VERDICT WATCH OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #85

[RAISINISBACK]

DBM

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I hope people aren't still thinking Leonard Manley is guilty. Several of us have posted that link multiple times. I guess we have to keep posting it.

I don't think any of the M's were involved. I never did. I have never made a post where I said I thought they were.

I said I think Angie and Jake bought those particular shoes because jake knew Lenny had a pair he was wearing.

Lenny was and always will be one of my favorite people in this. He said what he thought and he didn't care who liked it. He knew Jake was guilty from day one. I would never say or even imply one bad word about Lenny.

But I do think Jake would try to frame him and James for the murders.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Are you saying BCI fabricated the shoe print evidence? If so, that's a very strong accusation and you'll need something more to back it up.

I am not saying that. Please read my post again.

JMO

 

[91possum]

Did he have a new grow op going with CR Sr? I don't recall that. My impression has been that Chris and Kenneth had their own grow op.

If there was a "new" grow op, where was it? Who testified about it? Just curious. There's been such an evidence and testimony dump in this case its difficult to remember all of it.

Its just a theory. There was testimony from JW that CRsr took GW3 up to the back of the barn. I saw some crime seen pics showing weed growing up in the top of the barn. If ur growing u wouldnt just invite people to see, I'd think only the people involved would know. Maybe they did have a grow together, maybe GW4 was an investor, maybe he wasnt happy with security and sent the boys to buy a system. Its just a theory. Theres so much time unaccounted for ..they were doing something. Why did they need to burn the dvr? GW4 of course had no idea how it ended up in the fire pit, we have no evidence it was at his grandpas. Whole thing is fishy.

 

[Betty P]

Its just a theory. There was testimony from JW that CRsr took GW3 up to the back of the barn. I saw some crime seen pics showing weed growing up in the top of the barn. If ur growing u wouldnt just invite people to see, I'd think only the people involved would know. Maybe they did have a grow together, maybe GW4 was an investor, maybe he wasnt happy with security and sent the boys to buy a system. Its just a theory. Theres so much time unaccounted for ..they were doing something. Why did they need to burn the dvr? GW4 of course had no idea how it ended up in the fire pit, we have no evidence it was at his grandpas. Whole thing is fishy.

Agree, I'm not sure why they got Chris to take them to the barn. He must have come up with some kind of a ruse.

I doubt Billy was buying anything for Chris Sr's grow op. He had been doing his own thing for quite a while and was able to keep it quiet and clean. According to others, Chris Sr had some security cameras.

Some are still speculating that they were working on Chris's safe, trying to get it open so Billy could retrieve "his" money.

 

[ColMustard]

You cannot see plainly who is in the passenger seat in that shot. The window was rolled up and it shows barely a shoulder. Could have been anyone.

JMO

I disagree. Find a video that's not degraded. Not many people associated with Angela Wagner are going to have that same tattoo on the same shoulder.

I promise, the jury has the first generation recording of that video, and probably still shots from it.

The window was not rolled up. You can see the shoulder and part of the bicep.

 

[91possum]

I thought the 2x4 was just screwed onto the bottom of the board for stability, so it wouldn't change the width of the osb, right?

Not so much change the width as fill the gap between the bed rails and the osb board. If the 2x4s were flush to the edge of the board there would be a 1" gap between the bed rails and the board (1/2" gap either side if the board is centered). If the 2x4s were moved out from the edge of the board 1/2 an inch each side, the gap would be filled and the board would still be supported well. Im not sure how tight they built it (if it was built), judging by their welding skills it was probably a sloppy mess. My main point is, its possible to carry 480lbs of hay on a sheet of osb with two 2x4s with the truck they had

 

[pamelado2]

I am going to say this about the shoeprints.

I think one question none of us have asked is, how did BCI know Lenny M owned a pair of those exact shoes? In BCI testimony Lenny said when questioned about them he told BCI he had thrown them away long before. Maybe months. They were in the landfill. Not just in the trash. In the landfill. That was in testimony in court.

How many months before had he worn those shoes? Maybe not since Hannah and Jake broke up? Maybe Lenny got a new pair of shoes for Xmas and threw those away. But Jake knew Lenny was wearing a pair of shoes like that before. He just didn't know for sure what size Lenny wore. But he knew pretty close to what size. So he had Angie buy 2 pairs. 10.5 and 11. Jake told BCI about Lenny having a pair like that. "Old man shoes."

I don't think those shoes were ever worn at the crime scenes. Period. The two left feet of both pairs were taken to the crime scenes. Once the murders were committed those two left feet were placed in blood then stamped onto the vinyl. That is why there were only two out of the hundreds that would have been there by shooting, killing, and dragging bodies.

The timeline according to Jake has never matched up. There is hours missing from his account. Angie's too. Like rsd said they couldn't spare a minute to wipe out two left shoe prints when they had to have wiped out hundreds already?

We all saw those pictures of the living room at Chris sr's. The long bloody drag marks. But mysteriously, in walking through all that blood to drag bodies, why wasn't there a trail of bloody footprints walking out the front door when they left. No blood smears where they would have been wiped out either. In fact from the drag trail to the front door there was only a few blood spots. Tiny ones that showed no evidence of any effort to wipe anything away. Yet according to Jake he was in and out of there not once but twice. According to Jake Billy was too. But yet the floor between the drag marks and the front door was clean.

If someone still has one or two of those photos can you post them up again so we can all look at them? Just the living room.

So why didn't they "smudge out" those two prints? They did all the others. Why leave just those two prints of a pair of shoes that Jake had to know Lenny wore. Don't forget Jake hated Lenny and the feeling was mutual.

Those two prints were left to point the finger at Lenny.

Maybe they were left to point the finger James M also. The M's were not wealthy people. They were not even above poverty line. Lenny was more than likely living on SSI since he was a logger who was probably paid in cash most of his life. Ditto for James. If it rained or snowed he couldn't work. I am going to say winter in Ohio was very lean times in the M household. I think they could not afford more than that. And I think Jake knew that.

They knew Lenny couldn't afford more expensive shoes. They knew that he probably couldn't afford more than one or two pairs of shoes at a time. Ditto for James. One pair of work boots and one pair of cheap tennis shoes.

That back window at Chris sr's has never been explained either. Why was it open with the curtain hanging out?

One scenario that fits that is Jake had Angie fire those wild shots at the front of the trailer and while Chris and Gary were trying to look out to see what was going on, Chris was shot through the wall and hit in the arm. While Angie was creating a diversion Jake crawled through that back window and shot Chris and Gary with that .40 cal Glock. He then dragged the bodies to the back room, took off his shoes before he walked through the bedroom and climbed back out the window.

The print was left at Dana's for the same reason. Except the blood had been partially wiped off by placing the shoes in the floor of the vehicle.

JMO

BCI knew because they checked Walmart purchases for those shoes and found Leonard's. They had no way of knowing if they were at Leonard's still new in the box the day before the murders or not but they definitely needed to rule them out.
Also, you expect us to believe Jake was smart enough to pay attention to which shoes Leonard wore and then find out where to buy said shoes then buy them in a size he hoped was close enough to fool investigators into thinking they were Leonard's? Then not wear them but carry them to the murders and use them to leave 2 prints in 2 different sizes. That makes no sense. First of all he rarely saw Leonard, it's unlikely he knew his shoes. Buying a size he hoped were the same size as Leonard's also makes no sense. If he were smart enough to do all that he'd be smart enough to know the treads should be worn down and to get the right size.

And how would there have been hundreds of bloody prints they wiped out? Jake didn't say who dragged the bodies did he? He was getting the cameras and when he came back the bodies were already in the bedroom. Billie was so freaked out they had to calm him down outside before proceeding. It's more likely George put the bodies in the bedroom and was smudging prints when Jake came back and Billie was still freaking out wanting to leave.


In your scenario, why is Gary still in the recliner when shot?

The print at Dana's was not in blood at all, the BCI guy explained when you walk in from outside the dampness on your show leaves a print of you're not on carpet. They have to pull it with fingerprint dust. I doubt Wagner's even knew that was possible.

 

[pamelado2]

Its just a theory. There was testimony from JW that CRsr took GW3 up to the back of the barn. I saw some crime seen pics showing weed growing up in the top of the barn. If ur growing u wouldnt just invite people to see, I'd think only the people involved would know. Maybe they did have a grow together, maybe GW4 was an investor, maybe he wasnt happy with security and sent the boys to buy a system. Its just a theory. Theres so much time unaccounted for ..they were doing something. Why did they need to burn the dvr? GW4 of course had no idea how it ended up in the fire pit, we have no evidence it was at his grandpas. Whole thing is fishy.

He was showing him what he had because Billy was there to talk about a drug deal, remember?

 

[silenced]

He never said Katy was mistaken. I watched it all again. He said Chelsa was mistaken when she said Frankie and George had a grudge. He plain out said Angie and Jake were lying to BCI about him being there. He said Angie, Jake and Tabbi were mixing up two different incidents on the gun/board.

If he ever said Katy was mistaken about the truck I never heard it in listening twice, so if someone has the time stamp?

JMO

Yeah, I did follow that George referred to different events regarding Tabby. I rewatched that testimony. George didn’t get the opportunity to differentiate.

But the Katie testimony. The murder timeline doesn’t fit with George’s recollection of that morning. Other than Jake was up already which was unusual.

 

[silenced]

I hope people aren't still thinking Leonard Manley is guilty. Several of us have posted that link multiple times. I guess we have to keep posting it.

No, definitely agree Leonard Manley is not guilty. Just trying to point out the extent Ws went to point LE in that direction.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BCI knew because they checked Walmart purchases for those shoes and found Leonard's. They had no way of knowing if they were at Leonard's still new in the box the day before the murders or not but they definitely needed to rule them out.
Also, you expect us to believe Jake was smart enough to pay attention to which shoes Leonard wore and then find out where to buy said shoes then buy them in a size he hoped was close enough to fool investigators into thinking they were Leonard's? Then not wear them but carry them to the murders and use them to leave 2 prints in 2 different sizes. That makes no sense. First of all he rarely saw Leonard, it's unlikely he knew his shoes. Buying a size he hoped were the same size as Leonard's also makes no sense. If he were smart enough to do all that he'd be smart enough to know the treads should be worn down and to get the right size.

And how would there have been hundreds of bloody prints they wiped out? Jake didn't say who dragged the bodies did he? He was getting the cameras and when he came back the bodies were already in the bedroom. Billie was so freaked out they had to calm him down outside before proceeding. It's more likely George put the bodies in the bedroom and was smudging prints when Jake came back and Billie was still freaking out wanting to leave.


In your scenario, why is Gary still in the recliner when shot?

The print at Dana's was not in blood at all, the BCI guy explained when you walk in from outside the dampness on your show leaves a print of you're not on carpet. They have to pull it with fingerprint dust. I doubt Wagner's even knew that was possible.

Yes I think Jake would have noticed, because I don't think lenny had a lot of money to buy shoes so therefore wore the same pair every day until they wore out.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Yeah, I did follow that George referred to different events regarding Tabby. I rewatched that testimony. George didn’t get the opportunity to differentiate.

But the Katie testimony. The murder timeline doesn’t fit with George’s recollection of that morning. Other than Jake was up already which was unusual.

I thought Katy opted out. So we didn't see her testimony or how it lined up with what George said.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

No, definitely agree Leonard Manley is not guilty. Just trying to point out the extent Ws went to point LE in that direction.

It seems they did. IIRC, Jake said as much in his testimony.

 

[91possum]

He was showing him what he had because Billy was there to talk about a drug deal, remember?

I was thinking maybe 2 different things/deals. The grow being a longer term deal that was already going b4 the murder plan, maybe the new barn was involved, and then a second deal, a ruse for the night of the murders.
All just a theory.

The Wags cannot help but lie tho, so this whole idea of a drug deal is probly bs. I honestly dont believe one single word any of them say.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

This is really a good picture of the three of them JBB. Plainly shows the mark on Billys face. Shows how big him and George was too at the time of the murders. Thanks for posting this. This is the best picture I have seen of them at the funerals to date. I hate that smirk on jake's face though.

JMO

It's interesting the different ways people interpret things. I don't see a smirk on Jake's face here, but others do.

 

[justtrish]

I disagree. Find a video that's not degraded. Not many people associated with Angela Wagner are going to have that same tattoo on the same shoulder.

I promise, the jury has the first generation recording of that video, and probably still shots from it.

The window was not rolled up. You can see the shoulder and part of the bicep.

I finally had some time to look for where George himself also said he was in the car at Walmart when his mother bought the shoes. Check out this video

7 hours and 30 minutes in. He says he was in the car with Jake, his niece, and his son. I'd say the photo from the camera showing him and then he himself saying he was in the car means he was in the car.

 

[sunshineray]

Jmo Angela stating that George told her that was his print is one of the biggest reason I believe she is lying. That is information she volunteered to Capena. She went above and beyond to try to put George there. What mother does that? Even for her plea deal that information wasn’t needed, but yet she added that extra detail to try to get a good deal. To mean that statement tells that she is all about self and will lie as much as it takes for herself. Jmo

I don't understand what you mean by "that information wasn't needed"? I would think the absolute whole truth is needed when you enter into a plea agreement. You don't withhold pertinent details of the case, that's not how justice works. The whole ugly truth must come out. I'm sure AW's lawyer explained to her the importance of telling that whole truth, no matter how painful it may be to her motherly sensibilities. That's what I would hope was explained to her...it seems it was, IMO

 

[Niner]

Hey all - I guess no one noticed that we are way over 1,000 posts - so reporting it to a mod! And then I will be back (on new thread) to post the stuff for today.

You're on Niner!! I'm going with Dec. 8th! (Don't know how to do smiley faces, but I'll do the 'wink')

I was going to say Dec. 9th, but than switched to the next week.

Smiley faces - up above where it starts with the big B (bold) - go to the 3rd group where it starts with -looks like a chain to me - the last one there is 3 dots - hit that & then the smiley face - you will get some smilies!

 

[Sillybilly]

Please move over to Thread #86.

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