an Islamic militant. The two are kind of mutually exclusive!

From where do you derive Islamic militant or far-left anarchist?

Hardly comparable, HOTYH. The Manson Family didn't care who they killed. Kaczynski specifically targeted the technological industry, etc.

Of course they're comparable. All involve bizarre murder. The perp has way more in common with Manson, L&L, and Kaczynski than he does with the R's, that for sure.

How can you say the Manson family didn't care who they killed? Their victims weren't random at all. They picked affluent victims. Sound familiar??

 

[tumble]

Of course they're comparable. All involve bizarre murder. The perp has way more in common with Manson, L&L, and Kaczynski than he does with the R's, that for sure.


As the JBR case is unsolved comparing it other cases as a whole does not seem fruitful to me. What we can do is compare specific detail in the JBR case to other cases and that way understand the case better.

1. Personally I have a hard time seeing ANY similarities with the UNA bomber.
2. There are some simliarities to L&L(ransom note after the the fact). Dissimilarities are: They actually called the day after. Bobby was not kidnapped from his home.
3. Manson family I agree has the similarity to target wealthy folks.
Dissimilarities are: Killed everyone in sight. Very messy crimescene. Messages on walls just to name a few.
4. Diane Downs. Killed her own offspring. Staged the scene to point to BHS.
Dissimilarities are: No ransom note. Attack was not done at home. She claimed to witness the crime.
5. Darlie Routier: Killed her offspring at home. Trying to stage the scene to point to intruder.
Dissimilarities are: Very messy crimescene. No ransom note.
6. Sheppard case: Major staging at home to point at intruder(BHS).
Dissimilarities are: Very messy crimescene. No ransom note.

I don't know of any 'foreign faction' cases but lease enlighten me.
Please add to this list and please add further detail to the cases above.
Just from the list above we see that chosing to stage the scene to point to an intrudefr is acually very common both in premediated cases and like the Sheppard case, to do it after the fact.

 

[hollyjokers]

Hollyjokers, I shall attempt to intelligently answer your queries.

snipped to save space.

Thank you very much for your response SuperDave. Like I said I have not read or seen every piece of information about the case. Just my own perceptions about the Ramseys do not lead me to believe they are capable of doing something so horrific to their daughter, while at the same time I know many of their statements & actions do not make sense if they were in fact innocent. I am genuinely perplexed.

 

[BBB167893]

"From where do you derive Islamic militant or far-left anarchist?"

For the third time: the parts about "foreign faction" and "beheading" suggest an Islamic militant. Even before 9/11, it was common knowledge in this country that they behead people in the Middle East. Especially since John had been stationed in the Phillipines, and Mindanao Island is full of nasty types. But the "fat cat" stuff is right out of the radical left playbook.

"The perp has way more in common with Manson, L&L, and Kaczynski than he does with the R's, that for sure."

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

"Just my own perceptions about the Ramseys do not lead me to believe they are capable of doing something so horrific to their daughter,"

Hollyjokers, I used to think the same way. But I learned, the hard way, that villainy wears many masks, and the mask of righteousness is the deadliest one of all! It was a hard lesson, and we had ALL better learn it! As Wendy Murphy said, we have to learn that people who look nice on the outside can be dastardly on the inside.

"while at the same time I know many of their statements & actions do not make sense if they were in fact innocent."

Don't I know it.

"I am genuinely perplexed."

You're in good company.