Struggling with English

[aussiesheila]

You’re wrong K777angel, the note is not a HUGE problem for ALL the intruder did it theories.

The note is actually a vital ingredient of the following theory:

Various people, including one who will later be present at killing enter house at Patsy’s invitation.

One of them goes upstairs and brings JonBenet down into kitchen where people are gathered, feeds her drug laced pineapple that he has brought in for her.

Patsy and friend stay talking in kitchen but the rest go down to basement for some fun and games taking JonBenet with them.

More people arrive later but go directly to basement to join in the sexual abuse of JonBenet, a regular occurrence, ligature rope used as usual. One newcomer to group arrives with stun gun and another in the group freaks out and flees when he sees it about to be used.

When it is used and JonBenet screams, several people panic, one pulls the noose too tight and the other hits her over the head.

Realising they are in deep sh.. they phone another member of the group who happened to be absent at this particular gathering, for help. Advice is that there is not enough time to get rid of body before morning, hide it for the time being and stage a kidnapping. Get Patsy to write a ransom note, which she will need to ‘discover’ the next morning. Make sure the police do not find the body. Will have to wait until tomorrow night to remove and dispose of it.

 

[Voice of Reason]

One of them goes upstairs and brings JonBenet down into kitchen where people are gathered, feeds her drug laced pineapple that he has brought in for her.

If this were true, it would come out in the autopsy. And beyond the autospy, the bowl of pineapple was preserved for future testing. I imagine it would be there, too.

 

[aussiesheila]

If this were true, it would come out in the autopsy. And beyond the autospy, the bowl of pineapple was preserved for future testing. I imagine it would be there, too.

Yes I agree with you, there has been no indication that the pineapple did contain drugs - I was suggesting it as a possibility. It would certainly improve my theory if it was true, but wouldn't disprove it if it wasn't.

Nevertheless, just because it has not been stated by forensics that there were no drugs there does not mean that there definitely weren't. To say that there were no drugs in the pineapple forensics would have had to actually test for the presence of drugs. Does anyone know if they DID test the pineapple for drugs? Anyway it is just a minor point I'm not going to go overboard on it.

 

[Lacy Wood]

"American Justice" on A&E replayed the segment "A Parent's Nightmare" last night at 11:00 EDT. It tells the story of the Kowaliby family whose young daughter was abducted in the night from their Illinois home in 1988. She was found murdered 5 days later some miles away. There was no note, and no evidence that had any rational connection to anyone. A basement window was broken but otherwise there seemed no evidence of an intruder except that the front door was reported open that morning. An investigator appeared to misquote the stepdad's use of the word "incident" to describe what happened as "accident" for prejudicial effect and suggest the parents had to have done it. The investigators words were long on prejudicial inferences but void of actual evidence. Both parents were charged and tried...result, Mom acqutted by directed verict, but stepdad David was convicted of lst degree murder. An appeal produced a reversal based on the shocking lack of evidence for the verdict. A reversal precludes retrial. (No resolution has occured except that an alibi for a mental case uncle of the girl turned out to be false.)

The reason I mention it is that moderator Bill Kurtis spoke at the beginning of the episode and compared it to the Ramsey case. I had to wonder if his and some other opinions and perspectives on the Ramsey case were shaped by the Dowaliby case. It is also very interesting to see the story unfold in light of one's own feelings about the Ramsey case. I for one have suspicions of the Ramsey family, but my friends know well that I am a constant critic of inept police investigations. At the least provocation I can go off on bad investigations from Alfred Dreyfus to Evans-Christy up to the present, a span of over a hundred tears. So what's different about the Ramsey case? I believe it all comes down to the contrdictory duality of someone constructing that "ransom note" but killing the victim and leaving the body in the house. I thought it became obvious as the Dowaliby case facts unfolded. You could follow the presentation of the case with no knowledge of the outcome or bias for or against anyone, and blatant police and prosecutorial bias was quickly apparent. In is interesting as a thought experiment to bolster the evidence (like, add a note or have the body found in the basement) in the Dowaliby case to test one's own reaction to the perception of guilt or innocence of the parent.

Possible relevence? First, because it may have shaped the perspectives of some in the Ramsey case in a way that helps the family. Secondly, it could lead to inferences and comparisons as you hypothetically boost the facts of the case. Last, it shows what really, really bad police work looks like.

 

[Voice of Reason]

You make some excellent points Lacy Wood. However, I wonder if this family had the money the Ramseys had? Also, there were a few key differences that I saw...

She was found murdered 5 days later some miles away...There was no note......the front door was reported open that morning.

Edited to add: I just realized you pointed out the lack of the note and the body placement as well!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Its all right there in the note, all you have to do is read it literally. The partial identity of the killer, the motive, and even a threat of a repeat killing are embedded in the note. All of this strongly suggests an intruder.

 

[tezi]

It's not a ransom note, it's a ransom book. Good gravy, no stranger would take the time to write that much. Plus, the handwriting doesn't exclude Patsy. IMO, Patsy killed JB or knows who did and is covering for them.

 

[Toltec]

The intruder would have had to feed her pineapple.

 

[UKGuy]

K777angel:

The person who wrote the Ransom Note may not be the same person who killed JonBenet.

JonBenet may have eaten the pineapple upstairs? Is there any evidence to suggest it was eaten downstairs? The use of a bowl normally signifies some form of communal sharing. Was there a house party taking place?

A Ramsey associate may have returned after leaving to abuse and murder JonBenet, or it may even have occurred whilst they were indulging in the kind of liberal lifestyle outlined by aussiesheila.

The Ransom Note has obviously been written by an adult to mislead and misdirect the reader to assume JonBenet is still alive.

So why would anyone want to collude in the cover up of the murder of a young 6-year old girl? Well only if they had something to hide!


.

 

[Rainsong]

It's not a ransom note, it's a ransom book. Good gravy, no stranger would take the time to write that much. Plus, the handwriting doesn't exclude Patsy. IMO, Patsy killed JB or knows who did and is covering for them.

Have you ever read the ransom note from the Bobby Franks murder?

Dear Sir:
As you no doubt know by this time, your son has been kidnapped. Allow us to assure you that he is at present well and safe. You need fear no physical harm for him, provided you line up carefully to the following instructions and to such others as you will receive by future communications. Should you, however, disobey any of our instructions, even slightly, his death will be the penalty.
1. For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate with either police authorities or any private agency. Should you already have communicated with the police, allow them to continue their investigations, but do not mention this letter.
2. Secure before noon today $10,000. this money must be composed entirely of old bills of the following denominations: $2000 in $20 bills, $8000 in $50 bills. the money must be old. Any attempt to include new or marked bills will render the entire venture futile.
3. The money should be place in a large cigar box, or if this is impossible, in a heavy cardboard box, securely closed and wrapped in white paper. The wrapping paper should be sealed at all openings with sealing wax.
4. Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, and remain at home after one o'clock. See that the telephone is not in use.
You will receive a further communication instructing you as to your final course.
As a final word of warning, this is an extremely commercial proposition and we are prepared to put our threat into execution should we have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed an infraction of the above instructions.
However, should you carefully follow out our instructions to the letter, we can assure you that you son will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money.
Yours truly,
George Johnson
310 words

Compare to the Ramsey note:

Mr. Ramsey:

Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business but not the country that it serves. At this time we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed, and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache, to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pickup of your daughter.
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement counter-measures and tactics. You stand a 99 percent chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100 percent chance of getting her back.
You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities. Don’t try to grow a brain, John. You are not the only fat cat around so don’t think that killing will be difficult. Don’t underestimate us, John. Use that good, southern common sense of yours. It’s up to you now, John! Victory. S.B.T.C.
371 words

Rainsong

 

[luvbeaches]

This is remarkable.

The question was "Hypothetically, its the middle of the night, you're a member of a small foreign faction, and you just killed a 6 year old in her parents' Colorado home. What is on your mind?"

Were you just going to avoid the question or what?

I answered it. There was no foreign faction involved.

 

[Lacy Wood]

The ransom note from the Franks case posted by Rainsong could hardly more appropriate for her point. It IS a complex and lengthy note. It's amazing the things she seems to have at her fingertips...that note coming from 1924. (For those unfamiliar, it is a classic Clarence Darrow case.) The obvious challenges are that the Loeb-Leopold note was actually seeking money, it was not left in a house with the body, the Franks boy was abducted from a location away from his home, the body hidden so as not to be easily found (though it was later discovered), and the perpetrators viewed the whole thing as a complex game-like challenge. Interestingly, from my perspective, I see the "complex game-like" factor as a match to the Ramsey case in a way not favorable to PR/JR. The view I have previously suggested is the possibility that the note was written by PR a day or days ahead of a planned staged abduction of JonBenet (to create an event JonBenet could later use as a promotional factor in pageants...that scheme falling apart by accident, an accomplice who had other agendas, or other unknown factor.)

So thanks Rainsong for reminding us of that case. The complex game-like scheme aspect associated with the note is something to think about.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The author of the Franks note's English is better. Also there are no phrases in the Franks note that cannot be easily understood. The Ramsey note has that one line that defies explanation: "You are not the only fat cat around so don’t think that killing will be difficult." Killing who? Who are the other fat cats?

 

[Rainsong]

So thanks Rainsong for reminding us of that case. The complex game-like scheme aspect associated with the note is something to think about.

Both the Leopold and Loeb note and the Ramsey note are close in length, but what I found quite interesting is that Leopold and Loeb killed their victim, Bobby Franks, and still mailed the ransom note.

A second aspect of interest to me was the motivation behind the Franks abduction/murder. Leopold and Loeb were both highly intelligent, privileged young men. Even though they did mail the ransom note and intended to collect the money, the ransom was not their primary motivation. They thought they were so much more intelligent than the police--and everyone else--they could commit the perfect crime and get away with it.

Rainsong

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"I can answer in one word: Victory - victory - at all costs, victory, in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Churchill, 1940

 

[skybluepink]

I'm with Lacy Wood on this, as my previous posts suggest. The most reasonable explanation of the note is that it was written beforehand. And, again, the writer (PR, IMO) may well have been looking right at a copy of the Leopold-Loeb note and photos of the two well-dressed perpetrators, which could have been the seed of "the two gentlemen."

I also agree that at least part of the plan was to capitalize on the publicity value of an attempted kidnapping. A possible additional trigger was the engagement of John's daughter. Maybe PR was concerned that John would be forking over "their" money on a lavish wedding--and then underwriting grandchildren. Her weird comment, reported elsewhere, that she wore the same outfit on the 26th (but didn't need a shower!) because she was meeting the fiance for the first time and wanted to look nice may have been a reflection of that--i.e., an attempt to deflect any speculation.

I think the central purpose of the note was for JOHN to believe JBR had been kidnapped--so that, for one thing, he would cancel the trip, which PR wanted to get out of for several selfish but mundane reasons. Using her expertise in manipulating JBR's appearance, she practices on the life-size doll she bought JBR for Xmas. She then stages the kidnapping, having fortified JBR with pineapple to sustain her. Her plan could have been that while John's out withdrawing money from his account, PR "finds" JBR--and maybe spills coffee on the ransom note so that it can't be analyzed, later "confides" to the stepkids that their father had to shell out $118,000 and is now in financial straights, soaks up sympathy & attention, etc.

However, something goes wrong--she pulls the rope too tight, or JBR recognizes her--and she panics. In desperation, she decides to follow through with the charade and hope for the best. No sense trying to talk him out of calling police, as she'd hoped to do originally; her best course is to play dumb.

She quickly calls all her friends to come over so that she won't have to be alone with John. Since he's innocent, she can follow his lead on how to behave--but that blows up as his suspicions grow.

When Burke's possible involvement is suggested, she's saved. The lawyers shield the whole family, and Mr. & Mrs. R spend the next 8 years dissembling.

 

[tipper]

"I can answer in one word: Victory - victory - at all costs, victory, in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Churchill, 1940

You think Churchill killed her?

 

[Toltec]

You think Churchill killed her?

Tee Hee!

I believe what he/she is getting at is that someone declared Victory!

 

[capps]

You think Churchill killed her?

Now THAT made me laugh out loud .... something I haven't done in a while. Good one Tipper!

 

[BlueCrab]

You think Churchill killed her?

Ward or Winston?